M3 front strut mounts on non-m?

[Pik Masta]

Have a 95' 325I and I bought URO brand top mounts and one bolt sheared off during installation, thought maybe it was over torqued, then we backed up car 8ft then passenger side bolt sheared off as well. FML

Gonna send it back to Pelican for a credit towards a different brand of top mounts though all they have is BOGE, is this a better brand? Also I saw Lemforeder brand M3 top mounts for 96-99 M3, was wondering if this would be a direct fit upgrade? Or do I need the 95 M3 top mounts?

[blackongrey]

Anything but URO good christ. I reused my strut mounts and, just regreased the bearings.

[Moron95M3]

so, here's some info (on strut top mounts):

nonM is centered.
95M is centered, but tilted back
96+M is offset, and tilted back (came with offset outward from factory).


Here's things you can do:

Direct install 95M - no camber change, gain caster. Wheel will be slightly farther back in the wheel well
Direct install 96+M - removes camber (offset outward), gains caster. Again, wheel will be slightly farther back in the wheel well
Swap 96+M side to side - increased camber, gains caster. (common 'upgrade' for Ms)

Now another that I'm not sure you can do...I don't see you couldn't:
clock the 95M mount 60* (one bolt hole off). - Camber increase, not as much caster gain.


I find camber very desirable, but caster not as much (as it can effect wheel placement).

If you install any that are 'tilted back' (gain caster) I would suggest running 95M offset LCAB's, as that will center the wheel back in the wheel well (nonM LCAs = 95MLCA, so you'd be running a similar setup as a 95M).

some food for thought:
http://m3pink.blogspot.com/2011/11/e...part_8300.html

[Pik Masta]

Thanks moron! This Is good info

[DrVanos]

I just put some boge mounts on about 1k ago no problems yet

[jagerking]

so, here's some info:

nonM is centered.
95M is centered, but tilted back
96+M is offset, and tilted back (came with offset outward from factory).


Here's things you can do:

Direct install 95M - no camber change, gain caster. Wheel will be slightly farther back in the wheel well
Direct install 96+M - removes camber (offset outward), gains caster. Again, wheel will be slightly farther back in the wheel well
Swap 96+M side to side - increased camber, gains caster. (common 'upgrade' for Ms)

Now another that I'm not sure you can do...I don't see you couldn't:
clock the 95M mount 60* (one bolt hole off). - Camber increase, not as much caster gain.


I find camber very desirable, but caster not as much (as it can effect wheel placement).

If you install any that are 'tilted back' (gain caster) I would suggest running 95M offset LCAB's, as that will center the wheel back in the wheel well (nonM LCAs = 95MLCA, so you'd be running a similar setup as a 95M).

some food for thought:
http://m3pink.blogspot.com/2011/11/e...part_8300.html

You're on the right track here, but a little off as far as the information goes. I'll try and help set you straight.
95 M3 upper perches (tophats) are larger in diameter than 96-99 M3's. That's because the 96-99 M3's use smaller diameter springs. 95 M3's use the same diameter springs as a non-M, but as you mentioned, they're tilted backwards to add caster. Increasing caster actually moves your wheel further FORWARD in the wheel-well, increasing turn-in.
If you're running non-M control arms (which are the same geometry as 95 M3 control arms), you can use offset 95 M3 LCAB's to add more caster. If you're using 96-99 M3 control arms, you can't use the offset bushings, or you'll rub terribly.
To the OP: you need to order whichever tophats you have the springs for. If you have 95 M3 springs (which are the same diameter as non-m's), you need to order 95 M3 tophats. Same goes for 96-99 M3 springs. As far as increasing camber, you can use the tophats switched (or right on left and vise-versa) to gain about a degree of camber. Unless you know what you're doing, DON'T. You'll just burn up your tires and make it drive worse. Keep the questions coming if you have them!

