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Thread: Live mapping 850CSi

  1. #76
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    I got the prop off in the end. I had to remove the other heat shield which I did without removing the rest of the exhaust. I slid it out over the top. Then pulling downwards on the centre section of the prop and at the same time pushing the prop over to one side, then it popped out.
    The input flange took 190Lb/ft to undo, it was already marked with white paint.
    While I'm waiting for the hoses to arrive I plan on getting the AHK covers power coated, they looked pretty rough from years of water/salt abuse.





    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 09-26-2012 at 06:08 PM.

  2. #77
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    Right, the car is ready to go. Replacing the hydraulic lines was a right PIA, the T union fittings were seized. I had to cut the pipes, remove the T and use heat and oil, working the fitting back and forth for half an hour.

    I test drove the car yesterday and it all good now .

    A little more tuning then off to the dyno on Wednesday at 12:00.





    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 09-21-2012 at 01:26 PM.

  3. #78
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    2 x 850csi , E93 320ia
    Looks good with new hoses at least they will be troublefree in the future.

    Regards
    Terje

  4. #79
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    Right guys, a bit of an update.

    I managed to get the car on the rollers today. It was a bit of a rush as I found one of the rear tyres was damaged and had to get 2 new ones fitted.

    I'll post the scan of the Dyno run first then explain the results.



    As you can see, the Max timing advance set for each run is shown on the sheet. The standard tune made just under 350BHP @ 5,568rpm...... around 30BHP down on what it should be. The Fuel mixture correct at around 12.8 to 13:1 so it wasn't running short on fuel.

    The first run was done with the timing set at a max of 34 degrees....this was obviously too much as the chart shows a drop in power from the standard tune.

    Run #3 I adjusted the WOT timing map with a peak of 28degrees and gained a fair amount...now at 362 bhp@5,482 rpm 366 lb ft@4558 rpm. Still lower than standard though.

    So.....where does the problem lie?

    After market exhaust system? I guess it could be, but the manifolds are standard and the Cats removed....I would have though that would help but you never know.

    Lazy MAF? gving the DME's low readings and therefore running at a lower max output? I will have to try and trace the MAF chart using Tunerpro at WOT.

    At 55,000 miles the eninge is barely run in, it has new air filters, new fuel filters, new MSD high power igniton coils. Maybe that's all the CSi will make in Standard trim.

    Has anyone else put their CSi on a Dyno?

    The part throttle response/power has increased dramatically, none of that is shown here as the runs were with the pedal to the floor (WOT map only)

    Here are a few shots:

    Also a big thank you to my friend the Earl of Wanstrow and his awesome Camera.













    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 09-26-2012 at 06:18 PM.

  5. #80
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    Impressive. Regardless if it only has 55,000 on it, the loss of power might be due to age of components rather than wear.
    Broke but feeling great!

  6. #81
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    I find this impressive, but dont understand the low numbers.
    Pictures also look good!!

  7. #82
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    bmw 850 i 1990
    beautiful 8 and beautiful color ( this green is awesome )
    great pictures

  8. #83
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    I might be able to get a Dyno run on my CSI if the local guy here has got his Dyno fixed .
    Let me see if I can get in contact with him , mine CSI is completely original.

    But what about the air innlets? and positive pressure when going at 250km
    Guess there is a high air pressure going in at the front , would that be of any effect?

    Possibly mont a pressure gauge at the front of the filterbox and drive fast to see if there is a pressure building up , compared to standstill.

    Regards
    Terje

  9. #84
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    Are those gauge needles custom?

    /edit, I know the CSI has red ones, but these look a different shape... maybe just the angle though.
    Last edited by Tonn; 09-27-2012 at 07:21 AM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonn View Post
    Are those gauge needles custom?

