FOUND..That Annoying Tapping/Rattling Noise

[kouks]

Finally I got the time to open up the engine and check for that annoying tapping/dieseling sound that myself, Psjir, MICHAEL and Purplecty, as well as others, are experiencing. Hope this helps some of you with similar issues.
The process I followed was:
1. Use INPA’s ability to read real time engine data to try and detect any problems.
2. Do a compression check on each cylinder
3. Check engine timing mechanically
4. Do a leak down check on each cylinder to find valve issues
5. Use the procedure in this thread I posted a few weeks ago: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1917812
So to begin:
1. INPA showed that most of my cylinders were running at about 65-75 roughness units. I’ve been told this is about where they should be. However, #7 showed about 380 units, and occasionally #5 and #3 would be elevated, but only at about 150 units. So going in, I had a few suspects.
2. The compression check did not show much. All cylinders were between 145-155 psi, with the #3 a slight outlier at 160 psi. Still nothing significant.
3. I took the valve covers off, inserted the pin in the flywheel and the timing tools on the cams to check timing mechanically. It was dead on. One of my theories was that timing may have moved if one of the timing sprockets slipped, causing pre-ignition in the cylinders and a knocking noise. That theory was put to rest when timing was right on.
4. Performed a leak down check using a US General tool from Harbor Freight (around $35). All cylinders were 10-13%, with #3 as the outlier at 13%, and all the others mostly at 10-11%. Not bad for a 140,000 mile engine, but #3 was becoming more of a suspect. The write-up says that a leak down check greater than 15% would point to a binding lifter. No such indication, although close.
5. Finally performed the procedure in http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1917812 and I started to find stuff. First I used a feeler gauge tool to see if there was any space between the lifters and the cam lobes at the max closed position (lobe pointing up). I found the forward intake lifter on #8 and the aft intake lifter on #4 as “soft”. With very little thumb/finger pressure, I could move the lifter slightly up and down. The spring action on these lifters was worn out. I could also spin the lifters in the #1 and #2 cylinders, but could not get the feeler gauge in there. For the #8 lifter, the gap was .225 mm, and for the #4 lifter, the gap was .220 mm. All lobes looked normal, no unusual wear, no cracks. The offending lifters also looked normal with no unusual wear.
The next step was to remove the upper timing covers, remove the timing sprockets, remove the cams, replace the lifters, put it back together and re-time it again. That would be a 2 day job for me. After working all day long I ran out of motivation and put humpty-dumpty back together again. Maybe during the Christmas break I’ll have 2 days to do the job. But the good thing is I found the issue. The soft lifters that have a gap are being “slapped” by the lobes as they come around. Since there were no visible wear patterns, I am not concerned at this point, so a few more weeks of tapping should be fine.
Also to remember, all the oil additives we have discussed in other threads will help to free a sticky lifter, but they will not do any good against a lifter that is old and tired and has lost its spring action, only replacing those will fix the problem.
The unusual thing is that #7 and 3#, my main suspects, did not have any lifter problems, and the cylinders that I did identify with lifter issues read normal on INPA. I did not check fuel injectors so that may be an issue with those, onto more troubleshooting there.
Hope this helps anyone out there with similar tapping/rattling noise in the valve train. I would go with the first option of trying Marvel or Seafoam or other additives to try and help a sticky lifter. But after 2-3 applications if that does not work, you may have soft lifters and need to open things up.

[M I C H A E L]

Excellent. I had a feeling it was the lifters. So you replaced all of them or just two?.. Im gonna have to save this thread and build the courage to get in there and try to do it myself with some guidance. Also how much would it cost to replace the lifter(s)??

[psjr]

Really great info... that is a lot of tear-down to do and I don't have timing tools yet... I will be changing the intake gaskets and spark plugs soon and see if it helps any.

Thanks again for investigating.

[purplecty]

Very interesting!!!

[kouks]

Excellent. I had a feeling it was the lifters. So you replaced all of them or just two?.. Im gonna have to save this thread and build the courage to get in there and try to do it myself with some guidance. Also how much would it cost to replace the lifter(s)??

I did not replace any so far, just ran out of time in the shop. Maybe Christmas break I'll get to it. Each lifter is about $24 (pelicanparts.com) and you cannot use used lifters in the engine, only new (if you do every lifter that $800!). To do this yourself will require knowledge of timing the engine, it is a detailed procedure, but not too difficult. Read the TIS procedure on timing chain guides, and re-timing to get familiar with the task. You will also need a set of timing tools.