[Pik Masta]

I just put some boge mounts on about 1k ago no problems yet

Thanks I may just buy boge brand non m top mounts and do the m3 mounts later

You're on the right track here, but a little off as far as the information goes. I'll try and help set you straight.
95 M3 upper perches (tophats) are larger in diameter than 96-99 M3's. That's because the 96-99 M3's use smaller diameter springs. 95 M3's use the same diameter springs as a non-M, but as you mentioned, they're tilted backwards to add caster. Increasing caster actually moves your wheel further FORWARD in the wheel-well, increasing turn-in.
If you're running non-M control arms (which are the same geometry as 95 M3 control arms), you can use offset 95 M3 LCAB's to add more caster. If you're using 96-99 M3 control arms, you can't use the offset bushings, or you'll rub terribly.
To the OP: you need to order whichever tophats you have the springs for. If you have 95 M3 springs (which are the same diameter as non-m's), you need to order 95 M3 tophats. Same goes for 96-99 M3 springs. As far as increasing camber, you can use the tophats switched (or right on left and vise-versa) to gain about a degree of camber. Unless you know what you're doing, DON'T. You'll just burn up your tires and make it drive worse. Keep the questions coming if you have them!

So running 95m top hats and fcabs offset will not center my wheel? Just add even more caster?

[Moron95M3]

You're on the right track here, but a little off as far as the information goes. I'll try and help set you straight.
95 M3 upper perches (tophats) are larger in diameter than 96-99 M3's. That's because the 96-99 M3's use smaller diameter springs. 95 M3's use the same diameter springs as a non-M, but as you mentioned, they're tilted backwards to add caster. Increasing caster actually moves your wheel further FORWARD in the wheel-well, increasing turn-in.
If you're running non-M control arms (which are the same geometry as 95 M3 control arms), you can use offset 95 M3 LCAB's to add more caster. If you're using 96-99 M3 control arms, you can't use the offset bushings, or you'll rub terribly.
To the OP: you need to order whichever tophats you have the springs for. If you have 95 M3 springs (which are the same diameter as non-m's), you need to order 95 M3 tophats. Same goes for 96-99 M3 springs. As far as increasing camber, you can use the tophats switched (or right on left and vise-versa) to gain about a degree of camber. Unless you know what you're doing, DON'T. You'll just burn up your tires and make it drive worse. Keep the questions coming if you have them!

Couple things.
Top hat is going to stay with whichever spring he has. That's why I ignored it. (#8 in pic)

As for tilting the strut back on 95s, that moves the wheel back in the well. (Think about the geometry.). Running the offset bushing is what pushes it back forward (to make it centered).


I see it as:

Get the mount (#1) you want to run the camber you want, then get the right bushing depending on the LCA and mount. The top hat (just the plate that holds the top of the spring) doesn't really care what mount it sees.

So running 95m top hats and fcabs offset will not center my wheel? Just add even more caster?

running 95M top mounts as they're supposed to be with 95M LCAB will be perfect. You will gain caster, no change though to camber.

If it were me, I'd run 96+M swapped (for more camber, and more caster), then put in a 95M LCAB. But I want more camber, and am not as worried about tire wear.

[jagerking]

Thanks I may just buy boge brand non m top mounts and do the m3 mounts later



So running 95m top hats and fcabs offset will not center my wheel? Just add even more caster?

If you want your wheel centered in the wheel well, use centered LCAB's (the ones from a 96-99 M3 are solid, stronger, better). ALL E36 M3's have high positive caster, so the front wheels are "forward" in the wheel well. If you want to look like an M3, then you'll want offset LCAB's. If you want your front wheels to be centered, then use centered LCAB's.

Couple things.

Top hat is going to stay with whichever spring he has. That's why I ignored it.

As for tilting the strut back on 95s, that moves the wheel back in the well. (Think about the geometry.). Running the offset bushing is what pushes it back forward.


I see it as:

Get the mount you want to run the camber you want, then get the right bushing depending on the LCA and mount. The top hat (just the plate that holds the top of the spring) doesn't really care what mount it sees.

I don't think we're seeing quite eye-to-eye here, and that's okay. We forgot to ask one important question:
OP: What is your suspension setup that you're trying to run here? M3 stuff? Non-M? Springs? Endlinks? Control arms? Tell us what we need to know so we can tell you what to order. Thanks!

