Spring rates for drifting

[bennyfizzle]

with these motors, bouncing the limiter is the name of the game.

if you don't want to ride the limiter, swap in a chevy v8.

[Rash]

Haha as long as you think it's safe. I rev limit bounce my Hondas daily, just figured the BMW was a gentler beast.

[bennyfizzle]

they have a pretty well designed/thought out limiter, obviously the faster and longer you spin...anything that spins, the faster it will wear, etc. but the limiters on these cars are pretty soft, and set low enough.

I ride mine a lot because I have a tough time spinning up third.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Pb8n2rChk[/ame]

[MikeE36]

Rev Limiter you say?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_MLkA8ufio[/ame]



Mike

[Rash]

[protomor]

I'd rather not rev limit bounce just to maintain a decent drift.

IMO there are A LOT of factors that play into that. In some cases, it's your driving, some suspension, some tires, etc.

Should I settle for a much higher rate in the rate in the rear? I'd like to less rear grip, eliminate understeer, and drift on the street with summer street tires. Car will hardly see track time.

Eh, When I got some info from an ASD Mob member, they told him to set the car up to slide easily at first, dial in grip when you get good. While raising the rear rate will make it easier to slide, I prefer a car close to neutral steer but error on slight oversteer. From what I've seen, pros go to slight understeer (essa correct me with your input plz).

Currently running Eibach sport springs (no idea on rate) all around, and Tokico Blue front, with rear oem shocks. My current setup is horrific. Bouncy front, and the rear is completely uncontrollable once it lets loose. Don't blame me, the previous owner set it up as a "pimp car". Cool guy, but didn't have performance in mind with this car, only straight line speed, hence the s/c kit.

IMO find what other cars run. Don't reinvent the wheel right? I swear we had a master sticky with what spring rates people ran somewhere. Maybe someone wants to compile it?

[bennyfizzle]

I think pro cars will just inherently understeer as a result of their seeking the most rear grip they can get on street tires.

It's not really that they're LOSING front grip as it is they're GAINING so much rear grip that the car becomes understeer biased.

[protomor]

yes. but ideally, only slightly understeer biased

[Piner]

Based on my previous E36 which had a similar setup to his with less power. The koni yellows can handle more rear spring rate than 650lb/in (Mine was 780 for example) I had less power so for a car making 350whp up top 650 rear sounds about right. Run the stock front bar and 500lb front springs, I had 550 fronts and an upgraded sway bar the the ride wasnt terrible. If you want to run a rear (stock) bar or no bar is a personal preference thing I ran with a rear bar for along time but I ditched it for one event to see what it felt like and I never put it back in. You lose a bit of that planted feeling going around higway offramps and such since the rear will roll more but in drift to me atleast it feels much more linear on break away and at full lock.

if you are going to do it and you want koni yellows (very good choice IMHO) just buy GC's whole coilover kit at once, no messing around with inserts and welding on sleeves. Buy and bolt the bastards in.

[1FRacing]

my front sway bar is uuc 27mm on full hard and rear sway bar is 23mm and on softest setting. Im running BC ER series setup 10k/14k.. my car is so unsmooth on transitions(very flicky) its forces me to fight the car every turn unless its a long sweeper etc... felt like ive been fighting the car for so long... glad to stumble upon this thred.

I now have the rear sway on softest setting but front is on full stiff but can be adjusted to med and soft. rear just has 2 settings.

Should I just remove the rear sway?

Im going to get my car corner balanced and aligned properly.. what is best set up for Front Chamber/Caster/toe e36 m3 fully stripped NA.

I've been trying to figure out what settings work best for what track I'm at but with so many options with compression and rebound its a mind maze on the BC ER series coil overs. Does anybody that runs them have advice for settings that work for certain car behavior and track layout etc.. thanks so much guys..

[Thekingb]

Hello Peeps!,

This is an old thread and might be inactive but I need some help finding out what coilovers to buy and in which springs rates.
Before anyone attacks me with "READ PREVIOUS POSTS", I did read all the thread and I see that all of you guys are running M50/M52 or S52 engines and no has a heavy V8 in the front.

My car is as follows:
chassis : BMW E36 320ia 1998
Mods:
- M60B40 V8 Engine + 6 speed manual gearbox Swap + custom made oil sump and modified oil pump, catback exhaust system (Mitsubishi EVO exhaust).
- E36 M3 LSD (3.15 ratio)
- Stripped interior, NO AC, Stripped trunk, BRIDE racing seats.
- Hydrolic handbrake with dual calibre setup.
- E46 arms, modified hubs (non-M) Koni front shocks, FK rear shocks + H&R blue springs allaround(no idea about rates).
- Z3 M Coupe rims 17" (17mm spacers on front and 10mm taken off the rear ones to reduce offset) running 205/40 on front and 215/40 on tires on the rear.