    /edit, I know the CSI has red ones, but these look a different shape... maybe just the angle though.
    They do indeed look awesome!
    Current Cars:
    1994 BMW 850 CiA (2017 km). My black on black Wokke'd 5.4l V12 autobahnmuncher
    1992 Donkervoort S8AT (105k km). The mad dutch "Super 7." 300hp/ton of turbo power!
    2013 VW Caravelle 4Motion (57k km). A dark wine red 180PS/400Nm 2.0 BiTDI rocketvan
    2007 SMC F-Kart 50. 88cc of street legal go-kart hilarity, and a 1968 Cadillac Coupé DeVille Convertible 472.

    "The best way to go broke-by-german-car is to buy an 8 series bmw with a v12" - Perc
    "Torque is like pron. You can't really define it, but you will recognize it." - ElToro

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by huldra66 View Post
    I might be able to get a Dyno run on my CSI if the local guy here has got his Dyno fixed .
    Let me see if I can get in contact with him , mine CSI is completely original.

    But what about the air innlets? and positive pressure when going at 250km
    Guess there is a high air pressure going in at the front , would that be of any effect?

    Possibly mont a pressure gauge at the front of the filterbox and drive fast to see if there is a pressure building up , compared to standstill.

    Regards
    Terje
    That would be great to compare, thanks. Do you know if it's an inertia or steady state dyno ?

    I doubt the air pressure would make that much difference ..... A few horse power but not 30. I think you get around .1 psi at 80 mph.

    The Op did the test in 4th gear rather than 5thnwhich is 1:1....maybe gear friction was a little higher in 4th. Still doesn't explain the total amount.
    I'm going to pull the plugs, make sure they are the right spec tomorrow and get some new distributor caps

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonn View Post
    Are those gauge needles custom?

    /edit, I know the CSI has red ones, but these look a different shape... maybe just the angle though.
    No they are just the standard CSi ones

    Quote Originally Posted by gloglosse View Post
    beautiful 8 and beautiful color ( this green is awesome )
    great pictures
    Thank you. Yes I agree, my E38 just doesn't suit Oxford green like the 8, the black wheels help also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatandre View Post
    I find this impressive, but dont understand the low numbers.
    Pictures also look good!!
    Thanks.....email heading your way

    Quote Originally Posted by ManManinc View Post
    Impressive. Regardless if it only has 55,000 on it, the loss of power might be due to age of components rather than wear.
    Agree, I'm going to try new plugs and distributor caps but I have a feeling the lovely sounding exhaust it not so good for power.....BMW probably spend a lot more money and time fine tuning compared to after market companies.

    Mine doesn't have the X-over section, I doubt that would cause that much loss but you never know.
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 11-12-2012 at 04:18 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  12. #87
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    That sounds like a good idea. Maybe you can get the coils from pheonixmotorsport, including the other things you mentioned. Apparently people are saying its better for those higher compression engines unlike my ole M70.
    Broke but feeling great!

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    After market exhaust system? I guess it could be, but the manifolds are standard and the Cats removed....I would have though that would help but you never know.

    Lazy MAF? gving the DME's low readings and therefore running at a lower max output? I will have to try and trace the MAF chart using Tunerpro at WOT.

    At 55,000 miles the eninge is barely run in, it has new air filters, new fuel filters, new MSD high power igniton coils. Maybe that's all the CSi will make in Standard trim.

    Has anyone else put their CSi on a Dyno?
    Yes, several times at different stages of mods and fixes. Originally it was pegged at (calculated flywheel) 340bhp. Then after much work and modding, 391bhp with stock ECU. Measured wheel BHP was 335 IRC.
    I havent put it up with the Conforti chips yet. Car had 125k miles on it then, now over 130k miles.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ia7WbURZII[/ame]



    DeCat'ed and Magnaflow backboxes, refurbed TB's, 1 new MAF, one original, new ignition wiring (stock size), refurbed but stock sized injectors and fueling (I think, some time ago now), new filters, synthetic oil all round, new rotors and distributors, new stock coils and copper plugs (since changed to MSD + Iridiums) and some other stuff Ive totally forgot.


    Im going to go back to 3bar FPRs with 15lb or 16lb injectors I think, replace the intake manifold gaskets and do a little bit more intake air flow mods and re-dyno.


