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Thread: Live mapping 850CSi

  1. #26
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    OP - must say I'm surprised how little feedback you're getting on this thread generally.
    I'm wondering if people are sceptical of what you're attempting? Why are the big guns mostly staying quiet so far, i can't help wonder..
    I'm sure folks wish you well, not suggesting otherwise.

  2. #27
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    I miss my E31!!!!!!!!!!

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed303 View Post
    I just don't understand a lot of this.
    Maybe thats why the big guns are staying quiet too

    Sorry, big guns, kidding

  4. #29
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    This is all great stuff you are doing
    Enjoy it 20 years ago i would have dove right in
    I have to dig around for it i have a cd with all the code for every bmw modle racing dynamics chip every made i think. From 88 to 95
    In cluding the 850 pm an address i mail it to you can have fun pulling the code and maps apart and may get some ideas
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBmatic View Post
    OP - must say I'm surprised how little feedback you're getting on this thread generally.
    I'm wondering if people are sceptical of what you're attempting? Why are the big guns mostly staying quiet so far, i can't help wonder..
    I'm sure folks wish you well, not suggesting otherwise.
    I guess as these cars are old now, there is no money to be made and the tech behind what I'm attempting is old hat, well as far as playing with the DME's.....the EML is a little more " undiscovered " in terms of its program operation and commands.
    I will probably make a few mistakes along the way, but I've always had the mind set that, if someone else with 2 hands can do it, then so can I .
    I always need a project and once I'm done playing with the electronics side I'll buy a couple of heads, stick them on my friends flow bench and have a play with the ports.
    There is a lot I don't fully understand but please ask if you have any questions, if I can't answer them, maybe the "big guns" can\will

    PM sent E31parts.....thanks very much for your kind offer .
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 09-06-2012 at 12:58 AM.

  6. #31
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    That might be the thing. On the other hand I think Revtor might have something to say since he knows a lot when in comes to to the electrical part of the e31

  7. #32
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    Omega one thing you may want to look at is making an Alpha-N style map for the CSi. As you might know the MAFs for the CSi are unique to the CSi, making them rare and horrifically expensive. And it has 2 of course!

  8. #33
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    Yes Funny I was thinking that this morning......difficult without TPS sensors though, plus MAFs are very accurate when it comes to air volume/flow.

    I've had some success today running both emulators in tunerpro at once, thanks to Mark at Tunerpro. Now I can modify and upload values to both DME's with one click.

    I decided to look at Wide open throttle igition timing, I was shocked by how conservative the values were. I guess BMW had to take into account poor driving and poor fuel.

    Here is the standard timing map



    Here is my first attempt and modifying the timing map, it made a lot of difference in the power of the car on the test run.



    Now time to play with the part throttle igition

  9. #34
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    Yeah Buddeh!!
    This looks promising

  10. #35
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    The WOT made a big difference. I ended up adding more, up to 33 deg and made the ramp upto 3000rpm steeper. Even better results came after working on the part throttle maps......it feels so much quicker now.......like it had been towing another car before.

    It's still lean on one bank so I really need to figure that out, maybe a bad injector, seems to be out on all ranges....open and closed loop.

    Will try and get it on the dyno next week, a run with the original code and another with the modified one.
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 09-07-2012 at 03:46 PM.

  11. #36
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    I have seen many chips for the CSI. Is that what they did or is this something new you are doing?

  12. #37
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    I'm an avid follower of this thread - working on the maps must be so exciting! I would suppose that the only downside of making the ignition maps (especially WOT) more aggressive is the possibility of running into detonation problems. Does the Csi powerplant have knock-sensors to counteract this possibility?
    Timm..2007 E64 650i Individual Sport..1999 E31 840ci Individual Sport..ex owner of 2000 E38 740..1999 E38 740i V8 M62..1998 E38 735i V8..1993 E32 730i V8..1988 E28 518i


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  13. #38
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    No it's nothing new, pretty much all you can do to any Normally aspirated car is move ignition timing to the optimum point and ensure fuel mixture is correct......the manufacturer keeps timing retarded to some extent as the engine gives off more noxious gasses when you bring it closer to max power. We have 98/99 octane fuel here in the UK, what's the highest rating you guys across the pond get at the pumps?

