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Thread: Live mapping 850CSi

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by revtor View Post
    Omega man 1969: The EWS documentation is quite clear on this: EWS (I) starting from 01/1994 and EWS II starting from 01/1995. I would not have reason to doubt this information if it wasn't for this forum member with an October 1994 850Ci who claims his car has EWS II. Maybe he is wrong and means EWS I but then I can't explain why DIS says your DME modules have EWS II. What BMW part number do your DME modules have? 1 404 270 or 1 404 739?

  2. #202
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    Omega man 1969: That's definitely from the pre-EWS II period. Maybe DIS reports EWS I incorrectly as EWS II?

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by revtor View Post
    Omega man 1969: That's definitely from the pre-EWS II period. Maybe DIS reports EWS I incorrectly as EWS II?
    Yes I guess it must be incorrect, thanks for your help.

    Once I've finished with the EML I will fit the Emulator back in the DME and switch each one of the Variant coding bits off and see how DIS recognises the unit, I've made a section in Tunerpro to allow me to do it very easily. It will be interesting to see if it responds as expected.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I took the car for a spin today to see what the modified pedal felt like.......it was way too sensitive low down but it really felt good elsewhere.....the car feels so much more aggressive. I was going to trace the 11 x11 map ..... I left my laptop on top of the dash while I jumped out to move something out of the way....my laptop fell out and smashed on the floor killing the hard drive with it. It's such a pain as all my files including Tunerpro definition files I created are on that drive. I'm trying to read the drive now using my PC but it's making some horrible noises :-(

    That will teach me to make a back up!
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 10-23-2013 at 11:58 AM.

  4. #204
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    Hello Omega man 1969,

    I’m so sorry to hear that! What a bad luck! And you have really no backup? Not even an older version? This were absolute horrible.

    There is a famous data recovery company in Germany – Kroll Ontrack. May be they can rescue something from your hard disk. They have also support contact in England. But rescuing data from damaged hard disks is unbelievable expansive.

    Sad regards

    Joachim

    http://www.krollontrack.co.uk/

    - - - Updated - - -

    As promised, I finished the PWG documentation today.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #205
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    Stat check the EWS module for info in DIS...
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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArnoNym View Post
    Hello Omega man 1969,

    I’m so sorry to hear that! What a bad luck! And you have really no backup? Not even an older version? This were absolute horrible.

    There is a famous data recovery company in Germany – Kroll Ontrack. May be they can rescue something from your hard disk. They have also support contact in England. But rescuing data from damaged hard disks is unbelievable expansive.

    Sad regards

    Joachim

    http://www.krollontrack.co.uk/

    - - - Updated - - -

    As promised, I finished the PWG documentation today.
    Wow! Thank you for the detailed documentation.......that is very helpful. I kept applying power then restarting my old hard drive until finally I could access my desktop folders......data saved !!!

  7. #207
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    Hey, this is good news! I don’t want think off losing the work of month and years by an accident like this. Luck in the bad luck. Congrats!!!

    Did you seen the overall angle of the PWG? The original BMW documentation is wrong.
    Also the measured start angle of the pseudo kickdown proofs our DIS readings.
    Last edited by ArnoNym; 10-25-2013 at 02:20 AM.

  8. #208
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    Yes I did see that, so at what angle does the EML signal the DME to use WOT (VL)

    The DME has 5 different fuel maps, idle, part throttle 1 part throttle 2 part throttle high load and then Wide open throttle which is not affected by lambda control.
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 10-24-2013 at 05:46 AM.

  9. #209
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    Great news you managed to save the data.
    When I read that you lost it I was like NOOOOO!!

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatandre View Post
    Great news you managed to save the data.
    When I read that you lost it I was like NOOOOO!!
    I was like noooooo when I heard the drive clunking ! I have a solid state drive I will fit to my next notebook.

  11. #211
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    Good that it was not a SSD that crashed. I have had 2 that crashed on me and there is no chance of recovering data.
    The model was faulty and got an upgrade though after reporting it

  12. #212
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    Yep ive heard a few SSD horror stories , I will make sure I back up files this time :-)

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    Yes I did see that, so at what angle does the EML signal the DME to use WOT (VL)
    I guess the EML is learning the maximum PWG angle of the respective car and gives VL to the DMEs if this angle is reached. Yours at 64,72°, mine at 63,87° and revtors at 67,53°.

    Very simple to do on manual cars, as higher values never occur when the pedal is on the metal. Not as easy as with the manual gearbox, but also not so difficult with the auto gearbox. The EML learns the 70° position while normal driving. For the kickdown angle of the PWG, the EML has to learn only one angle, as the driver suddenly presses the pedal down to the metal. Nobody will meet an angle between the 70° and the adjusted maximum angle of the pseudo kickdown of the PWG, as it needs a certain force to press the pedal in the kickdown possition.

