FOUND..That Annoying Tapping/Rattling Noise

[M I C H A E L]

When I get around to changing the lifters I'll do a DIY tutorial. There is none in e38.org.

that would be awesome of you!!

Can you further describe the noise you're having? Sometimes I think my m62 doesn't run as dead quiet as it should. Except, I just realized your cars are pre-VANOS. Oops. I'm probably just heading the VANOS system... Sorry for the tread jack, I just had to ask

here' is the annoying Noise. I just dont know how many I need to replace until I open up. Maybe two? It only comes from the passenger side of the engine. ( NOT VANOS)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRfxRvygADQ[/ame]

[HDIDDY]

Huh kinda sounds like Christine. The part of the movie when she rolls into the shop after driving down the road on fire.

[maddoggyusa]

it looks promising... but until you do the repair and noise goes away, this is still not a confirmed fix. but kudos to you for getting into the engine and doing some real evaluating.

wouldn't it be smart to replace all the lifters at the same time?

[kouks]

wouldn't it be smart to replace all the lifters at the same time?

The correct answer is yes. The economically viable answer is, as many as you can afford. Each is $24, that's about $800 for all 32 lifters. You can buy another used engine for about $1,000. Each one of us has to evaluate how much longer they plan to keep their car and weather or not its worth spending another $800 on the lifters. I saw on the LA CL two entire heads, reportdedly "rebuilt" for $800 for both.

My plan is to open it up, remove the cams and test each lifter individually, replace only those that need it. I don't see how the new lifters would affect the old lifters since they are each isolated in their own holes.

It's all about money.

[M I C H A E L]

The correct answer is yes. The economically viable answer is, as many as you can afford. Each is $24, that's about $800 for all 32 lifters. You can buy another used engine for about $1,000. Each one of us has to evaluate how much longer they plan to keep their car and weather or not its worth spending another $800 on the lifters. I saw on the LA CL two entire heads, reportdedly "rebuilt" for $800 for both.

My plan is to open it up, remove the cams and test each lifter individually, replace only those that need it. I don't see how the new lifters would affect the old lifters since they are each isolated in their own holes.

It's all about money.

Yeah Im not going to replace 32 lifters, that's some serious work and money. Just going to replace what I need do.

[Hueristic]

Just found this. BTW can you use S62 Lifters? http://store.vacmotorsports.com/bmw-...ter-p2601.aspx

Symptoms

When I first bought the car there was no tappet noise at all, only a slight general top-end rustling which is a 'feature' of the Vanos system. After a few months there was a distinct tappet rattle from the left bank, quite noisy and could just be heard with the bonnet closed. This noise should not be confused with the charcoal-canister ventilation valve which sounds very similar to a noisy tappet.

The M62 has hydraulic valve lifters (as does the M60, M52 and M73) which automatically take up any slack between the cam and the valve stem. It is the engine oil below the cam-follower that creates the hydraulic link and provides the automatic take-up of any clearance. The problems occur when the oil within the cavity is contaminated with air. When this occurs the cam follower compresses the air within the oil first and then gives the valve stem a good clout which is where the noise comes from. The noise is very similar to when a conventional tappet is incorrectly adjusted.

Repairs made

There are no repairs required, the air contamination is caused by driving style, in particular short runs where the engine fails to reach temperature before it is stopped again. The air can be removed from the system quite easily and is a known problem within BMW.


There has been many comments about noisy tappets on the V8 engines, only recently have I come across the official reason for this problem and how to fix it where possible.

The M60, M62 and M52 engines use Hydraulic lifters which take up all the back-lash between the cam and the lifter. To do this the lifter cavities must be completely full of oil, if there is any gap then the cam clouts the lifter instead of smoothly following each other. There are a number of reasons that the Hydraulic Valve Actuator (HVA) gets air trapped:

The oil is too viscous (especially when cold)
Frequent short journeys
Sharp cornering with low oil level

Frequent short journeys where the engine oil does not reach temperature means that the oil can absorb air when it contracts in the supply gallery. The air is normally expelled when the oil reaches high temperatures but where the oil never reaches high temperatures the air can be a problem, especially where it has to replenish the oil in the HVA elements. Small amounts of air are not really noticeable but where it builds up over a few short journeys the HVA elements will begin to be noisy.

The sharp cornering problem when the oil level is low is more obvious, the oil-pickup slurps air instead of oil and this is passed to the HVA elements where it can be trapped.

