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Thread: Live mapping 850CSi

  1. #1
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    Live mapping 850CSi

    I've decided to dig into the CSi DME's and have a play with the settings.

    My plan eventually is to squeeze a little more power out of it, at the same time investigate certain things like the EML and Injector duty cycle.

    I checked the injector part numbers when I was rebuilding my engine and they seem to be too small to give the kind of power stated for the CSi......Well if not too small they are very very close to cycle saturation for the flow rate specified.

    I have removed the DME's and EML, removed the Eproms, read the original files and replaced them with Ostrich 2 emulators. I put the units back in the car yesterday and spent a day driving around, just to make sure it's happy and running as it was without the emulators in place. It took a few minutes to settle down as expected, but after that it drove perfectly.

    My next step is to install my 2 MTX innovate wideband sensors in place of the standard O2 sensors, hooking up the simulated narrow band output of the MTX's to the DME's. Once that's done I can log Air/fuel and monitor the fuel/timing maps using Tuner Pro (once I figure out how to run 2 emulators at once)
    I had a basic XDF file drawn up by a Guy from the Tunerpro forum, It was a great help and gave me the initial step I needed to understand the way XDF files are setup, with a lot of reading I managed to add the full map address list, further maps and constants.
    For now I am just emulating the 2 DME's but then I will monitor 1 DME and the EML...that way I can figure out a little more about the relationship between road speed/injector duty cycle and its relationship to throttle movement/respsonse.
    I will probably hook up a scope directly to 1 injector bank from each side of the engine, just to confirm actual duty cycle to expected duration. I may also hook up a pot to the throttle plate in order to log 0 to 5v (closed to WOT) movement along with dual fuel pressure sensors.
    I would really like to install the AEM Propshaft dyno but unfortunately they don't make one for the Getrag ouput shaft setup.....maybe I can adapt it somehow.....that would be so useful for live road tuning.
    I will post some pictures as the project progresses.
    Please feel free to chime with suggestions/advice....I have a good knowledge of engine tuning and microprocessor design.....it's the Bosch software that is new to me. I'm sure with a little time and lots of testing I can figure all I need to know.

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/76310913/csiostrich2a.JPG

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/76310913/DM...0850%20CSi.jpg
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 08-20-2012 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  2. #2
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    Hey,

    Do something for the M73, too.

  3. #3
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    Ambitious! admirable.. don't lose that fire for the ultimate DIY.

    Seems to me two laptops are needed and the clocks need sync'd each time you use them so the logs have the best shot at being used together. Seems to me though that if you had to, you could make changes to one side then re-run and make changes to the other side.. iterate back/fourth I mean. Tricky I think that changes made in one side will slightly affect the other side. On the other hand.. the 2 halves are identical.. so you could get away with simply transferring changes made in one side to the other.. no?

    I'm set up with Ostrich, and TP R/T from years ago.. but no xdf's for my 94 V8 4.0L. haven't touched the e31's DME (oddly enough I just started winding-up to do so and saw your post). wasn't looking forward to pulling stuff out from scratch I really hope there's something "out there" already started for mine.

    Bosch- I recall a ton of Motronic info (seemed to be what everyone wanted "back then" when I was starting out with my (other brand). Motronic 1.0 to 1.3 or something. I hope the available stuff has grown.

    OH for the duty cycle- some considerations... at 6000 rpm remember you have 2 crank cycles worth of time available to you not 1. It's okay to spray half the fuel onto a closed valve. Also the injectors are rated for a certain g/s or l/s at a certain fuel pressure.. and the car may USE a DIFFERENT fuel pressure than that for which the injector is rated.

    You'll have to put 2 more bungs in for the widebands unless they have a separate output to feed a simulated narrowband signal back to your DME.. otherwise what will the car use to control itself?

    I'll be very surprised if road speed matters to the injectors but I will say I have seen it sorta in "detected gear" which can be determined from rpm/mph. In the lower gears the R's rise more quickly and a bit more fuel is needed to keep the 02 sensors happy. After warmup period typically 95% of the math is load(mass airflow in our case which is electronically temperature compensated) and rpm, then tweaks from coolant temp and throttle position(accel pump mimic) then long-term "learned" tiny tweaks for altitude, wear, condition, and initial factory errors.. finally last short term operating tweaks (to dial-in 14.7:1 AFR at the o2 sensors). That's just in general I have no idea how BMW DME does it.