    PS: 4th gear isnt 1:1 ratio, thats 5th. 4th is 1.35:1:
    http://www.e31.net/technical.html
    Last edited by mattsimis; 09-27-2012 at 05:54 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManManinc View Post
    That sounds like a good idea. Maybe you can get the coils from pheonixmotorsport, including the other things you mentioned. Apparently people are saying its better for those higher compression engines unlike my ole M70.
    Yes the car has High power coils from Pheonix, obviously only MSD coils but a very nice mounting plate that would cost more time and effort to reproduce.....so overall a very nice package and price from Pheonix.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattsimis View Post
    Yes, several times at different stages of mods and fixes. Originally it was pegged at (calculated flywheel) 340bhp. Then after much work and modding, 391bhp with stock ECU. Measured wheel BHP was 335 IRC.
    I havent put it up with the Conforti chips yet.


    DeCat'ed and Magnaflow backboxes, refurbed TB's, 1 new MAF, one original, new ignition wiring (stock size), refurbed but stock sized injectors and fueling (I think, some time ago now), new filters, synthetic oil all round, new rotors and distributors, new stock coils and copper plugs (since changed to MSD + Iridiums) and some other stuff Ive totally forgot.



    Im going to go back to 3bar FPRs with 15lb or 16lb injectors I think, replace the intake manifold gaskets and do a little bit more intake air flow mods and re-dyno.
    Thanks for the info. So was your exhaust standard to the Cat section? did you keep a X-over? what kind of work did you do to get it up to 390? thats a big jump!

    Looking at your dyno sheet there is a funny thing going oin around 4kRPM....I remember seeing some odd numbers for timing and fueling in the WOT maps around there.....you can see mine has no issues at that point with the modified map......just low overall

    I like those DynoDynamic RRoads......I want to buy one
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 09-27-2012 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post

    Thanks for the info. So was your exhaust standard to the Cat section? did you keep a X-over? what kind of work did you do to get it up to 390? thats a big jump!

    Looking at your dyno sheet there is a funny thing going oin around 4kRPM....I remember seeing some odd numbers for timing and fueling in the WOT maps around there.....you can see mine has no issues at that point with the modified map......just low overall
    Well Dynos are Dynos, different time of year, temp, pre and post ignition system overhaul, pre and post blocked cat removal, pre and post Magnaflow, new O2s in that run too.
    I have stock crossover on exhaust and IRC thats it, the rest is all new piping.

    My understanding on the 4k blip was thats where the stock CSi "enhancements" over stock 850i cam and tune comes in? Its certainly the peak torque point anyhow (note that the scaling for Torque and BHP are not the same in that chart, as is normal/common for Dyno charts)

  16. #91
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    Inertia and steady state Dyno's are very different but lets not get on that subject. The Dastek and D Dynamics are the same type so thats useful.


    I think I will try a X over on my pipes along with Dizzy caps and plugs.
    My fuel ratios were steady and perfect on both sides so no problem with injectors.

    As far as I can tell the MAF values aren't used at WOT.....the throttle switch lets the DME know to run WOT map (VIA the EML) the WOT map is only 2d.....fuel value x RPM. The WOT Igniton map is also 2D. No O2 sensor reading at WOT either.

    Yes I meant 5th as mine was tested in 4th.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    As far as I can tell the MAF values aren't used at WOT.....the throttle switch lets the DME know to run WOT map (VIA the EML) the WOT map is only 2d.....fuel value x RPM. The WOT Igniton map is also 2D. No O2 sensor reading at WOT either.
    Ah yes of course, forgot that! I know from real world experience that when I had a bad MAF and bad O2s (fun times!) the car would only drive "normal" at WOT, it couldnt handle cruise at all!

  18. #93
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    A quick clip of the car on the rollers.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKcT8vTMK0g&list=UUByiUpODVwxldNJwZ-msxyA&index=1&feature=plcp[/ame]

    I took a look at my distributor caps and plugs yesterday ...




