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Thread: Steering groan, grinding, juddering at parking speeds.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Sydney, NSW, Australia
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    '96 Euro M3, '95 328i

    Steering groan, grinding, juddering at parking speeds.

    My car makes a steering groan, grinding, juddering noise at parking speeds that vibrates loudly through the car. It happens when turning back from tight a lock.

    I have seen several threads on forums where the poster has been shouted down by people jumping to blame low or dirty fluid or a failed power steering pump. This is not the classic pump whine or fluid cavitation that I know very well from a string of old cars. This is a very dry, abrasive sound. It is not dissimilar to pulling off slowly with the parking brake on.

    I have replaced the P/S pump with a ZF factory reconditioned one. The fluid is obviously new, it is properly bled and there are no leaks. There was also a slight pump whine on full lock before, which this fixed. I replaced the complete tie rod assemblies and checked the rack for play while they were disconnected. It appears to have no problems but I am not ruling it out as low speeds and big tyres are a different story than wiggling things by hand. I have re-torqued the mounting bolts and all other suspension nuts I can think of. On axle stands, the tiniest movement of the road wheels results in movement of the steering wheel and vice versa. There is no noticeable play at all. The car drives perfectly at road speeds. I have also replaced the inner wheel arch liners and a few of the underbody plastics. There was no sign of any rubbing. The car also has new lower control arm bushings and fairly new Bilstein Spring struts (30k kms).

    The only things I am left with are: A problem with the rack other than leaks or loose bushings or the strut top mounts. (I have also had those off when I replaced the springs and the bearings seemed smooth).

    Any ideas anyone, please? It is driving me mad.
    Last edited by chriscotech; 03-14-2013 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Ontario, Canada
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    603
    My Cars
    1994 M3 Eurospec (25/45)
    Diff? - can you isolate where the sound is coming from?

    1994 M3 Eurospec (Canadian Edition) #25 (http://www.bmwmregistry.com/detail.php?id=12244)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    Australia
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    1988 M3
    if you raise front of car and turn wheels left right is it making same noise ?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Nanaimo, B.C., Canada
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    EuroS50B30,e83,Frontier
    Have you checked your balljoints?
    "There are bold drivers and there are old drivers, but there are no bold, old drivers."

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Sydney, NSW, Australia
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    '96 Euro M3, '95 328i
    Sorry everyone, I have been off the radar and didn't get any notification of replies to this thread for some reason. I was about to bump it.

    The noise is definitely from the front and seems to be the driver's side. The tie rod assemblies are brand new but not the control arms. I have tried to find play in the outer and centre ball joints but they don't seem to have any. If the car is raised there is no noise. It has to be under the heavy load of steering at slow speeds.

    The only other symptom is that under really hard (I mean emergency stop style) braking, there is a light knock from the driver's side front wheel somewhere.

    Could it be the steering rack? Are they a high fail item on the M3?

    I'll try and get somebody to video it. It isn't subtle.

    Thanks for your help.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Ontario, Canada
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    603
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    1994 M3 Eurospec (25/45)
    Checked wheel bearings?

    1994 M3 Eurospec (Canadian Edition) #25 (http://www.bmwmregistry.com/detail.php?id=12244)

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    '96 Euro M3, '95 328i
    Good point but yes, there is zero play in them and they are smooth and quiet. Pretty sure they are o.k.

  8. #8
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    balljoints can have defects aside from freeplay. that goes for wheel bearings and tie rods as well. have someone steer the wheel from lock to lock (vehicle on the ground) and just put your hand on the balljoints, tie rods and rack. chances are if its making so much noise you will feel it. wheel bearing sounds unlikely, but you can check that while the vehicle is on stands by using a stethoscope. have somebody spin the wheels and listen for roughness. compare both sides to determine which (if any) are defective.
    Last edited by Corey Milne; 06-07-2013 at 11:44 PM.
    "There are bold drivers and there are old drivers, but there are no bold, old drivers."

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    It's interesting. I had a friend help me and did all of the tests you listed a couple of weeks ago but found nothing definitive. The really annoying thing was that it was behaving much better that day. I don't have many friends so I haven't had a chance to have another go.

    I am fairly sure the noise is coming from the right hand side (where the driver sits, over here ). I still need to shoot and post a video of what is going on. It is a weird one. I have read posts about this problem with E46 328i cars specifically. In some cases BMW had replaced P/S pumps, racks and other parts under warranty but not found the cause.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    My Cars
    1999 E46 323i
    Quote Originally Posted by chriscotech View Post
    It's interesting. I had a friend help me and did all of the tests you listed a couple of weeks ago but found nothing definitive. The really annoying thing was that it was behaving much better that day. I don't have many friends so I haven't had a chance to have another go.