Where the oil is too viscous it cannot replenish the HVA cavities especially when the engine is cold. The oil in the HVA cavity contracts as the engine cools after a journey and in this way air finds its way into the system, if the oil is too viscous it will not immediately replenish the cavity.

How to fix the problem

Firstly, get the correct viscosity oil, you will not cure the problem if the oil is too viscous.

The procedure is pretty simple and is designed to bleed the HVA elements:

Check the oil level, replenish if necessary. Run the engine at idle and listen for noisy tappets, if the tappets are noisy run the engine at 3000RPM (with the car stationary) for 3 minutes. Return the car to idle for 30 seconds (to achieve minimum oil pressure) and listen for noisy tappets. If a tappet is still noisy increase engine speed to 3000RPM again for 3 minutes.

It is possible that you may have to repeat this procedure 5 times to bleed the tappets correctly. If the problem persists there may be another problem but in most cases this will provide the cure.

[zaherr]

Yeah Im not going to replace 32 lifters, that's some serious work and money. Just going to replace what I need do.

If i am doing it i am doing all of them and i will even replace the upper tensioners and the guides
Because I'm doing the timing any way this way the car will be new again and i can enjoy it

Sent from my phone

[M I C H A E L]

If i am doing it i am doing all of them and i will even replace the upper tensioners and the guides
Because I'm doing the timing any way this way the car will be new again and i can enjoy it

Sent from my phone

Cool that's your choice i respect that. Im just not because I dont have that kind of cash flow atm.

[kouks]

Just found this. BTW can you use S62 Lifters? http://store.vacmotorsports.com/bmw-...ter-p2601.aspx

Excellent! That will save some dinero! I did not see where it said it was compatible with the M62 but the number is the engine, not the letter.

The quote you had is the first section of the other thread I mentioned in my original post. Since I drive 45 minutes on open highway to work each day this is not my issue. But it may affect others, especially those who do not drive their cars too often.

[M I C H A E L]

so we can use s62 lifters? interesting.

[maddoggyusa]

might want to check realoem to ensure they are the same P/N

[RRandy]

The correct answer is yes. The economically viable answer is, as many as you can afford. Each is $24, that's about $800 for all 32 lifters. You can buy another used engine for about $1,000. Each one of us has to evaluate how much longer they plan to keep their car and weather or not its worth spending another $800 on the lifters. I saw on the LA CL two entire heads, reportdedly "rebuilt" for $800 for both.

My plan is to open it up, remove the cams and test each lifter individually, replace only those that need it. I don't see how the new lifters would affect the old lifters since they are each isolated in their own holes.

It's all about money.

Holy thread resurrection batman !

I know this is a really old thread but fascinating and near to where I am at the moment and I can see you are still active so hopefully not a problem reviving an old thread. i think you have given me some advice before.

I was just wondering if you ever replaced your lifters and if it solved your problem?

I have the M62TUB44 in my 2004 Range Rover and previously i replaced the cam chains, timing chain and guides and replaced the vanos seals with Beisan but still getting some odd noises.
I have a pronounced rattle at cold start that lasts a minute and then rattles intermittently which sounds like cam chains on both banks and then stops and all is quiet until it reaches operating temperature and then it starts to tap again but a different noise.

I decided to strip it down again and didn't find any soft lifters but they were all rock solid so i stripped them down and cleaned them all as couldn't afford to buy new and have also purchased new oil distribution units, metal camshaft sealing rings, cam chain tensioners and have checked the camshaft clearance with plastigauge which checked out fine at around 0.06 mm.

i have a few days left to put it all back together again and hoping something i have done has at least cured one of my noises but just wondered if you sorted yours out in the end ?
Apologies if you have answered me before.
Cheers
Andy

[TxDarth]

Holy thread resurrection batman !

I know this is a really old thread but fascinating and near to where I am at the moment and I can see you are still active so hopefully not a problem revving an old thread. i think you have given me some advice before.

I was just wondering if you ever replaced your lifters and if it solved your problem?

I have the M62TUB44 in my 2004 Range Rover and previously i replaced the cam chains, timing chain and guides and replaced the vanos seals with Beisan but still getting some odd noises.
I have a pronounced rattle at cold start that lasts a minute and then rattles intermittently which sounds like cam chains on both banks and then stops and all is quiet until it reaches operating temperature and then it starts to tap again but a different noise.