    No centre pins! Worn to the metal....I doubt that helped

    The plugs were the correct type and looked fine

    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 09-29-2012 at 06:33 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsimis View Post
    Ah yes of course, forgot that! I know from real world experience that when I had a bad MAF and bad O2s (fun times!) the car would only drive "normal" at WOT, it couldnt handle cruise at all!

    I just figured out what the bump in your torque curve is......it's where your car climbs the rollers

  20. #95
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    Need to strap that bad girl better down
    Current Cars:
    1994 BMW 850 CiA (2017 km). My black on black Wokke'd 5.4l V12 autobahnmuncher
    1992 Donkervoort S8AT (105k km). The mad dutch "Super 7." 300hp/ton of turbo power!
    2013 VW Caravelle 4Motion (57k km). A dark wine red 180PS/400Nm 2.0 BiTDI rocketvan
    2007 SMC F-Kart 50. 88cc of street legal go-kart hilarity, and a 1968 Cadillac Coupé DeVille Convertible 472.

    "The best way to go broke-by-german-car is to buy an 8 series bmw with a v12" - Perc
    "Torque is like pron. You can't really define it, but you will recognize it." - ElToro

  21. #96
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    Bit of an update. After fitting new plugs, distributor rotors and caps the car was running better, until today. The EML light kept coming on. I had the ignition switch on with the engine off to listen to the DK motors, 1 was humming and the other making odd clunking sounds.

    I pulled them off the car and found the brushes all clogged up with dirt. Maybe this was part of the problem all along. I will stick them back on the car tomorrow and see how it runs.

    The car being parked up for 6 years has its good points as far as mileage goes.....and it's bad points







    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 10-04-2012 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  22. #97
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    The commutator is certainly dirty, but does look like there is years of life still in it!
    Timm..2007 E64 650i Individual Sport..1999 E31 840ci Individual Sport..ex owner of 2000 E38 740..1999 E38 740i V8 M62..1998 E38 735i V8..1993 E32 730i V8..1988 E28 518i


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  23. #98
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    Yeah they cleaned up like new.

    Here is a shot showing which pins to connect for testing. The upper pin (3) needs to be + voltage and the lower pin (5) negative. Set an adjustable power supply to 5 volts then set the amps to zero. As you wind up the amps to 2.5 amps the plate should open fully then return as you lower the amps.




    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOVc0smPRIQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 10-04-2012 at 06:19 PM.

  24. #99
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    More progress. I was looking for an EML fault and decided to run INPA on my DME's to look for any faults. While I was looking at the stats screen with igniton timing etc, I noticed left and right DME's had different ignition timing values at idle. I checked the DME files using tunerpro, I thought I'd better check them one at a time as I had been using tunerpro in dual emulator mode. I found one DME still had the stock maps and the other one had the modified map. I checked tunerpro settings and found the dual emulator box had unchecked itself. that probably explains my lack of power on the dyno
    While I was at it I decided to modify the checksums on the tuned files to match the original. On the 850's the checksum is calculated using address 0000 to 7FFF (the whole file) then run a 16bit checksum calculation and it will give you a 4 byte value. For example my original checksum was 3A3D for one of the DME's, the tuned file came out at 3B8B.

    If you then convert the hex values into decimal you get 14909 for the original and 15243 for the tuned file.

    14909 - 15243 = -334 so you have to remove that value from the unused area of the file which is a bunch of FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF values.

    FF = 255 in decimal so if you take FF (255) and FF (255) you have 510 . 510 -334 = 176 . 176 is B0 00 so you just replace the FF FF with B0 00 . Now when you run a checksum the value matches the original at 3A3D.

    This took me a while to figure out so I figured it may help someone else in the future.

    You can run without a corrected checkum but the engine check light will stay on.

    The EML seems to be happy now, so back to the DYNO soon.
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 10-15-2012 at 06:37 PM.

  25. #100
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    After you fixed that did you notice any difference in how the car runs?

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