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Thread: Dual Fuel Pump set up: DIY 1996 e36 (alternative setup)

  1. #101
    Join Date
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    90 325
    Quite the ugly day yesterday for track time down here, don't think was much better up there? Were you able to get out and test it?
    Back into a BMW, this time a track rat....and it won't be BMW powered and no, not a V8 either!
    Couldn't help myself, boosted e36 m52 street car in progress also!

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by exvitermini2 View Post
    Quite the ugly day yesterday for track time down here, don't think was much better up there? Were you able to get out and test it?
    Actually it was pretty nice day yesterday at NJMP. It was a bit windy and little bit more warmth wouldn't hurt, but we couldn't complain. It was dry and sunny, unlike later on during night and into today, which was just pouring rain.

    So on Sunday me and my cousin in his Warsteiner paint scheme e36 M3 had our first track event this season at NJMP Thunderbolt. First couple of sessions were so, so and as at any first track day of the season, shaking the rust off. After that it was all back in business and lots and lots of fun.

    One of my main anticipation points was to obviously perform a real test of my new surge tank set up. I'm glad that my cousin was able to make this event in his car, which still has the same dual pump in tank set up as I had prior to the latest upgrade, because typically him and I would start fuel starvation at the same time with the same fuel level - anywhere from half tank to quarter tank - depending on the track and how hard we are pushing.

    This time around after few sessions when his fuel level went down to just below the 1/2 mark, he started having the usual starvation and had to fuel up before the next session. My car on the other hand did not have any signs of any fuel starvations at the same fuel level. So I was pretty happy, but not 100% certain yet. At the end of next session I came in with just under1/4 of the tank of fuel remaining without any problems. Now I was feeling more confident that my solution is already showing huge improvement, because by that time I would already start having fuel starvation issues and so far it was good.

    Before the next session I was a bit worried as I never went out to the track with less than 1/4 of fuel in my tank and I did not want to have it run out on me and be that guy who needs to be towed in because of no gas So out I went. After couple of laps my low fuel light came on and still no starvation problems. I get few more laps in and at the end of the straight, before T1 I'm checking my fuel gauge and I'm seeing that my needle is now barely touching the low fuel light. At this point I decided to get as hard of a lap as I can to see if I can push the system as far as possible.

    After pushing as hard as I could for that lap I did not get a single sign of any fuel starvation issues that I would have long before these low levels. I looked at my gauge right before the track exit and I saw that now the needle was way past the low fuel light and I immediately pulled off the track into the pits. I knew I that likely would not make another lap on the remaining fuel.

    Before shutting the engine off in the pits I took this picture:



    I think this can now be called a Success!!!! I am extremely happy that my system passed the real test at the track and worked flawlessly. I could not be more happier about it. The days of required half tank fuel level are now seem to be the thing of the past!

    Now I would love to try and attend another track day that is coming up in May at NJMP Lightning to run that extremely long right-hander, but I don't foresee it being any issue at all after my positive experience yesterday.

    Here are few shots of my cousin's Warsteiner theme car next to mine. We are all packed up at the end of the day and my splitter is already off.







    - 96 328is 6.0L. (LS1 to LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ad.php?2098938)
    - 96 328is 5.7L. (LS1 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1289987)
    - 95 ///M3 6.0L. (LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1619249)

    - 97 ///M3. (e46 Fender Flares/track car build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1727098)
    - 96 328is (Dual Fuel Pump to Surge Tank thread: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ad.php?1964025)

  3. #103
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    The surge tank is always a good solution, just more complicated. I ran the Bimmerworld dual fuel pump style set up and had fuel starvation just below 1/2 tank on long right handers. I moved the drivers side fuel pump to the back and outboard and have not had a fuel starvation issue since. I have run it down into the reserve on the track but haven't tested as far down as you have. I've tested it lower on the street.

    Sent from my GTX3582R
    '97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.

  4. #104
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    Congrats! You worked hard on that one!


    '97 M3/4

  5. #105
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    Excellent results!!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chikinhed View Post
    The surge tank is always a good solution, just more complicated. I ran the Bimmerworld dual fuel pump style set up and had fuel starvation just below 1/2 tank on long right handers. I moved the drivers side fuel pump to the back and outboard and have not had a fuel starvation issue since. I have run it down into the reserve on the track but haven't tested as far down as you have. I've tested it lower on the street.
    Can you provide a little more detail of what you did?

  6. #106
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    sterling hts, michigan
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    Awesome results man! Is that the Harbor Freight trailer? And which hitch are you running? Sorry for going off topic!

