M62Tu p0011 p0021

[mjbrokster]

Thanks for the tip JimLev. I found your videos on youtube and didn't see anything that I didn't already do. I found that the alignment tools for the sensor wheel was off as compared to the alignment hole in teh timing cover. after ensuring that the timing cover is properly forced down level with the head, I have been using that hole for reference. I feel more comfortable with that hole because it is fixed in relationship to the sensor. I turned down the end of an M8 stud to be sure there is no slop when it is threaded through the cover and reaches the sensor wheel.

I still have the tools from Bimmertoolrental.com (mine now, since I'm so slow) and as I mention, the cam blocks slip on as they should when I'm at TDC and pulling the bank 1 intake cam full retard. This tells me that the mechanical timing of the cams with relation to the crank is spot on. That's why ive been playing with sensor wheel positioning as described earlier in this thread.

After sleeping on it, I think the advanced position that I'm seeing in INPA is telling me something else. If the cam was actually advanced, the blocks wouldn't slip on. At idle, the oil pressure should push the cams full retard, so If I didn't get that right, the oil pressure would retard the cams further than expected and I would get a "retarded" reading from INPA.

So, something must be pushing the cam advanced. Maybe a stuck VANOS solenoid? Next thing I will do is swap VANOS solenoids from bank 1 to bank 2 to see if anything changes.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah, to your other question, no the cam blocks didn't move, they stayed flush to the head because I held the cam in place with the 27mm wrench. Actually have to pull it the same direction as tightening the cam bolt, otherwise the cam blocks would come up off the head (credit to: Randy in earlier post).

[mjbrokster]

So, I pulled the vanos solenoid on bank one and it had a really strange "hump" as I was unscrewing it from the distribution piece. Then it would not pull free after completely unscrewed. I had to kind of jiggle it in an out to get it free. When I inspected it, the end is scarred and the surface is damaged. Picture attached. I guess I'll have to disassemble it and remove the distribution piece to see if something is in there. I have a suspiscion that a piece of the Cam Seal Rings may have broken and gotten in there. I did replace them, so either a piece of the old one or maybe even the new ones.
Sounds like a plausible reason for P0011 right?
Vanos_scar.JPG

[JimLev]

The rings on the end of the intake cam are above the vanos cylinder and captured by the top part of the distribution unit.
Hard to imagine the scaring came from the rings, however something made it difficult to remove.
Have you looked into the hole to see if anything is in there?

[mjbrokster]

Right about the rings unless I unknowingly broke a piece of the old ones when removing the distribution piece or a piece of the new one when reinstalling the distribution piece. The old ones were pretty brittle.

I haven't been able to look in there, everything is still assembled and can't get my head in there. Was going to pull it apart to make sure nothing is stuck out of sight this coming weekend. Maybe I can find a mirror in the mean time.

Couple questions.
1 - should solenoid be replaced? I lean toward yes, maybe even the distribution piece.
2 - can the gasket be reused? It's got maybe 1 mile on it. I suppose if I'm buying the other stuff I may as well buy another gasket to be certain.

[mjbrokster]

So I got the distribution piece off this morning and found pieces of the old cam seal rings. They must have broken off and gotten lodged in the distribution piece way back when I first pulled it apart. Due to scoring, I ordered a new solenoid and distribution piece. When they arrive I'll retime and see if I have a good running car. My fingers are crossed!

Hmm, can't add pics from a phone?

[JimLev]

Thanks for the info.
The distribution gaskets are metal with a raised center section that gets crushed when you bolt the distribution unit back on, that provides the seal.
I don't know how well it would seal if you reused it.

[mjbrokster]

IMG_0100.JPGIMG_0101.JPG
Pieces of the cam seal rings (old ones, the new ones are all in tact) and the scoring in the distribution housing.
And yeah, I ordered a gasket too when I order the other parts.

[mjbrokster]

Got it all back together with a new vanos solenoid and distribution housing. Starts up super smooth and the rough values are all less than 100. But - Still the P0011. Arghh! I only want to take the valve cover off ONE more time to adjust the sensor wheel (cams are timed correctly). Below is what I believe to be my bank 1 cam value - about 8 degrees advanced? Maybe that magic 1/16 of an inch Ive read so much about? I think it's CCW based on my value right?

apiJob("ME72KWP0","status_vanos_nw_lage_einlass_tv _1","","")
Satz : 0
OBJECT = me72kwp0
SAETZE = 1
JOBNAME = status_vanos_nw_lage_einlass_tv_1
VARIANTE = ME72KWP0
JOBSTATUS =
UBATTCURRENT = -1
UBATTHISTORY = -1
IGNITIONCURRENT = -1
IGNITIONHISTORY = -1
Satz : 1
JOB_STATUS = OKAY
STAT_VANOS_NW_LAGE_EINLASS_TV_1_WERT = 7.882416E+001
STAT_VANOS_NW_LAGE_EINLASS_TV_1_EINH = %TV