    I am fairly sure the noise is coming from the right hand side (where the driver sits, over here ). I still need to shoot and post a video of what is going on. It is a weird one. I have read posts about this problem with E46 328i cars specifically. In some cases BMW had replaced P/S pumps, racks and other parts under warranty but not found the cause.
    Did you ever fix this? myE46 is doing exactly the same thing. Also in Sydney.

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    '96 Euro M3, '95 328i
    Sadly, no. I have fixed many things on this car which were neglected in the log book servicing, but that one really has me stumped. Since I last posted on this thread I did the following:

    • Swapped the steering rack for a low km one that I also replaced all seals and bushings on.
    • Replaced both control arms and bushings
    • Replaced both strut top mounts
    • Wheel alignment (obviously)
    • Replaced front brake rotors and pads
    • Rebuilt all callipers with new seals

    I did all of this work with OEM parts and a calibrated torque wrench, inspectind everything carefully when I was doing the work. There is no change. Although I have tested the wheel bearings for play and noise, this could still be a possibility, but I doubt it. I also have a pair of new engine mounts waiting to go on. Because of the tight tolerances under the S50 engines, it is possible for the sump to contact the cross member or X-brace (I have one on this car). I think the mounts would need to be pretty compressed for that though and I doubt mine are that bad. I also have a higher milage E36 328i. That has a bit of play in the rack and is generally more worn but it has never had this problem, not even on full lock.

    For now, I have given up, and I hate doing that on an otherwise perfect car. I hope you have better luck than I have had. I will let you know if anything changes. Please do the same if you manage to solve your problem

  12. #12
    Join Date
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    1998 M3 Vert, 1992 318i
    Hey I'm curious as to what you used to get the seals out of the inside of the rack? I was looking at mine a bit and I can't figure out how to press them in and out. Also, did you do bearings when you rebuilt it? Were you able to get the top seal where the column connects? It wasn't in my kit.
    Caprica Junkie

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    New Zealand
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    1996 E36 M3 Evo
    Quote Originally Posted by chriscotech View Post
    Sadly, no. I have fixed many things on this car which were neglected in the log book servicing, but that one really has me stumped.
    Sway bar end links...
    '96 M3, S50B32, 6MT
    + good stuff

  14. #14
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    '96 Euro M3, '95 328i
    Sorry, I forgot to mention them. Yes they are new too. I also did an experiment and disconnected the sway bar temporarily by removing the links but the noise didn't go away.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by boarder2k7 View Post
    Hey I'm curious as to what you used to get the seals out of the inside of the rack? I was looking at mine a bit and I can't figure out how to press them in and out. Also, did you do bearings when you rebuilt it? Were you able to get the top seal where the column connects? It wasn't in my kit.
    They are all good questions. To get the seals out I got an old tapered wooden chair leg and cut it to the point where it was the right diameter to work as a drift. They are not easy to get out. You can also reshape the end of a long punch and carefully wedge it behind the old seal and deform it to get it out. Obviously you need to be really careful not to scratch the bore forward of the seal.

    Like most of them, the first kit I bought didn't have the bushings, which partly defeats the idea of rebuilding it in my opinion. It also had the wrong type of piston ring, that didn't fit in the groove (photo). I found another kit from a company in the UK that was right and had the bushings. The kit they sent did have the top cap for the spindle, though you can't see it in the photo here. They were called Jay Gee and were very helpful in finding the right parts.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by chriscotech; 04-17-2015 at 10:54 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    Perth, Western Australia,
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    3
    My Cars
    1996 BMW M3 Evo
    What power steering hose do you run? Is it OEM?

    My car makes a similar noise (I think). The reason for my groaning noise I am told is that the power steering hose used is not an OEM part. The OEM part apparently has a different internal construction which eliminates the groan. The source of this info is from the previous owner who was recommended a non OEM replacement which resulted in the groan. My mechanic confirms this as well. He was an Audi technician for years and apparently it's the same with Audis who have had non OEM replacements.

    I would like to change mine because the groaning noise is horrible and makes people turn around in the carpark for the wrong reasons. However, the OEM replacement is about $350 Australian.

  16. #16
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    '96 Euro M3, '95 328i
    I hadn't heard that before but mine is OEM.

    I actually have a spare OEM RHD pressure hose (part # 32412227680). It is in good sound condition but it has had some pitting on the metal parts. Nothing that would compromise it at all. You can have it for A$100 plus postage if you are interested.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    04 M3 / 97 M3 / 87 325is
    Bumping an old thread as I came across it while searching.

    I have the EXACT same symptom on my e46 M3. Driver’ side (LHD). Running a square wheel setup (Style 67 rears all around)

    All new parts, including struts except for the strut top mounts. Those are Ground Control Street version.

    I thought it was the mounts and ordered new bearings from them but the noise is still there.

    I can make the noise/feeling go away for a couple of days if I hit the center strut nut with an impact, which makes me think its related to the strut top mounts. But reading that the OP replaced them with no change makes me think.

    Did the OP fix the problem without selling the car?

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