  7. #107
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    96 328is 6.0L
    Yes, it is Harborfreight trailer. The hitch is Curt. Here is the pic of the label

    Last edited by bimerok; 04-22-2015 at 08:54 PM.
    - 96 328is 6.0L. (LS1 to LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ad.php?2098938)
    - 96 328is 5.7L. (LS1 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1289987)
    - 95 ///M3 6.0L. (LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1619249)

    - 97 ///M3. (e46 Fender Flares/track car build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1727098)
    - 96 328is (Dual Fuel Pump to Surge Tank thread: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ad.php?1964025)

  8. #108
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    Mar 2013
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    Raleigh, NC
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    1994 325is
    Bimerok

    Great work. However it will not work. I think you just got lucky or the track was kind. I have a 94 325is that I race in Chumpcar. I installed this surge tank http://www.ecstuning.com/ES2794488/?...7VoaAlEX8P8HAQ just as you described and experienced fuel starvation at just under half a tank at Road Atlanta and VIR. The overflow from the surge tank activates the siphon pump. As soon as the fuel level in the surge tank is below the return to the driver side tank the siphon stops working. We ran out of gas on at the end of the back straight.

    Chikenhed,

    How did you move your second pump back and outward?

    Thanks.

  9. #109
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    Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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    '97 M3
    I made a bracket for the fuel pump shown in the picture below. I also drilled som holes in the feet of the bracket (not shown). I used a 1ft length of submersible fuel injection hose to connect the fuel pump to the stock fuel pump holder. I used an aerospace fuel tank two part sealant (PR890 B1/2) to 'glue' the bracket to the bottom of the tank. It is positioned near the back and to the outside so that under acceleration it will be submersed in fuel, especially on the long R/H sweepers. Both pumps are running in parallel so that if one pump runs dry in a corner the check valves in the pumps will ensure the fuel from the submersed pump will still supply fuel. It's worked great so far and I've run it below a 1/4 tank. I use to run out of gas on long R/H sweepers at just below 1/2 a tank or if I was going WOT below a 1/4 tank.

    One of these looks pricey but promising.

    https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/hydramat/
    Last edited by chikinhed; 05-25-2015 at 06:41 PM.
    '97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug1 View Post
    Bimerok

    Great work. However it will not work. I think you just got lucky or the track was kind. I have a 94 325is that I race in Chumpcar. I installed this surge tank http://www.ecstuning.com/ES2794488/?...7VoaAlEX8P8HAQ just as you described and experienced fuel starvation at just under half a tank at Road Atlanta and VIR. The overflow from the surge tank activates the siphon pump. As soon as the fuel level in the surge tank is below the return to the driver side tank the siphon stops working. We ran out of gas on at the end of the back straight.
    Well, I think the picture below shows that it does work and works pretty well... I ran the track with my cousin and our cars have pretty much identical starvation issues, except with my surge tank it ran flawless all the way down to empty. I will get a chance to reconfirm it at another track in a month or so as my attempt 3 weeks ago left me with broken diff after first session and about 3/4 tank of fuel.

    I don't know what's wrong with your setup or the kit that you got, but there are too many variables that can cause your setup to fail. Your tank is square instead of round, your surge tank fuel pump may be more potent than the one supplying fuel from the main tank (thinking this one more likely to cause issue), for some reason you had all of your fuel on driver's side instead of the passenger, which is red flag number one for your setup...

    I suspect that you are using more powerful pump in your surge tank and the pump in the main tank can't keep up, making your system unbalanced... Look into that and I'm sure you will be able to solve your problem.


    - 96 328is 6.0L. (LS1 to LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ad.php?2098938)
    - 96 328is 5.7L. (LS1 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1289987)
    - 95 ///M3 6.0L. (LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1619249)

    - 97 ///M3. (e46 Fender Flares/track car build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1727098)
    - 96 328is (Dual Fuel Pump to Surge Tank thread: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ad.php?1964025)

  11. #111
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    Since the return from the engine routes to the surge tank the amount of flow or size of pump to the engine doesn't matter. If the level of the surge drops below the return to drivers side tank, the siphon becomes inoperable. If you then take a sequence of turns that sloshes all fuel to the drivers side you are also no longer filling the surge. I think the best thing to do is to have dual pumps feeding the surge tank.

  12. #112
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    It might be in your case. One of my goals was to avoid having 3 pumps and so far it is working out good for me. Again, if I will encounter any problems with my system down the road, I will report it here as I did after my dual pump setup failed to fix my issue.

    I still think there is something wrong/unbalanced with your setup. You ran out of fuel at the end of a straight away, where your tank should've been refilled by that time. All of your fuel was on the driver's side, which is not right. Either that or you are driving some very unique track/circumstance that causes your failure.

    When you send return fuel down the syphone system, it still goes to the passanger's side, while syphoning any additional fuel from the driver's side. It sounds like this is not happening in your case. While I had my syphone out of the car, I played with it using water from the garden hose and a bucket. The slightest flow into the system goes straight over the passanger's side, while sucking water out of thebucket with what seems even more amount that is being put in as a return flow.
    - 96 328is 6.0L. (LS1 to LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ad.php?2098938)
    - 96 328is 5.7L. (LS1 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1289987)
    - 95 ///M3 6.0L. (LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1619249)

    - 97 ///M3. (e46 Fender Flares/track car build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1727098)
    - 96 328is (Dual Fuel Pump to Surge Tank thread: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ad.php?1964025)

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bimerok View Post

    I still think there is something wrong/unbalanced with your setup. You ran out of fuel at the end of a straight away, where your tank should've been refilled by that time. All of your fuel was on the driver's side, which is not right. Either that or you are driving some very unique track/circumstance that causes your failure.