    Gotta wideband, and an EGT if you're old skool enough to appreciate that technology. Assembly.. CHECK(believe it or not). I'm ready let's go!
    Last edited by CMPNS8N; 08-20-2012 at 10:04 PM. Reason: typo

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    ...I had a basic XDF file drawn up by a Guy from the Tunerpro forum, It was a great help and gave me the initial step I needed to understand the way XDF files are setup, with a lot of reading I managed to add the full map address list, further maps and constants....
    and yet when another member asked you to share that XDF file, you sent him this? http://db.tt/twelWG2q

    That's a little douchey, don't you think?

    Years back I played in that sandbox too and the thing that made it better was helping each other - as someone else did for you. Considering that any of the XDF's for our cars are hard to find and/or incomplete, it just seems wrong to me to not share something new.

    and yeah, they guy was a bit demanding, but still...

    No, it wasn't me either

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartoonz View Post
    and yet when another member asked you to share that XDF file, you sent him this? http://db.tt/twelWG2q

    That's a little douchey, don't you think?

    Years back I played in that sandbox too and the thing that made it better was helping each other - as someone else did for you. Considering that any of the XDF's for our cars are hard to find and/or incomplete, it just seems wrong to me to not share something new.

    and yeah, they guy was a bit demanding, but still...

    No, it wasn't me either
    A little douchey? Ok let me get this straight. I spent hours messing about with my car, then pay $225 for an XDF for the DME and EML and his response is "share your XDF now"
    I don't like bad manners, and that was my idea of some fun with the guy. Had he replied with a please or thank you, maybe even some kind of useful input .....then I would have gladly shared with him.
    I don't think I was being at all "douchey" I thought it was very funny


    Right now back to the topic .

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfresh View Post
    Hey,

    Do something for the M73, too.
    We didn't get that engine in the E31 here, I'd need a late 750 e38 for that

    CMPNS8N....thanks for the tips. I do have a decent EGT unit, I think it has an output for logging. Yes the MTX wide band have simulated narrow band.

    As far as using the 2 emulators, I think Emutility will update the 2nd DME while TunerPro updates the first, it gives them different hardware id's....failing that TunerPro does support dual emulators for 16bit applications, maybe I can try that route as well.

    On the CSi RPM is limited by road speed as it has different limits for certain gears, this must be calculated using vehicle speed as the gearbox only has a reverse light connection.

    Anyway, I promise not to YMCA good manners

    Cartoonz, once I have double checked the XDF by map tracing I will post it on the TunerPro XDF.
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 08-21-2012 at 02:28 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  6. #6
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    Now that its clear that it cost you $$, it makes total sense. Didn't glean that from your first post here, so my bad for being snarky. And since the guy was rather rude, I do see your point.

    I'm interested in how this all works out for you. When I got into it, I was trying to remap the M70 DME's to tune for my 6 Liter beast. There is a definite lack of variety over there for the M70 maps, I noticed today that only the original files I started with are there even still - and that map is not exactly complete.

    Needless to say, please keep us posted on your adventures with the Ostrich 2.0 setup, that's something I might be interested in when I complete the new engine.

  7. #7
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    Hi there having a CSi I am for sure interested in this tread
    Will follow closely


    Regards
    Terje

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartoonz View Post
    Now that its clear that it cost you $$, it makes total sense. Didn't glean that from your first post here, so my bad for being snarky. And since the guy was rather rude, I do see your point.

    I'm interested in how this all works out for you. When I got into it, I was trying to remap the M70 DME's to tune for my 6 Liter beast. There is a definite lack of variety over there for the M70 maps, I noticed today that only the original files I started with are there even still - and that map is not exactly complete.

    Needless to say, please keep us posted on your adventures with the Ostrich 2.0 setup, that's something I might be interested in when I complete the new engine.
    no worries, it's all just fun.

    Ah that was your bin and XDF , I looked at that, it's very similar to the 069.....the map addresses are offset but very similar. I'll add a few more to it for you .

  9. #9
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    ooooh those old feelings are coming back...

    This is how I lost traction at work.. too much time at home applied to "hobby" rather than "work". Tracing through Motorola code using "notice11" at 4am.. yeeup.

    Anyway that's great that the WB has a NB output.. we didn't have that in the 90's... and driveshaft dynos? nope- gains were measured by VSS (vehicle speed sensor) tick transition periods going up the same hill, 3rd gear at full throttle from 1500rpm to 5850rpm.. then fine-tuned on the chassis dyno of course.

    I took a read from my DME (502 I think) in the '95 M3 (OBD1) and had grand plans.. found a few dimensional tables with the 'ol "graph the bytes" method and never took it any farth er forward from there. Really REALLY wish I still had that car- my favorite by far even against the sunroof-less 2002 M3 SMG. Anyway my point- I don't even know what DME is in my 94 840CI.. I'm starting out from dead scratch.. I have about an hour each night to myself so count me in but I'm also doing an exhaust replacement with that time.