10269155_1412841922321721_7689615967506132569_o.jpg

Latest Drift Video :

I'm suffering from the need to stay on the throttle in order to transition. It is gripping alot althout it is a pretty stiff setup.
Also I would like to eliminate the movement of the suspension when going on/off throttle to be able to control the car more and have direct throttle response to the tires on the ground.

Any Help would be very usefull!

[Piner]

^ try running no rear bar and if you don't like it IE feels too lazy for your tastes then get a stock 325 bar and put that in the back and see if you like that better. I am a fan of no rear bar.

[ZimDoc]

^ try running no rear bar and if you don't like it IE feels too lazy for your tastes then get a stock 325 bar and put that in the back and see if you like that better. I am a fan of no rear bar.

On this same topic the road racers on the west coast mainly run without a rear bar and softer springs compared to the east coast were higher spring rates and large sway bars are the answer to be fast. Spring rates and sway bar choice comes down the track also. If the track is super smooth you can raise the spring rates until the shock can't keep up or the car becomes slower but if its a bumpy track allow the car to have some body roll instead of bashing you about over the bumps or cracks in the pavement.

[SLR]

Hello Peeps!,

This is an old thread and might be inactive but I need some help finding out what coilovers to buy and in which springs rates.
Before anyone attacks me with "READ PREVIOUS POSTS", I did read all the thread and I see that all of you guys are running M50/M52 or S52 engines and no has a heavy V8 in the front.

My car is as follows:
chassis : BMW E36 320ia 1998
Mods:
- M60B40 V8 Engine + 6 speed manual gearbox Swap + custom made oil sump and modified oil pump, catback exhaust system (Mitsubishi EVO exhaust).
- E36 M3 LSD (3.15 ratio)
- Stripped interior, NO AC, Stripped trunk, BRIDE racing seats.
- Hydrolic handbrake with dual calibre setup.
- E46 arms, modified hubs (non-M) Koni front shocks, FK rear shocks + H&R blue springs allaround(no idea about rates).
- Z3 M Coupe rims 17" (17mm spacers on front and 10mm taken off the rear ones to reduce offset) running 205/40 on front and 215/40 on tires on the rear.



I'm suffering from the need to stay on the throttle in order to transition. It is gripping alot althout it is a pretty stiff setup.
Also I would like to eliminate the movement of the suspension when going on/off throttle to be able to control the car more and have direct throttle response to the tires on the ground.

Any Help would be very usefull!

By all accounts' the V8 is lighter than the iron block six. It also sits further back in the engine bay, so you'd need to soften the front, or stiffen teh rear to get the balance back. Your description of the rear being too grippy now, coincides with that.

[Thekingb]

^ try running no rear bar and if you don't like it IE feels too lazy for your tastes then get a stock 325 bar and put that in the back and see if you like that better. I am a fan of no rear bar.

I dont that will be my taste. I'm looking for a stiffer rear !
Removing the bar will cause more roll thus more Grip and the need for more agressive weight shifting to stop the rolling from causing difference in load on the rear tires and causing the LSD to slip and staightens the car up more.
Is the 325 bar stiffer than the 320i? I searched all over the internet and I could only find info on the 328 and the 325 but non on the 320i , mine is a 320i (4doors) 1998 model.

On this same topic the road racers on the west coast mainly run without a rear bar and softer springs compared to the east coast were higher spring rates and large sway bars are the answer to be fast. Spring rates and sway bar choice comes down the track also. If the track is super smooth you can raise the spring rates until the shock can't keep up or the car becomes slower but if its a bumpy track allow the car to have some body roll instead of bashing you about over the bumps or cracks in the pavement.

I'm a Drifter bro I need Opinions for drifting not road racing

By all accounts' the V8 is lighter than the iron block six. It also sits further back in the engine bay, so you'd need to soften the front, or stiffen teh rear to get the balance back. Your description of the rear being too grippy now, coincides with that.

I had the aluminum block and the V8 is actually 15kg heavier than it. Also my V8 sites almost at the same spot as the 6cyl because i didnt want to do any mod ont he firewall and the 6speed gearbox has a big front end which is wider than the gap in the stock firewall.
See photo

You are right I do need to stiffen the rear but I want also to stiffen the front too because the car is still tilting (body roll) alot in both front and rear.