    When you send return fuel down the syphone system, it still goes to the passanger's side, while syphoning any additional fuel from the driver's side. It sounds like this is not happening in your case. While I had my syphone out of the car, I played with it using water from the garden hose and a bucket. The slightest flow into the system goes straight over the passanger's side, while sucking water out of thebucket with what seems even more amount that is being put in as a return flow.

    You are correct that fuel returned to the driver side tank goes through the siphon to the passenger tank. The returned fuel will draw driver side fuel with it as passes through the siphon pump. The problem is that this process completely stops as soon as the fuel stops returning from the surge tank to the drivers tank.

    If my problem were related to being unbalanced it wouldn't wait for the tank to be half empty and right hand turns.

    Good luck at your next event. At leas you can just add fuel if necessary. In my case it is requiring fuel stops every 70 minutes or so.

  14. #114
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    e36 332i
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rG97UuVgmQ I saw this at PRI, thinking about throwing this on the drivers side with a transfer pump. It should always be filling up the passenger side main pump with fuel to feed the engine.

  15. #115
    Join Date
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    Ottawa, ON, Canada
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    e90 M3,X5,e46 racer
    I have a surge tank setup in my e46. Yours seems overly complicated with the internal pump. I have 2 e36 pumps in the OE tank, each feeding the surge tank. Then at the bottom of the tank is a line to an inline pump that feeds the engine. Return from the engine goes back to the surge tank, and an overflow from the surge tank goes back to the OE tank. Same plumbing as yours essentially, but the tank is just that ... a simple 3l box with some fittings. I can run it down to like 1/2L of fuel before starvation ... basically, if I starve in a corner, I'm probably not going to make it back to the pits without a tow (yes, I've tested this ... I now measure fuel very carefully!)

    Btw, -6 AN lines are pretty cheap, and steel braided hoses are usually a requirement when running fuel and oil lines inside the car .... might want to upgrade at some point.
    Check out the 8legs Racing page: https://www.facebook.com/8legsRacing/


  16. #116
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    So haven't been with the track scene for about season and a half, finally was able to go out to NJMP Lightning yesterday with my cousin who now drives C5 Vette instead of Warsteiner Replica M3 - had so much fun! Few random laps are below.

    Just wanted to bring this thread up for anyone looking for an idea of how to fix the fuel starvation once and for all... Below is a quick video I shot in the pits during cool-down after coming out of track 1 lap before the checkered flag, because I thought I won't make another lap . The fuel needle is below the low fuel light and had zero starvation issues!




    Here are few random laps from yesterday's NJMP - Lightning. My personal best for the day was few laps with 1:15 time. It was raining for almost 2 days straight until the night before and couple of the places at the track had water sipping through the whole day, which made going all out in those corners impossible. But who cares, it was fun anyway.









    - 96 328is 6.0L. (LS1 to LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ad.php?2098938)
    - 96 328is 5.7L. (LS1 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1289987)
    - 95 ///M3 6.0L. (LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1619249)

    - 97 ///M3. (e46 Fender Flares/track car build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1727098)
    - 96 328is (Dual Fuel Pump to Surge Tank thread: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ad.php?1964025)

  17. #117
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    What's up my man? Hope all is well. Looks like it's fixed!! How's your car run vs your cousin's car?


    '97 M3/4

  18. #118
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    Hey Doug, all is good. This was the first time I went with my cousin since he got a Vette and me not being at the track for 1.5 years... SO this past weekend my fastest laps were about 1 second faster then his fastest laps. Keep in mind that he has highly modified suspension (coil overs instead of leaves, sway bars, 315 rear tires 285 or 295 fronts, etc...) So he is far from stock except for engine, which is untouched.

    I thought he would be quicker on the straights with his aerodynamic advantages, but I was surprised that I would start pulling on him hard in 5th gear with all my aero etc.

    I also need different wheels for my car as I'm "mashrooming" 255 on an 8" wide rim and loosing a lot of potential...
    - 96 328is 6.0L. (LS1 to LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ad.php?2098938)
    - 96 328is 5.7L. (LS1 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1289987)
    - 95 ///M3 6.0L. (LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1619249)

    - 97 ///M3. (e46 Fender Flares/track car build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1727098)
    - 96 328is (Dual Fuel Pump to Surge Tank thread: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ad.php?1964025)

  19. #119
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    I got you. Sounds like a blast man! Glad to hear from you.


    '97 M3/4

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