[Pik Masta]

Ok I had my mechanic install Koni str.t oranges front and rear non m and progress tech lowering springs for non m and have JT design rsm and sport spec bump stops. And of course those broken URO top mounts brand new non m

Mechanic said my old top mounts are shot but he heard that you can run m3 spec mounts for an upgrade so that's why I'm asking on here if its possible and that's answered.

[jagerking]

Perfect. That works. What you should order is the most expensive top mounts you can afford (#1 pictured above, like the ones you broke) for a NON-M. You don't want M3 ones for this application. Keep your top mounts centered, and use regular non-M control arms. One upgrade you could do (I'd recommend it anyways) is to use 96-99 centered M3 LCAB's. They'll give you some stiffness and good road feel. I actually have a set for sale here on the forums (not that I'm saying you should use them because I'll sell you some), but they would be a good upgrade for you. This will keep your ride nice, and your wheel centered in the wheel well.

[joey79]

Sounds familiar.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1888800

[Pik Masta]

Thanks jäger king but after this project I'm going with power flex lcabs with meyle control arms
But pelican has only BOGE brand top mounts non m but only heard one review about it so far...

Sounds familiar.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1888800

Yes I didn't catch that, I would think that pelican would only sell trusted brands? Guess not

[Moron95M3]

haha, no problem. I'll try one more time to clarify what I'm trying to say.

If you want your wheel centered in the wheel well, use centered LCAB's (the ones from a 96-99 M3 are solid, stronger, better). ALL E36 M3's have high positive caster, so the front wheels are "forward" in the wheel well. If you want to look like an M3, then you'll want offset LCAB's. If you want your front wheels to be centered, then use centered LCAB's.

visually from the side of the car, M and nonM shouldn't look much different (wheel should be centered in the wheel well).


here are the couple things to note:

going from a nonM to any M mount will push the wheel back in the wheel well




And the 95M LCAB (compared to the 96+M or nonM LCAB) pushes the wheel forward in the wheel well.
Shown is a 95 (offset bushings) and then the 96+M/nonM drawn over it (going to 96+M/nonM moves the wheel backwards in the wheel well).



basically, if you have a 95M or a nonM LCA, then if you run any M strut mount, then you need the 95M offset LCAB.


Let me get one more pic here...



If you have nonM mounts, and go to 95M mounts, you gain some caster. (not a huge advantage to me anyway).

The 'upgrade' most people refer to going to 96+M mounts (swapped sides). This will gain you some camber:

here's a 95M with 95M mount.


and with the 96+M Mount swapped (notice the strut tips towards the engine, meaning you gained camber)





OP - if you want the 'upgrade' - get 96+M mounts, and swap them right->left. I would also run 95M LCABs then to make up for the wheel location. This is only if you want more camber than you already have. If you don't, just get nonM mounts again.

[Pik Masta]

Good info guys, this should be stickies lol

I don't want camber right now or at least not much cause I have continental dws which are rather pricey and want to keep them as long as i can so ill go with the BOGE brand top mounts since pelican lists then as oem supplier

Later in the future ill be buying coilovers with adj camber plates so no need for m3 top mounts lol

[Moron95M3]

there you go! sounds like a good plan

[goatherder]

So, can you resident experts answer me this: Can I install a set of H&R OE Sport springs, which H&R lists for 95 M3 only, on my '97 Vert? Do I need different spring hats?
Research on this forum leads me to believe that I can...but I need to get some verification before forking out the cash. Anybody know?

[Moron95M3]

So, can you resident experts answer me this: Can I install a set of H&R OE Sport springs, which H&R lists for 95 M3 only, on my '97 Vert? Do I need different spring hats?
Research on this forum leads me to believe that I can...but I need to get some verification before forking out the cash. Anybody know?

I think you'd need '95M Struts, but I'm saying that because I thought the spring diameter changed top and bottom vs. a 96+M.

Not sure if that's right though - if just the top diameter changes, then you're right, just need '95M hat's.

[goatherder]

This from the Suspension FAQ thread:

The OBD1 M3 and 3-Series have identically sized upper spring hats (different part numbers), the OBD2 M3 has a slightly smaller hat.