    No the CSi doesn't have any knock sensors, again , that another reason the timing would have been set like that......low octane fuel, driving style etc .
    A few years ago I rebuilt a Datsun 2.8 from the bottom up, I think stock output was around 160bhp. I lowered the CR, ARP bolts on the crank, rods and head with a 2mm steel head gasket to drop the CR to around 8.3:1. Fitted a big turbo from a dodge Ram diesel, fully mappable fuel injection and ignition ripped from a ford V6...that thing pulled like a train 360bhp at 1bar of boost and around the same figure in Lb/ft of torque....that was a really old 2 valve design engine, I just wanted to see what could be done using modern technology on an old lump.....imagine what a 5.6 could do? 600 + would be no sweat ��

    Anyway my point was, during that build I adapted a knock sense kit to feed a signal to the ECU to retard the timing under a knock condition...I was amazed how little noise there was....it would flash on a bright LED to give a visual indication of knock in the cabin....you couldn't hear the engine knock but it was happening alright.

    So, I emailed a company that builds knock sense kits which have multiple sensors a few weeks back, I'd probably go with 4 sensor setup like the M73 uses, the tricky part is capturing the frequency using a spectrum analyser...different engines produce different sounding "knock" but apart from high RPM it is without doubt the worst thing an engine can suffer. I was thinking I could feed an appropriate signal into the DME via the ABS input....this would causes the DME to immediately reduce power like it does during loss of traction....that or feed into the EML, I'll take a look if I decide to twin turbo at a later date

    Maximum torque will probably be a fair way away from the point of knock, if it knocks then it was probably loosing power a fair few degrees beforehand.

    Here is a clip of the first start of that old 1972 240z...360 bhp in a 1000kg car.....that was fun

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tun4UG6a0o&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 09-07-2012 at 08:40 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  14. #39
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    Omega man - do you not worry a little about using your CSi as a guinea pig? Could be an expensive experiment I would have thought.

    Also, I'm curious to know what the term 'live' mapping means compared to what we call a 'remap' usually here in the UK. Is it the same thing?

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBmatic View Post
    Omega man - do you not worry a little about using your CSi as a guinea pig? Could be an expensive experiment I would have thought.

    Also, I'm curious to know what the term 'live' mapping means compared to what we call a 'remap' usually here in the UK. Is it the same thing?
    Hi, no I'm nt worried, I can see the fuel mixture and the timing will be checked once on the dyno.

    Live mapping as in making adjustments while the engine is running, held at. Constant rpm/load while timing / mixture is adjusted to optimum levels.

    At the moment I'm just making changes sat in the seat with the ignition on and then testing on the road, it would be a, Nightmare without the emulators. A remap could be live, just a generic chip change or pre made file uploaded to the ECU.

  16. #41
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    That Datsun must have been fun. The engine bay on it also looked very nice.
    Gerry (8tech) has been supercharging his CSI. Maybe thats what you are talking about.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    No it's nothing new, pretty much all you can do to any Normally aspirated car is move ignition timing to the optimum point and ensure fuel mixture is correct......the manufacturer keeps timing retarded to some extent as the engine gives off more noxious gasses when you bring it closer to max power. We have 98/99 octane fuel here in the UK, what's the highest rating you guys across the pond get at the pumps?

    No the CSi doesn't have any knock sensors, again , that another reason the timing would have been set like that......low octane fuel, driving style etc .
    A few years ago I rebuilt a Datsun 2.8 from the bottom up, I think stock output was around 160bhp. I lowered the CR, ARP bolts on the crank, rods and head with a 2mm steel head gasket to drop the CR to around 8.3:1. Fitted a big turbo from a dodge Ram diesel,

    Here is a clip of the first start of that old 1972 240z...360 bhp in a 1000kg car.....that was fun
    Great job with the mapping,

    Interesting on the 72 240z as well, Best 240 ever by the way, Did you change the head or block? I use to Race them for Rising Sun racing Scca, Culver City, Ca. Did you use a ZX Block or 5 Speed trans? They bolt right up, What type of Head was on the car, Can you recall the diff used, We were very finatic about these cars, Built 7 of them with V8's for customers, We had a quarter mile time of 10.9 with 125 octane, No nitrous, Thanks!
    Last edited by 8eights; 09-08-2012 at 11:35 AM.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8eights View Post
    Great job with the mapping,