I decided to strip it down again and didn't find any soft lifters but they were all rock solid so i stripped them down and cleaned them all as couldn't afford to buy new and have also purchased new oil distribution units, metal camshaft sealing rings, cam chain tensioners and have checked the camshaft clearance with plastigauge which checked out fine at around 0.06 mm.

i have a few days left to put it all back together again and hoping something i have done has at least cured one of my noises but just wondered if you sorted yours out in the end ?
Apologies if you have answered me before.
Cheers
Andy

I am not an expert on this but I remember someone talking about the green "O" ring behind the passenger side guide mount I believe. Then there are check valves behind the Vanos solenoids as I recall but check with some one else to be sure....The noise is because of the oil draining down after shutting the engine off. When it builds back the noise goes away....

[951Dreams]

I am not an expert on this but I remember someone talking about the green "O" ring behind the passenger side guide mount I believe. Then there are check valves behind the Vanos solenoids as I recall but check with some one else to be sure....The noise is because of the oil draining down after shutting the engine off. When it builds back the noise goes away....

What he said...

I have this I think. But only on cold starts after it's sat for awhile. I had feared it was the chains, but it only does it when it's sat for a long time. Like overnight. And goes away after about 4-5 seconds. I'm fairly sure it's the VANOS check valve. Pretty easy fix from what I've read, it's on the list.

But if yours is going on for a full minute, and comes back when hot.... Not sure then. Even lifters normally quiet down after 10-20 seconds in my experience.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[georgebest]

What he said...

I have this I think. But only on cold starts after it's sat for awhile. I had feared it was the chains, but it only does it when it's sat for a long time. Like overnight. And goes away after about 4-5 seconds. I'm fairly sure it's the VANOS check valve. Pretty easy fix from what I've read, it's on the list.

But if yours is going on for a full minute, and comes back when hot.... Not sure then. Even lifters normally quiet down after 10-20 seconds in my experience.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Agreed, likely the VANOS check valve. It's just not keeping the oil pressure on when you switch off the engine. They are approx $25 each and takes minutes to replace, make sure you got the o-ring as well.
On driver side you need to remove the coolant hose...taking it a bit longer. You also need a special tool for removing the VANOS solanoid though I could do it with a standard long 32 socket.

[kouks]

I don’t have VANOS on the engine I detailed on the old thread (M62 non TU) but I did rework an M50 inline 6 cyl on my e34 with VANOS and did what you did, took apart the lifters, rebuilt the VANOS, lapped valves, new seals, etc. that car had a slight tapping noise when cold, and when warm ran with a slight lope, but you could hear a slight tap. After the work it ran so smooth I took a photo of a wine glass sitting on top of the engine cover while running and not a single ripple in the wine.

What youve done will help the engine greatly, all seals in the head should be replaced if you’ve gone this far, and will help during high demand, high pressure driving.

[clarkitect]

I have a tap that is only evident when under load. Rev it in park and no tap. Put it in gear and rev it a bit (not too much to blow the tranny!) and it'll tap. Seems like lifters could be the issue?

[RRandy]

Hi Guys, firstly apologies, i don't seem to be getting notifications and many thanks for the replies.

Well it is all back together and no better, still an ongoing rattle at start up and then the knock is back once warm.
I'll make a recording and post it on you tube I think and see what you think if you get a chance to listen.
The green O ring that feeds the tensioner is the only thing i didn't change this time but did when i did the vanos rebuild and guides and the non return valves were replaced at the same time as the vanos as was the main chain tensioner.
i am running Mobil 1 0w-40 oil which is another topic on it's own and have run shell helix ultra 5w-40 before for a while and i have considered 10w-40.

i am also now thinking i may be going down the route of rod bearings or something else deeper in the engine but the cold rattle definitely sounds like it's coming from the front top end.
Thanks again.
Andy

[RRandy]

Hi all, I have uploaded a couple of videos, the startup knocking noise can be heard and then mostly stops suddenly and 1 m 27s and then leaves behind another quieter knock. I did take it out for a hard run last night to try and bleed the lifter air out and when I got back it was mostly quiet and i hadn't done this since stripping the lifters and rebuilding. i have done this before stripping them though and then when I start the next day it's back. Anyway. see what you think if you get chance to listen please. The second video is just following straight on from the first.
Apologies for the red powder coated cam covers !
Many thanks
Andy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jxm_m7bYh7s&t=22s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X36l41mk6k8