Leads me to believe that these springs go right in with the existing non-M hats. Now, the question is whether to buy '95 M3 struts or just '97 Sport struts. Or does it make any damn difference? Is the factory non-M Sport suspension and early ('95) M3 suspension basically the same as far as valving and spring rates?

Seems like I read that they are...

[Moron95M3]

hmm...I don't know why BMW would use different part numbers, but that could be the case.


Top hat:

nonM (95325)
31331135580

95M
31332227348

97M
31332227903


I am 99% sure the bottom of the spring is larger on NonM's (at least compared to 95M). I really don't know the rest...I should've checked this when I had a 95M and a 95nonM suspension out at the same time (dummy me!)

If you were to get M struts though, you could also get M swaybar endlinks, they'll mount to the strut insead of the LCA, and actually make the car feel like it has a bigger front sway bar.


btw, pic from the onlines.

97 328 vs. 97 M3

[goatherder]

The 3-Series has a larger lower spring perch as part of the strut than any M3.

Yup, this also from the FAQ. So I think you're right. So I need 95 M3 struts then. I think.

[bluptgm3]

Both E36M3s have the same wheel base, archived with slightly different means. The 325/328 strut is more upright than either M3, resulting in a slightly shorter wheel base.

Generally, any E36, proper upper spring perch and matching upper spring perch pad combination can easily purchased from BMW Dealer or many aftermarket suppliers - PelicanParts for one.
Early 91 ~ 92 E36s will require upper bearing supports, upper spring plates/pads and associated washers. Additionally, it would be best to upgrade to the more robust M3 Bearing supports - 95 or 96 running the relavant LCABushings.

The 95 M3, 325, and 328 ALL have the same diameter upper spring winding.
The 1996+ M3 have a smaller diameter upper spring winding, to stiffen the front end slightly.
Using the upper spring 'hat' from a 325/328 w/96+ M3 Bearing Supports/Guide Supports will potentially cause interferance with Strut Tower.
Use 95 M3 Springs, 'hats' and Guide Supports or 96+ M3 Springs, 'hats', and Guide Supports in these combinations only.
Are the lower spring winding of 95M3, 96+M3, 325/328 the same? No. And this can be confirmed by observing the lower Spring Pads. They carry different part numbers - 95M3/96+M3 and 325/323/328.

Struts are valved for 325/323/328 or M3 spring rates, and basically struts not interchangeable - springs/struts, but any Strut will fit with all of the proper parts and some mix-n-match.....i.e. 1995M3 H&R OE Sport Springs fit a 1996+M3 with 1995M3 spring 'hats'.

All p/n's pulled from realoem-dot-com

96+ m3 hat
UPPER SPRING PLATE 31 33 2 227 903
SPRING PAD UPPER 3MM 31 33 2 227 902
SPRING PAD UPPER 9MM 31 33 2 227 901 (Canadian cars)
SPRING PAD LOWER 3MM 31 33 1 124 322

95 m3 hat
UPPER SPRING PLATE 31332227348
SPRING PAD UPPER 3MM 31 33 1 128 523
SPRING PAD LOWER 3MM 31 33 1 124 322

95 325
UPPER SPRING PLATE 31 33 1 135 580
SPRING PAD UPPER 3MM 31 33 1 128 523
SPRING PAD LOWER 31 33 1 090 479

96+ 328
UPPER SPRING PLATE 31 33 1 135 580
SPRING PAD UPPER 3MM 31 33 1 128 523
SPRING PAD LOWER31 33 1 090 479

Washer and dust shield
95
DUST PROTECTION COLLAR 31 33 1 110 196
SUPPORT-washer conical 31 33 2 227 342
WASHER-GASKET 31 33 1 094 288

96+
DUST PROTECTION COLLAR 31 33 1 110 196
SUPPORT-washer conical 31 33 2 227 342
WASHER-GASKET 31 33 1 094 288

328
DUST PROTECTION COLLAR 31 33 1 110 196
Flat washer 37X2,5MM ZNS3 31 33 6 776 760
(I'd use the M3 washer - SUPPORT-washer conical 31 33 2 227 342)
WASHER-GASKET 31 33 1 094 288