[M I C H A E L]

I did not replace any so far, just ran out of time in the shop. Maybe Christmas break I'll get to it. Each lifter is about $24 (pelicanparts.com) and you cannot use used lifters in the engine, only new (if you do every lifter that $800!). To do this yourself will require knowledge of timing the engine, it is a detailed procedure, but not too difficult. Read the TIS procedure on timing chain guides, and re-timing to get familiar with the task. You will also need a set of timing tools.

Im nowhere near mechanically inclined or comfortable with tools or know how to time an engine but I will definately get some help on this. Can't wait to have a quiet engine again. Thanks a lot for looking into this for us.

[zaherr]

yes it is a lifter i will get all of them replaced
My mechanic will do it for 7 hours


Fyi i had to check my the lifters with the engine warm to feel the bad lifter
Because when i checked it with cold engine i found nothing

I will try to flush the engine one more time then i am going to use 15w40 and i am going to add the liqui moly litter additive that i got long time a go if that did not fix it i may replace the my self or let the mechanic do it for me

Thank you for sharing all this with us

Sent from my phone

[M I C H A E L]

yes it is a lifter i will get all of them replaced
My mechanic will do it for 7 hours


Fyi i had to check my the lifters with the engine warm to feel the bad lifter
Because when i checked it with cold engine i found nothing

I will try to flush the engine one more time then i am going to use 15w40 and i am going to add the liqui moly litter additive that i got long time a go if that did not fix it i may replace the my self or let the mechanic do it for me

Thank you for sharing all this with us

Sent from my phone

You don't need to add an additive after you replace your lifters, the additive will only reduce the noise. I suggest you use 10w40 as 15w is going to be too thick for a cold start.

[GSXRliterbikz]

Good info. Isn't it satisfying when you finally find out that nagging issue. Nicely done.

[TAM 11M]

So would this be the cause of the noise that we all call the vanes rattle? Could you please state which engine you have, I would love to do this one day too! Saved for future! So thanks! !!

[GSXRliterbikz]

Vanos noise is different.

[TxDarth]

You don't need to add an additive after you replace your lifters, the additive will only reduce the noise. I suggest you use 10w40 as 15w is going to be too thick for a cold start.

Better yet use 0w40 year around.........

[WarMachine7]

Better yet use 0w40 year around.........

How bout 0w-40 with an additive?

[kouks]

So would this be the cause of the noise that we all call the vanes rattle? Could you please state which engine you have, I would love to do this one day too! Saved for future! So thanks! !!

No. This is for a non VANOS M62 engines.

[AquilaBMW]

Bravo Zulu Ace! Nicely Done!

[BobsBimmer]

Great information!

[kouks]

Bravo Zulu Ace! Nicely Done!

Thanks dude! Hope all is gong well.

I wish I had time to finish the job but if I kept tearing things up the wife would have not been happy. She wanted the car back in operation.

Great information!

Thank you sir! I enjoyed doing the "investigation". At least I know that the main engine is in good shape with good compression and relatively little leakage around the rings.

[TxDarth]

How bout 0w-40 with an additive?

Use Casterol Edge, M1 Extended Performance or Royal Purple - no additive needed. Even better find some Amsoil.........

[das borgen]

great diagnostic work, OP

bravo!

[Hueristic]

[kouks]

great diagnostic work, OP

bravo!

Thank you sir. I enjoyed doing it.

HA! Thanks for the credit but I just followed the TIS.

[M I C H A E L]

Better yet use 0w40 year around.........

Yeah Im thinking of use Amsoil's Europeon Formula 5W-40 BMW LL01 Approved and changing every 8500 miles.

It's Full SAPS:Full-SAPS Formulation for Maximum Engine Protection
AMSOIL European Car Formula contains high-quality anti-wear additives and surpasses the tough ACEA oil specifications for high-temperature/high-shear (HT/HS) viscosity. It provides outstanding protection in high-rpm, hot-running engines and delivers dependable long-term performance for the extended drain intervals recommended by European vehicle manufacturers.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...motor-oil-efm/

I don't think using 5W40 will be much different than 0W40. Feel free to chime in on this darth

[kouks]

When I get around to changing the lifters I'll do a DIY tutorial. There is none in e38.org.

[purplecty]

When I get around to changing the lifters I'll do a DIY tutorial. There is none in e38.org.

Ide love to see if this actually fixes all of our issue, if they are in fact all the same...

[machinemanjr]

Very interesting!!!

Can you further describe the noise you're having? Sometimes I think my m62 doesn't run as dead quiet as it should. Except, I just realized your cars are pre-VANOS. Oops. I'm probably just heading the VANOS system... Sorry for the tread jack, I just had to ask