    But all this is just my guess and not proven facts.
    Last edited by ArnoNym; 10-25-2013 at 02:19 AM. Reason: spelling

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArnoNym View Post
    I guess the EML is learning the maximum PWG angel of the respective car and gives VL to the DMEs if this angel is reached. Yours at 64,72°, mine at 63,87° and revtors at 67,53°.
    That seems unreasonably complex for something that can achieved by a few hardcoded angles. I have no proof to back this, but it's far more likely the VL is set at a fixed angle of, say, 60° in the EPROM for a manual E31. After all, there is a different EML for automatic and manual transmissions so there's really no need for the EML to learn the transmission type and pedal range.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by revtor View Post
    That seems unreasonably complex for something that can achieved by a few hardcoded angles. I have no proof to back this, but it's far more likely the VL is set at a fixed angle of, say, 60° in the EPROM for a manual E31. After all, there is a different EML for automatic and manual transmissions so there's really no need for the EML to learn the transmission type and pedal range.
    That does sound likely...probably around 3 volts. Does DIS screen show when VL is active during the EML test? A slow pedal press while viewing the VL status should show which angle is used.


    Earlier I mentioned there were 5 fuel maps....I wasn't thinking straight.....There are in fact only 4.... Idle, Part throttle, Part throttle high load and Wide open throttle. But there are 2 versions of each, I would imagine the other set of maps are used if the Variant switch for another country is selected or regular is selected instead of super unleaded as a fuel option. So maybe the 3 deg and 9 degree switch signal the EML to change between part throttle maps........once I get the emulator back in the DME I can check.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by IcemanBHE View Post
    Stat check the EWS module for info in DIS...
    I'll check that next time, thanks.
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 10-25-2013 at 02:58 AM.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    Does DIS screen show when VL is active during the EML test?
    Yes! See the attachments at post #183 and post #184.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    A slow pedal press while viewing the VL status should show which angle is used.
    This is not possible with DIS. PWG Angle and LL/VL signals are on different screens.
    Last edited by ArnoNym; 10-25-2013 at 02:56 PM.

  17. #217
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    OmegaMan: Try putting the drive in the freezer. Should give you a couple of minutes of usage until it heats up.
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  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4drian View Post
    OmegaMan: Try putting the drive in the freezer. Should give you a couple of minutes of usage until it heats up.
    Thanks ......Where did this putting it in the freezer idea come from.......It seems like if something goes wrong the internet quick fix is putting it in the freezer :-) I don't think that would do a HD much good...condensation and electronics don't go well together. I saved all the files in the end.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArnoNym View Post
    This is not possible with DIS. PWG Angle and LL/VL signals are on different screens.
    Actually it is possible. On several screens in DIS you can configure your own set of data to display (select reading and click right arrow, repeat for other readings and finally confirm with another right arrow click). Here's the PWG potentiometer angle and voltage and the VL signal in one screen:



    ... and just a fraction further:



    The voltage jumps from 2.90 to 2.92 - there's no value in between (I used a screw mechanism to adjust the pedal in a controlled an accurate way). To conclude; I guess it's safe to assume the VL pedal angle is hardcoded to approximately 60° for a manual S70 (and probably M70 as well).
    Last edited by revtor; 10-26-2013 at 04:59 AM.

  20. #220
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    Thank you so much revtor! This is new to me. Did not know DIS is configurable like this. I will try it out soon.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    Thanks ......Where did this putting it in the freezer idea come from.......It seems like if something goes wrong the internet quick fix is putting it in the freezer :-) I don't think that would do a HD much good...condensation and electronics don't go well together. I saved all the files in the end.
    It's an old trick, and believe me it works. The internals are enclosed so there's no worry about condensation. But good that you got your stuff
    Current Cars:
    1994 BMW 850 CiA (2017 km). My black on black Wokke'd 5.4l V12 autobahnmuncher
    1992 Donkervoort S8AT (105k km). The mad dutch "Super 7." 300hp/ton of turbo power!
    2013 VW Caravelle 4Motion (57k km). A dark wine red 180PS/400Nm 2.0 BiTDI rocketvan
    2007 SMC F-Kart 50. 88cc of street legal go-kart hilarity, and a 1968 Cadillac Coupé DeVille Convertible 472.