Bearing Support/LCA/LollyPop/LCAB p/ns -
325/323/328
Wishbone, left 31 12 6 758 513
Right wishbone 31 12 6 758 514
Replacement outer BJ
WHEEL SUSPENSION JOINT 31 12 6 758 510

Bearing Support/LCA/LollyPop/LCAB p/ns -
95 M3
Front
GUIDE SUPPORT 31 33 2 228 345
(one required for left side, one required for right side)(centered guide support bearing, use with offset LCAB)
WASHER-GASKET 31 33 1 094 288
FRONT SPRING STRUT TOWER REINFORCEMENT (2) 31 31 2 489 795
WISHBONE, LEFT 31 12 2 227 249 LCA
RIGHT WISHBONE 31 12 2 227 250 LCA
LEFT WISHBONE BRACKET 31 12 1 139 789 lollypop
RIGHT WISHBONE BRACKET 31 12 1 139 790 lollypop
SET RUBBER MOUNTING F WISHBONE 31 12 9 064 875 < edit - LCAB offset bushings >

Rear
Guide support(RSM) 33 52 1 137 972
Protection tube 33 52 1 136 283
Additional shock absorber, (bumper) 33 53 1 138 109
Plate-washer, LWR 33 52 6 762 325
Shim-washer, small 10X16 ZNS3 33 52 6 779 398
Plate-washer,UPR 33 52 1 117 677
PROTECTION CAP 33 52 1 119 067
WASHER-GASKET, paper 33 52 6 772 864
SPRING PAD LOWER 33 53 1 135 420
SPRING PAD 7,5MM 33 53 1 136 386
ONLY APPLIES TO COIL SPRING RED
SPRING PAD 10MM 33 53 1 136 387
ONLY APPLIES TO COIL SPRING WHITE
SPRING PAD 5MM 33 53 1 136 385
SPRING PAD 15MM 33 53 1 094 754

96+ M3
Front
LEFT GUIDE SUPPORT 31 33 2 227 897 (offset aft/outbd for more caster(camber), use with centered LCAB)
RIGHT GUIDE SUPPORT 31 33 2 227 898 (offset aft for more caster/camber, use with centered LCAB)
WASHER-GASKET 31 33 1 094 288
FRONT SPRING STRUT TOWER REINFORCEMENT 31 31 2 489 795
WISHBONE, LEFT 31 12 2 228 461 LCA
RIGHT WISHBONE 31 12 2 228 462 LCA
LEFT WISHBONE BRACKET 31 12 1 139 789 lollypop
RIGHT WISHBONE BRACKET 31 12 1 139 790 lollypop
SET RUBBER MOUNTING F WISHBONE 31 12 9 069 035 < LCAB centered bushings >

rear
Guide support(RMS) 33 52 1 137 972
Protection tube 33 52 1 136 283
Additional shock absorber, (bumper) 33 53 1 138 109
Plate-washer, LWR 33 52 6 762 325
Shim-washer, small 10X16 ZNS3 33 52 6 779 398
Plate-washer,UPR 33 52 1 117 677
PROTECTION CAP 33 52 1 119 067
WASHER-GASKET, paper 33 52 6 772 864
SPRING PAD LOWER 33 53 1 135 420
SPRING PAD 7,5MM 33 53 1 136 386
ONLY APPLIES TO COIL SPRING RED
SPRING PAD 10MM 33 53 1 136 387
ONLY APPLIES TO COIL SPRING WHITE
SPRING PAD 5MM 33 53 1 136 385
SPRING PAD 15MM 33 53 1 094 754
SPRING PAD 21,5MM 33 53 1 091 599

325
Guide support 31 33 6 779 613
LCAB 31 12 9 059 288
UPPER SPRING PLATE 31 33 1 135 580
SPRING PAD UPPER 3MM 31 33 1 128 523

328
Guide support 31 33 6 779 613
LCAB 31 12 9 059 288
UPPER SPRING PLATE 31 33 1 135 580
SPRING PAD UPPER 3MM 31 33 1 128 523