    I see a "404" xdf on Tunerpro site.. described as "540i" so I'm starting there. Gotta find my prom reader...

    Starting small...

    Omega have you changed any one single byte on a map for your car and verified that the checksum calculation is good? (um, does the DME even apply a checksum??)

    *edit- The thread title isn't about my silly little V8.. I'm gonna back off of sticking my V8 stuff in here but I'll contribute where I can! I didn't mean to hijack.
    Last edited by CMPNS8N; 08-21-2012 at 10:47 PM.

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  10. #10
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    I have the same v8 in my E38, what an engine, ultra smooth and bags of torque, topped off with 28MPG on a long run. Mine had the 404 DME as its the 4.4 but.......it's OBD2. It's been while since I had it apart to repair the DME, Motronic 5.2 rings a bell. If only the V12 had individual cylinder fuel and ignition timing with knock detection like that.
    I think they are rated at 286hp but I'd say it must be nearer 320, the potential for that engine is huge.


    I've spent hours looking at the 069 bins, they are identical apart from 5 bytes which are the different part numbers that match the white label on the lids.
    Tuner pro automatically updates the checksums, I'm not sure where the start and end bytes of the checksum address is, maybe I need to specify that within TPro....I'll look into it.

    I have very little time as work is hectic right now, it's frustrating as I want to fit the wide bands and get on with it .

    Note on the fuel pressure, the M70 and S70 used the same 3 bar fuel pressure regulators, pumps and injectors. The M73 uses 3.5 bar regulators, I may fit those and wind back the injector constant as a quick fix if I find it runs out of fuel at the top end.

    Tell me more about using the speed sensor for power measurement, I like the idea of that, I could rig up a counter to read the pulses.

    Edit: I just checked my 740, mine is the 474 DME..I guess you have the earlier 404.
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 08-22-2012 at 05:33 PM.

  11. #11
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    Now this is a thread worth looking at. So much usefull knowledge.

  12. #12
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    I managed to spend an hour working on my car this eve. I removed the standard O2 sensors, fitted the new ones and routed the cables upto the engine bay. I pulled the associated cabling back up into the engine bay to allow me to connect the MTX units to the DME's. I cut the original sensor connectors off inside the rubber boots, that way I can solder them back together without any visable joints .
    I need to feed some cables through the bulkhead , is there a known "easy" route from engine bay to the interior ? (drivers side) passenger side for you LHD guys

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    I need to feed some cables through the bulkhead , is there a known "easy" route from engine bay to the interior ? (drivers side) passenger side for you LHD guys
    Copying the answer from Bryson to a previous post inquiring the same ...

    "route the wires through the rubber grommet underneath the fuse box which is made for this purpose."

    Good luck !!

  14. #14
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    Excellent! Thanks . Hopefully I'll have it all ready to go by Sunday afternoon.

  15. #15
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    Nice progress.. my first "todo" has yet to be completed.. read the chip. I'm still assuming 404.

    on the VSS "dyno".. the vehicle speed log updated about 8 times a second with a resolution of 0.1mph. simply plotting the deltas gives you a "relative torque curve". The HILL is used to grab more samples per second(prolong the run). Poor-man's but it's free. Folks later made rigs to attach directly to the BUS and grab many times the factory datastream's rate. Tunerpro of course is awesome for scan rate using an Ostrich.

    We know of course that using a cheezey dyno, or even a real one to gauge tweaking results based on torque curve isn't the right way to go about things anyway.. ya gotta get the AFR to where it needs to be before considering that you're ready to check out the power gains.

    I hope to have my BIN read on saturday... still gotta find my burn1.

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  16. #16
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    Yep the Air/fuel will be interesting, the new MTX system is a lot faster than the old LC-1, I would imagine that BMW kept things pretty rich and the timing fairly mild at the top end due to lack of knock sense. A decent Eddy current dyno is a very useful
    Tool for setting optimum ignition but unfortunately I rarely see owners taking care of the cooling side of things.....IMO fans should be fixed to the cars intake, otherwise it will just flow around the car.
    Could you imagine trying to stand upright in a 100mph wind ? Then you see people screaming the hell out of their cars with nothing more that a breeze for cooling .....crazy!!

    Burn1 hey? So are you going to start your tuning as well ?
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 08-30-2012 at 02:37 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    .......

    Edit: I just checked my 740, mine is the 474 DME..I guess you have the earlier 404.
    I guess it's a typo and should be 484.

  18. #18
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    Nope, it's a 0 261 203 474

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega man 1969 View Post
    Nope, it's a 0 261 203 474
    isn't the 474 for 8 cylinder m62? 540/740/840

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by koenig d View Post
    isn't the 474 for 8 cylinder m62? 540/740/840
    Yes that's correct, at some point a few posts up we were talking about an 840CI and then the V8 engine in my 740i E38 and which DME was running in it.