[mjbrokster]

Drove the car tonight, and it seems to run well. I took Randy's advice and used Testo for a live view of the cam angles - they actually look fine! graph attached, both banks close to zero, with bank 1 slightly more positive than bank 2.Attachment 565611

However, I noticed that testo is looking at the cam angles "Vanos_NW_Lage_Einlass", or Vanos camshaft position intake as measured in degrees. What the error 33 (P0011) is set for is the
"vanos_nw_lage_einlass_tv_1", or vanos camshaft position intake duty cycle as measured in %. In my case I have 72.95%
33 Camshaft control
Error counter : 1
Logistic counter: 40
Engine speed 880.00 /min
Engine temperature 36.00 Grd C
wnwi1_u -1.00 Grad KW
tanwrhf_0_A 72.95 % TV

So, I'm stumped here. My cam angles appear to be OK - so timing set fine. Duty cycle is 72.95% - what does that mean? Could my sensor be faulty? But then how would it read my angles...

[JimLev]

I'd guess the trigger wheel is slightly off.

[mjbrokster]

After further reading, I believe the interpretation is: The DME is supplying a 73% duty cycle to the solenoid to acheive a near 0 degree position of the intake cam at idle. Right?

So which direction would reduce the duty cycle of the solenoid? is 100% full advance or full retard? that way I know which way to adjust the trigger wheel. I really only want to do this one more time.

Oh, and out of curiosity, what is the duty cycle limit before the code is set?

[mjbrokster]

Some more investigating today. In order to see what I assume a 0% duty cycle on the solenoid would look like, I unplugged it and started it up. Threw a code of course, but it was the Vanos Angle I was interested in.
Testo Graph showed the angle varying between -0.2 to +0.3 - again VANOS solenoied disconnected.
160306testocapture.JPG

Seems like everything is where it should be if the VANOS solenoid is unplugged or if it is at 73% duty cycle. I can't make sense of it. I my just move the trigger wheel a touch in each direction until it clears up - trial and error like. Oh, well.

[mjbrokster]

Could anyone post the test graphs of the VANOS angle from a car without a P0011 code? I am assuming mine are OK, but I've never seen any others.

[mjbrokster]

Just to close the loop - I have cleared my P0011 code! Some lessons I learned along the way, but did not get explicitly from reading the various threads.
* The cam positions I was looking at are NOT the adaption values. Assumption - these are calculated positions using the adaption values as a kind of correction factor.
* the adaption values have 4 values per bank - Flanke1,2,3,4...
- If you don't have all your ediabas prg's under c:\EDIABAS\Ecu\ - you will only see the SERIAL jobs in TESTO. The SERIAL function does not show the adaptions, that's why I was stuck on the position. (all of my EDIABAS, INPA, and TESTO installations are under C:\EC APPS\... )
- once I placed the appropriate prg file under c:\EDIABAS\Ecu\- I could access the adaptions.
- got these hints from another thread that was also useful with pictures of the adaption value output here: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ontrol-summary
* When setting the cam timing - I was so focused on the cam block being flush with the head at the spark plug well, I missed the other side being up off the head.
* For me - I was only able to keep the intake cam block flush during torqueing by applying downward force on the cam block with my left hand while simultaneously torqueing the bolt with my right. I have seen that there may once have been a piece that attached in the #4 spark plug hole and held the blocks down - that would probably have been useful to me since I did this alone.
* For me - it was also way easier to achieve a flush front timing cover by applying manual pressure to the cover while torqueing the bolts. I could not achieve it with the double washer valve cover method.
* I only used the hole in the upper timing cover to set the sensor wheel position. Since this hole is always fixed in relationship to the cam position sensor, it makes sense to use it. I used an M8 stud threaded through the hole with the tip turned down a bit to match the hole in the sensor wheel. For me, this was much less sloppy than a drill bit.

From my lessons learned above, it's probably obvious that my problem was that the bank 1 intake cam timing was off. As mentioned above, the timing block was off the head on the intake side which meant I had over-retarded the cam timing. I reset the cam timing making sure that the entire intake cam block was flush with the head and now no P0011 code. Great adaption values ranging from -1.5 to +1.

I may have restated the obvious, but hopefully it helps someone struggling like I was.