E46 M3 Rear Shock Mount
Guide support 33 52 6 779 670

Splindles
95M3
KING PIN RIGHT 31 21 2 227 358
KING PIN LEFT 31 21 2 227 357

96+M3
KING PIN LEFT 31 21 2 227 907
KING PIN RIGHT 31 21 2 227 908


Strut
95M3
LEFT FRONT SPRING STRUT 31 31 2 226 987
FRONT RIGHT SPRING STRUT 31 31 2 226 988

96+M3
LEFT FRONT SPRING STRUT 31 31 2 228 007
FRONT RIGHT SPRING STRUT 31 31 2 228 008

ALL
LEFT TIE ROD 32 11 1 139 315
RIGHT TIE ROD 32 11 1 139 316
Securing plate(2) 32 11 1 140 464


********************************
H&R p/n 50410-88 would require mating parts for the 3.0L 95 M3
H&R p/n 50412-88 would require mating parts for the 3.2L 96+ M3

************************************************** ***
Here is another comparo - E30 parts
88 325
LEFT STEEL WISHBONE 31 12 1 127 725
RIGHT STEEL WISHBONE 31 12 1 127 726

88M3
LEFT STEEL WISHBONE 31 12 1 127 725
RIGHT STEEL WISHBONE 31 12 1 127 726

89M3
LEFT ALUMINIUM WISHBONE 31 12 1 130 823
RIGHT ALUMINIUM WISHBONE 31 12 1 130 824
88M3
LEFT STEEL WISHBONE 31 12 1 127 725
RIGHT STEEL WISHBONE 31 12 1 127 726

89M3
LEFT ALUMINIUM WISHBONE 31 12 1 130 823
RIGHT ALUMINIUM WISHBONE 31 12 1 130 824

95 318
WISHBONE, LEFT 31 12 6 758 513
RIGHT WISHBONE 31 12 6 758 514

95 325
WISHBONE, LEFT 31 12 6 758 513
RIGHT WISHBONE 31 12 6 758 514
LCAB 31 12 9 059 288

96+ 328
Wishbone, left 31 12 6 758513
Right wishbone 31 12 6 758514
LCAB 31 12 9 059 288

95M3
WISHBONE, LEFT 31 12 2 227 249
RIGHT WISHBONE 31 12 2 227 250
RUBBER MOUNTING F WISHBONE 31 12 9 064 875 < LCAB offset bushings >
KING PIN RIGHT 31 21 2 227 358
KING PIN LEFT 31 21 2 227 357


96+M3
WISHBONE, LEFT 31 12 2 228 461
RIGHT WISHBONE 31 12 2 228 462
RUBBER MOUNTING F WISHBONE 31 12 9 069 035
KING PIN LEFT 31 21 2 227 907
KING PIN RIGHT 31 21 2 227 908
SELF-LOCKING HEX NUT M14X1,5-05 31 10 6 774 714
SELF-LOCKING HEX NUT M12X1.5-05 32 21 6 769 539
Front Stabilizer link rear 33 55 1 126 932

[Pik Masta]

So I ended up using the 95m top mounts on my lowering springs and Koni oranges. The caster isn't noticeable and I get slight rubbing when I do a full turn. Think the tire hits the loose fender lining. But anyway I'm happy

[goatherder]

Dragging up this thread again - might make me a troll but whatever.

So I bought 95 M3 H&R springs, and struts for a 95 M3 as well. I reused my old spring hats, and regreased my strut mounts and reused them as well. These springs were to drop the M3 about 3/4" in the front. Not much. On my 97 328 Vert they dropped about 1.5" or so, but now I've got LOTS of neg camber. -2.9 deg on the right and -2.1 on the left. Wheels are noticeably canted inward and I feel like a dipshit teenager driving around like this.

Any suggestions besides the $400 adjustable camber plates?

I was thinking maybe 96+ upper strut mounts? Or maybe 95 mounts clocked 120 deg off to tip the wheels outward? I dunno, but I can't drive the stupid thing like this for too long or I'll fuckup my new tires.

[CMG]

95 mounts can't be switched 96 can. If u have way neg camber maybe 96 might sort it