    "The best way to go broke-by-german-car is to buy an 8 series bmw with a v12" - Perc
    "Torque is like pron. You can't really define it, but you will recognize it." - ElToro

  22. #222
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    Excellent work Revtor, Thank you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by 4drian View Post
    It's an old trick, and believe me it works. The internals are enclosed so there's no worry about condensation. But good that you got your stuff
    Had a few ex Girlfriends that might have worked on.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    Looking at your dyno sheet there is a funny thing going oin around 4kRPM....I remember seeing some odd numbers for timing and fueling in the WOT maps around there.....you can see mine has no issues at that point with the modified map......
    The 4k RPM "bug" as I call it is due to the EML not passing WOT ground latch to the DME's. If you connect a datalogger to the WOT signal wires from EML to the DME's, you'll see that the EML doesn't latch to ground until 4200-ish RPMs.

    This means that your DME's are never using the WOT tables until the latch occurs - - which means you're actually running on the high part throttle fuel and timing maps from idle to 4200.

    I call it a "bug" because I have nearly 50+ datalogs from my twin turbo car and the phenomenon doesn't always appear. Some days it was there. Some days it wasn't. I vowed to disassemble the EML binary someday in order to figure out what the root cause was but never got around to it.

    Hope this helps...
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  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    I've decided to dig into the CSi DME's and have a play with the settings.

    My plan eventually is to squeeze a little more power out of it, at the same time investigate certain things like the EML and Injector duty cycle.

    I checked the injector part numbers when I was rebuilding my engine and they seem to be too small to give the kind of power stated for the CSi......Well if not too small they are very very close to cycle saturation for the flow rate specified.

    I have removed the DME's and EML, removed the Eproms, read the original files and replaced them with Ostrich 2 emulators. I put the units back in the car yesterday and spent a day driving around, just to make sure it's happy and running as it was without the emulators in place. It took a few minutes to settle down as expected, but after that it drove perfectly.

    My next step is to install my 2 MTX innovate wideband sensors in place of the standard O2 sensors, hooking up the simulated narrow band output of the MTX's to the DME's. Once that's done I can log Air/fuel and monitor the fuel/timing maps using Tuner Pro (once I figure out how to run 2 emulators at once)
    I had a basic XDF file drawn up by a Guy from the Tunerpro forum, It was a great help and gave me the initial step I needed to understand the way XDF files are setup, with a lot of reading I managed to add the full map address list, further maps and constants.
    For now I am just emulating the 2 DME's but then I will monitor 1 DME and the EML...that way I can figure out a little more about the relationship between road speed/injector duty cycle and its relationship to throttle movement/respsonse.
    I will probably hook up a scope directly to 1 injector bank from each side of the engine, just to confirm actual duty cycle to expected duration. I may also hook up a pot to the throttle plate in order to log 0 to 5v (closed to WOT) movement along with dual fuel pressure sensors.
    I would really like to install the AEM Propshaft dyno but unfortunately they don't make one for the Getrag ouput shaft setup.....maybe I can adapt it somehow.....that would be so useful for live road tuning.
    I will post some pictures as the project progresses.
    Please feel free to chime with suggestions/advice....I have a good knowledge of engine tuning and microprocessor design.....it's the Bosch software that is new to me. I'm sure with a little time and lots of testing I can figure all I need to know.

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/76310913/csiostrich2a.JPG

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/76310913/DM...0850%20CSi.jpg
    Would you be able to partition the drive and work one side for each partition? I'm not sure you can see both sets on the screen but you should be able to bounce back and forth without too much trouble.

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by John in DC View Post
    The 4k RPM "bug" as I call it is due to the EML not passing WOT ground latch to the DME's. If you connect a datalogger to the WOT signal wires from EML to the DME's, you'll see that the EML doesn't latch to ground until 4200-ish RPMs.

    This means that your DME's are never using the WOT tables until the latch occurs - - which means you're actually running on the high part throttle fuel and timing maps from idle to 4200.

    I call it a "bug" because I have nearly 50+ datalogs from my twin turbo car and the phenomenon doesn't always appear. Some days it was there. Some days it wasn't. I vowed to disassemble the EML binary someday in order to figure out what the root cause was but never got around to it.

    Hope this helps...
    Thanks for the info John, very interesting. Was your car an Auto or manual ?.

    I've got a new laptop now and some free time this weekend to do some more testing. I have a suspicion the 11x 11 map is road speed related .....I will set all the values to zero and see what happens.

    Another interesting thing I found was that power to the O2 sensors is switched off as the low fuel map switches to high. I only found out by accident as I had my wide band sensors powered from the 12v feed at the O2 connector, every time I pressed the pedal more than a few degrees the sensors switched off.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tvjake2 View Post
    Would you be able to partition the drive and work one side for each partition? I'm not sure you can see both sets on the screen but you should be able to bounce back and forth without too much trouble.

    Good idea, it might work...that would allow me to have data hit tracing on the EML and DME at the same time. Thanks !

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