Thanks for your replys guys

[tairyhesticles]

Actually running no rear bar would yield more even distribution of load between tires, since the outside wheel won't be trying to lift when the inside is compressed. Up your spring rate, and you won't need to worry about the lack of a rear sway in terms of grip.

[SLR]

I'm a Drifter bro I need Opinions for drifting not road racing

Ultimately grip is grip though and balance is balance so his advice applies. Although not many drifters are travelling around with various spring setups to swap out; he's right about the smoother tracks.

If you want the car to carry the slide better on lift-off, then absolutely go stiffer in back. The inboard spring position on these cars requires a higher rear rate than front in order to be neutral. Do you know your current spring rates? You made no mention of current coilovers. If you have some random XYZ-brand, then there's a 100% chance you'd be lightyears better with a set of Bilstein sports and H&R springs.

[protomor]

Arguably, the only thing I can think of from road racing that DOESNT have a direct translation to drifting is ackerman. Though, I still like factory ackerman.

[Thekingb]

Ultimately grip is grip though and balance is balance so his advice applies. Although not many drifters are travelling around with various spring setups to swap out; he's right about the smoother tracks.

If you want the car to carry the slide better on lift-off, then absolutely go stiffer in back. The inboard spring position on these cars requires a higher rear rate than front in order to be neutral. Do you know your current spring rates? You made no mention of current coilovers. If you have some random XYZ-brand, then there's a 100% chance you'd be lightyears better with a set of Bilstein sports and H&R springs.

I have Yellow KONI Shocks with blue springs that came on them, bought them used with no idea about the spring rates
Tried to lookup the Kit and didnt find any usefull info.
I also have an M3 top strut mounts Like these > 7659346424_7bfb2a2a5c_z.jpg
Well you are right balance is balance and thats exactly why "no bar" is not right for drifting. A wheel lifting at the back is the reason for having more roll on the front than on the back and therefore one tire will have to lift on the back to match the rolling on the front. But if you have a well balanced setup for drifting (i.e body roll almost eliminated on both front and rear) then you wont worry about any tires lifting.
And thats what Im looking for, a stiff setup with almost no roll , stiff bars and stiff springs.
I want to stiffen the springs because they are too soft for track use although it feels very stiff on the streets but its just not enough for track drifting. The Grip level varies too much from one state to another and its hard to predict it without practicing the layout.
The Drifting events held in my region have no practice runs. They are gymkhana style events in parking lots (flat surface).
Thats why I need the car to be very Oversteer biased specially that I'm running 205 tires on the front vs 215 tires on the back.
Also I want to Lower the car for more agressive looks since they give points on car looks too and I dont want the tires to touch the fenders.

[Piner]

Also just to point out more body roll does not necessarily equal more grip. It can help reduce tire shock but it doesn't always mean more grip. 15kg is not enough of a difference to resort to stiffer springs in the front.

[zmpete]

Sean@ SLR, hoping to order ur front arms shortly for zmcoupe..
can u advise me re:spring rates for coilovers.. Was thinking 10/8 or 12/10 but don't really know,
as u know e30 rear on these so getting adjustable camber and toe plates..
cheers pete

[SLR]

Hi Pete,

Not much Z3 experience myself, but with the shorter wheelbase I would maybe go a kg stiffer in the rear to avoid the car being too snappy in transitions compared to E36/46.

[Rover 200vi]

I am glad I have found this topic again because I am suffering from wheel hop on my E36 325i and all my bushings and mounts are fine or replaced. However I have also purchased the Yellow Koni's with blue springs (used) which I do not know the spring rates off. Although the dampers seem fine whenever I slam it into second gear it still wheel hops with decent tires. Personally I think this is because the rear is 20mm higher then the front. Would it help if I went for a leveled setup like 40mm lower at the front and 40mm lower at the back so it is even? When I watch Formula Drift I see loads of guys running reverse rake, so maybe I should just run the back lower??? Maybe it is just driver preference tough or would it really hurt performance if I used reverse rake?

Currently the Koni STR.T makes my rear sit about 20-25mm higher then the front!

[Jrcanes55]

Been reading through this post for the last 20 minutes. I've been having trouble with rear end grip in the E28 I couldn't keep up with an e30 on track last time so I upped the rear tire size. I've got BC coils running 9k front/8k rear with the rear on full soft. The car is completely stripped down and I don't have the information to calculate everything for the car. This is all I could think of.

cf255.jpg

[tairyhesticles]

What about a wider or grippier rear tire?