  21. #21
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    I had a few hours spare this eve, I decided to route the cables thru to the fuse box area .....but then I found this lot lurking under the dash



    I'd been meaning to remove the alarm , pager and auto start as it nearly killed me trying to start in gear .....plus the voice is very annoying. I didn't expect so many wires though. It's going to take me a few more hours to put it back to normal.

  22. #22
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    Ok a bit more progress . I now have the wide bands hooked up. One thing I wasn't expecting was the DME to turn the heater power on and off depending on load....I knew there are tables that take lambda into consideration but assumed power would be on all the time the engine was running, my gauges switched off everytime
    I tried to open the throttle more the gentle acceleration. I will have to source a 12v feed from elsewhere .
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmk-6MkkSP8&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

  23. #23
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    I had a day to play with the car today. I managed to hook up the laptop and change some of the idle map values (just to check all is ok) . After restarting the car I had no engine check lamp.....so I guess I don't have to worry about the checksum issue.
    I tried a few WOT runs to check the mixture, seems to be a little lean just before WOT but once my foot was on the floor it settled at around 12.8, I noticed bank 1 to 7 settled a little leaner at 13.2 so maybe an issue with an injector, I will swap O2 sensors over just to check its not a false reading.
    After some time messing about with TunerPro I got the live address tracing working....it's pretty cool to see the ECU selecting different maps when viewing the map address table....for those of you that haven't looked at the moronic software before , basically the contents of the Chip hold the program that includes instructions to tell the ECU (DME) what to do ....squirt fuel, fire a spark plug etc. it also holds the data to tell it when to spark or how long to squirt fuel in....these are the map tables.

    The ECU needs to know where these tables are located within the code...this is called the map address table, it holds the location of each table. On the CSi the map table is located at
    4560h address ......it's easy to spot as you will see a string of very similar looking hex values which are the addresses.....like this 48 2C 48 32 48 4C 48 56 48 5E and so on.
    So the first map is located at 48 2C and the next at 48 32. The problem is deciphering the maps

    Next step is to have a look at the ignition timing and rig up a way to monitor actual throttle plate angle .

  24. #24
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    I actually had a post last year questioning the fueling on the CSi, mathematically it doesnt work out, its simply insufficient outside some majorly efficient engine design (with a batch injection isnt). The many posts over the years regarding improving airflow not making any difference suggest this was the root cause (and no, its not cos the BMW intake is so amazingly good!).

    I tried 199cc injectors, drove fine but idled pants. I then tried peeling it back to 2.5bar FPRs, better but not right. I eventually ended up with a combo of FPRs (2.7 IRC) and injectors that gave me something like 168cc (vs 149cc stock I think, so within the same ballback mapping wise) which idles and drives perfect. At the very least 4pintle injectors are better than the crappy old single pintle stockers.

    All figures off the top of my head for now.


    Should get it up on the Dyno again, however seat of the pants suggest a more "eager" and responsive throttle.
    Last edited by mattsimis; 09-05-2012 at 06:14 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsimis View Post
    I actually had a post last year questioning the fueling on the CSi, mathematically it doesnt work out, its simply insufficient outside some majorly efficient engine design (with a batch injection isnt). The many posts over the years regarding improving airflow not making any difference suggest this was the root cause (and no, its not cos the BMW intake is so amazingly good!).

    I tried 199cc injectors, drove fine but idled pants. I then tried peeling it back to 2.5bar FPRs, better but not right. I eventually ended up with a combo of FPRs (2.7 IRC) and injectors that gave me something like 168cc (vs 149cc stock I think, so within the same ballback mapping wise) which idles and drives perfect. At the very least 4pintle injectors are better than the crappy old single pintle stockers.

    All figures off the top of my head for now.


    Should get it up on the Dyno again, however seat of the pants suggest a more "eager" and responsive throttle.
    Yes it was your Post that made me check my injectors while I had the engine in bits...Thanks
    I'm guessing the fuel will be fine at max load but that the engine is not producing the kind of power it should. It's going to take a while to map ignition timing....check static timing matches the suggested value.

    I'm going to swap the fuel feeds on Friday and a few other things to see what is causing one side to run lean....its tricky because the damn EML is running the show....I'll be very interested to see at what point the EML actually gives me WOT.....difference between K and S mode is very noiticable and thats all throttle response based.

    Once I have that sorted I will get a dyno run sorted just to give a baseline for future changes.

    Now I have an XDF you could swap larger injectors and dial back the constant
    Last edited by Omega man 1969; 09-05-2012 at 06:49 PM.

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