    Interesting on the 72 240z as well, Best 240 ever by the way, Did you change the head or block? I use to Race them for Rising Sun racing Scca, Culver City, Ca. Did you use a ZX Block or 5 Speed trans? They bolt right up, What type of Head was on the car, Can you recall the diff used, We were very finatic about these cars, Built 7 of them with V8's for customers, We had a quarter mile time of 10.9 with 125 octane, No nitrous, Thanks!
    Iirc it was a p90 head and an f54 2.8 ltr block....block number maybe wrong. Gearbox was standard 240z 5 speed. I fitted a spec aluminium flywheel and 6 puck clutch, r200 LSD, later 280zx fuel injection manifold, custom fuel rail, 650cc injectors, EDIS ignition, mega squirt ii ECU, knock sense controller, innovate wide band, holset HE351 turbo, 3" stainless exhaust system, custom adjustable struts with custom adjustable inserts, 2 1/4" inch springs, updated anti roll bars, willwood 4 pot brake conversion, rear disc conversion, roll cage, harnesses plus a load of other stuff ........
    The head and block were standard, nothing but new pistons, bearings, valves, turbo motor oil pump and Arizona Z Alloy trap door style racing sump.

    I'd love to see some pictures of your old race cars.....probably one of the best looking cars ever made.

    1/4 time of 10.9!!! Christ on a bicycle, that's fast.



    Just before I sold it.
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 09-09-2012 at 02:15 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  19. #44
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    I love those 240'z, very old school cool.
    I have Conforti chips in my CSi and will just throw out/volunteer that Im on for helping or aiding in scraping any more performance out of it in any manner i can.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    Iirc it was a p90 head and an f54 2.8 ltr block....block number maybe wrong. Gearbox was standard 240z 5 speed. I fitted a spec aluminium flywheel and 6 puck clutch, r200 LSD, later 280zx fuel injection manifold, custom fuel rail, 650cc injectors, EDIS ignition, mega squirt ii ECU, knock sense controller, innovate wide band, holset HE351 turbo, 3" stainless exhaust system, custom adjustable struts with custom adjustable inserts, 2 1/4" inch springs, updated anti roll bars, willwood 4 pot brake conversion, rear disc conversion, roll cage, harnesses plus a load of other stuff ........
    The head and block were standard, nothing but new pistons, bearings, valves, turbo motor oil pump and Arizona Z Alloy trap door style racing sump.

    I'd love to see some pictures of your old race cars.....probably one of the best looking cars ever made.

    1/4 time of 10.9!!! Christ on a bicycle, that's fast.



    Just before I sold it.
    Very nice! No US 240's came standard with a 5 speed, It had to come from a 79 thru 83 ZX, I see you have a 77/78 hood on there, I have several pics, I'll have to scan them into my computer, Those were some good days, Do you know what was the best and most reliable head of all for a 280 or 280zx block? 240Z E31 heads! They were killer, You could easily get 10:1 out of them, Any woo i'll get around of scanning some pics up, Don't wanna side track a really interesting thread to much.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsimis View Post
    I love those 240'z, very old school cool.
    I have Conforti chips in my CSi and will just throw out/volunteer that Im on for helping or aiding in scraping any more performance out of it in any manner i can.
    I could burn my current tune after I've been on the dyno onto a couple of chips for you to try if you like you could compare performance to your existing chips.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    I could burn my current tune after I've been on the dyno onto a couple of chips for you to try if you like you could compare performance to your existing chips.
    I would be interested in doing that for sure. I would even be able to get some dyno runs with the different chips and give you the results, local tuning/dyno place would be happy to accommodate me on a quiet day.

    Only problem is my car isnt stock, air intake is modified (though not in any radical manner) and I have lower fuel pressure (2.7bar) but larger injectors (works out at 168cc IRC). Im also running MSD Coils with Iridium plugs.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsimis View Post
    I would be interested in doing that for sure. I would even be able to get some dyno runs with the different chips and give you the results, local tuning/dyno place would be happy to accommodate me on a quiet day.

    Only problem is my car isnt stock, air intake is modified (though not in any radical manner) and I have lower fuel pressure (2.7bar) but larger injectors (works out at 168cc IRC). Im also running MSD Coils with Iridium plugs.
    Ok I'll burn a couple for you, can you PM me your address?

    I guess your dyno op will have a wide band , hopefully a double setup .....although I'm not a big fan of the "push up the exhaust" type used, it should give you an idea of WOT mixture. I'd like to see what kind of timing is used on the chips you have. Do you have access to an EPROM reader ?
    Did you standard injectors run out of flow or did you change them just in case ?

    I'm assuming the charts used to calculate Injector size are on the safe side and that BMW fitted the closest possible to max size injector to give a nice tuning resolution, big injectors can be a real pig to fine tune.

  24. #49
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    Dyno booked for this Friday

  25. #50
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    So we will se le before and after?

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