[JimLev]

Good to hear you have it fixed. With the cam block not flush the trigger wheel was slightly off.
I made up these hold down tools for the cam blocks, they screw into the #4 & 8 sparkplug holes.
The double nuts are locked together and used to screw the plug in. Then you adjust the upper nuts to press the bar down on the cam blocks.
A number of guys here have used them.

CamLockHolder1.JPG

CamLockHolder3.JPG

[mjbrokster]

Exactly, something like that.

[cazal740i]

This worked on my friends E38 with P0011 code( Bank 1 timing over advance) He kept coming up with the code after timing the engine. He swapped CPS Solenoids and purchased new CPS OEM sensors. Still the dreaded P0011 code appeared. I went to his house and re-timed the engine to spec...Both banks had 0.00 continunity.. He put engine back together and the code re appeared. He was about to give up until I Saw this link and had him open up bank 1 and move his timing wheel a little more advance....Tricked worked!!!! No more codes....Kudos to the OP

[JimLev]

It really isn't a trick. It just shows that he didn't have either the cams set and locked in to prevent them from moving or the vanos wasn't fully retarded. You won't always get an ohm reading or tone from your meter when the vanos is fully retarded.

[Jahcure]

My bad ...

[Fx323i]

Randy has put some very very interesting information in here. Thank you very much, although this thread is a bit old, it is definitely not outdated. I have just two questions for more clarification:
- In Testo, there are four values of adaptation on each bank. Which one to use? I went with STAT_NW_B1_FL1_EINH and STAT_NW_B1_FL2_EINH as I suppose it only reads from some other point on the trigger wheel to verify reliability of the read data. On the tested values, the number after shortcut FL (Flag?) varies from 1 to 4 on each bank. The measured values are a little bit different, but within 1 degree I would say.
- If the tolerance crankshaft to camshaft position is 10 degrees, does it mean a range (-5 to +5), which I would find logical as speaking about positive adaptation is retarded and negative is advanced?

I hope I will resolve my Vanos issues this week after a year. I did about 60 of these engines in the past year, never had a problem like that. With my own car, I get this strange 33 and 34 code, everything is multiple-checked with the same tools as always. I read the adaptation values and there were about 10 (Bank 1) and 11 (Bank 2) degrees. This means I should turn the trigger wheels ca 10 degrees clockwise and be good to go. I am wondering what caused this problem anyway.

One more strange thing - the first time I did the timing on my car, the refurbished VANOS did not pass the continuity test. Nothing strange, it is quite normal. The forth time it passed when I just tested it. I guess there was still some mess in the cams which went to the VANOS and then it flushed away.

[timc930]

Guys, I am working on a 2005 Range Rover with a M62TU, doing Chains, Rails, and Vanos (rebuild, Beisan). Having a problem with the Trigger Wheel on Bank 5-8 remaining in position when torquing the nut. The Trigger Wheel moves approx 1-2mm counter clockwise, and makes it difficult to remove the tool (German Auto Solutions) and once removed the tool will not fit back in hole. NP at all on the Bank 1-4. It actually looks like the VANOS is moving, as I can see the VANOS housing move just a tad when torquing. Is this small movement enough to throw a code?

[JimLev]

Yes, you will most likely get a code.
I don't have the same alignment tools as you. Can you post a pic of the GAS trigger wheel tool?
The center section of the vanos should be fully retarded (CCW) when you torque the center vanos to cam bolt, cams still locked.
If you can't get a wrench on the 24mm nut you could always score the vanos and trigger wheel with its correct position so you know where it's suppose to be located.

[Gootsy]

I just got through with adjusting my bank 2 trigger wheel to get rid of a P0021 code and I happened to notice the vanos move as well.

I'd say that it's totally a possibility that it could cause a code. Maybe that's what caused mine in the first place after I did the whole timing procedure on the engine.

[Gootsy]

I'd very much like to thank Randy and all the others who have contributed to this thread in the past!


I had a P0021 code after doing a timing chain guide job on my car and following the timing procedure to a T.

Bank 2 had positive adaptation values right around 10 degrees so I went in and turned the trigger wheel roughly what I believed to be 10 degrees clockwise.

That sure enough solved the problem. No more code!

Now the adaptation values for bank 2 are right around 3 degrees. (So I guess I ended up turning the trigger wheel around 7 degrees after all)


Note:

When I had the code it wouldn't show up all the time, it was kind of on and off.

So if anything outside of 10 degrees crank really is the point in which the code is thrown then that would explain why it did't always show up. (Adaptation values must have been just under 10 degrees sometimes)

[JimLev]

Glad it worked out just fine, hopefully it will for Timc too.