Something Wicked This Way Comes

[coupe du jour]

you kids and ur hand-grenades.

[clintjg]

That's why I'm having PTG's old engine builder do mine.

So no go boom.

[mcoupemindy]

That's why I'm having PTG's old engine builder do mine.

So no go boom.

An engine builder doesn't prevent hardware defects. Although yours should be pretty damn reliable as we know the S54 isnt capable of producing adequate part destroying,torque with FI (but it's damn good at horsepower).

[Adrian G.]

so.....going turbo?



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP5CtDmTIpc[/ame]

[Z3speed4me]

Motor failure is either tune or parts, I think Clint will be perfectly fine on both aspects... motor internals are already done and have thus far proven to be reliable with the prior beastly setup, so it's just a matter of tuner prowess at this point with the new found increase in output.

[clintjg]

Motor failure is either tune or parts, I think Clint will be perfectly fine on both aspects... motor internals are already done and have thus far proven to be reliable with the prior beastly setup, so it's just a matter of tuner prowess at this point with the new found increase in output.

True, but the highest quality parts on earth don't mean a damn thing if the guy putting it together isn't competent.

The story here is that although it was still running VERY strong, my motor was burning up plugs in cyl 5 and 6. Rather than risk the whole motor and perhaps more by swapping to a turbo and not addressing the hardware. I opted pull it and it refreshed first. This is how I sleep at night.

And, where needed, strengthed.

The motor will be freshened and dyno tuned on an engine dyno with the charger on it, and then reinstalled in the car that way. I will try to take the time to test fit the engine with the turbo manifold in place to get some ideas regarding fitment but the car will likely remain superchargered for at least the next 4-6months. This winter, funding available - I will purchase and fabricate the necessary turbo hardware.

Either way, the car will already be set up for it (as it has been) with standalone, a fresh motor (once again built for FI and increased power levels, including torque), a cleaned up engine bay, etc.

[mcoupemindy]

Motor failure is either tune or parts, I think Clint will be perfectly fine on both aspects... motor internals are already done and have thus far proven to be reliable with the prior beastly setup, so it's just a matter of tuner prowess at this point with the new found increase in output.

Since Clint is going to quit being a pansy and put a turbo on it, hopefully he has the balls to turn it up to see what the S54 can actually handle down low.

Supercharger != Turbo when it comes to engine building.

Hopefully he will have the block sleeved so he can run a smaller bore size and turn it up. The block better be o-ringed too (which is even more critical on the S54 than the S52) as to prevent combustion contamination when he turns it up beyond 30psi.

It still baffles me that no one can get more than 400ish wtq out of the S54 on pump gas. Lame.

[mpire]

Motor failure is either tune or parts, I think Clint will be perfectly fine on both aspects... motor internals are already done and have thus far proven to be reliable with the prior beastly setup, so it's just a matter of tuner prowess at this point with the new found increase in output.

Considering this is version 4 of the engine, I think it should survive.

[mcoupemindy]

True, but the highest quality parts on earth don't mean a damn thing if the guy putting it together isn't competent.

The story here is that although it was still running VERY strong, my motor was burning up plugs in cyl 5 and 6. Rather than risk the whole motor and perhaps more by swapping to a turbo and not addressing the hardware. I opted pull it and it refreshed first. This is how I sleep at night.

And, where needed, strengthed.

The motor will be freshened and dyno tuned on an engine dyno with the charger on it, and then reinstalled in the car that way. I will try to take the time to test fit the engine with the turbo manifold in place to get some ideas regarding fitment but the car will likely remain superchargered for at least the next 4-6months. This winter, funding available - I will purchase and fabricate the necessary turbo hardware.

Either way, the car will already be set up for it (as it has been) with standalone, a fresh motor (once again built for FI and increased power levels, including torque), a cleaned up engine bay, etc.

Money pending, I want to try to have my garage setup by the winter. You, of course, will be welcome to use it as necessary. Know any good electricians in the area that won't sink my bank account? I need to get sufficient power run to the garage as the first step.

[cleanerPA]

True, but the highest quality parts on earth don't mean a damn thing if the guy putting it together isn't competent.

The story here is that although it was still running VERY strong, my motor was burning up plugs in cyl 5 and 6. Rather than risk the whole motor and perhaps more by swapping to a turbo and not addressing the hardware. I opted pull it and it refreshed first. This is how I sleep at night.

And, where needed, strengthed.

.

If you're killing plugs, is it due to uneven air flow, hot spots or uneven fuel flow, or a combination of the three?

[clintjg]

If you're killing plugs, is it due to uneven air flow, hot spots or uneven fuel flow, or a combination of the three?

Yes, likely running lean in those cylinders but the question becomes 'why?'.

Is it bad valve seals?
Is it bad rings?
Is it a bad injector or two?
Is fuel pressure dropping?
Is something hinky with the tune?
Is there a physical obstruction somewhere in the intake or the exhaust?

Did the plug start arcing off the top of the piston or the head?

I ruled out the things that I thought it wasn't. The rest requred a thorough inspection in the form of removing the head. Well, at that point - you might as well pull the motor cause if it's rings, you're gonna have to deal with that anyway (which is where I was leaning in this case).

Trust me, I didn't want to pull and refresh the motor. Like I said, despite the plug issue it was still running STRONG. it was just the smart/safe thing to do at this point.

[mcoupemindy]

Yes, likely running lean in those cylinders but the question becomes 'why?'.

Is it bad valve seals?
Is it bad rings?
Is it a bad injector or two?
Is fuel pressure dropping?
Is something hinky with the tune?
Is there a physical obstruction somewhere in the intake or the exhaust?

Did the plug start arcing off the top of the piston or the head?

I ruled out the things that I thought it wasn't. The rest requred a thorough inspection in the form of removing the head. Well, at that point - you might as well pull the motor cause if it's rings, you're gonna have to deal with that anyway (which is where I was leaning in this case).

Trust me, I didn't want to pull and refresh the motor. Like I said, despite the plug issue it was still running STRONG. it was just the smart/safe thing to do at this point.

You are doing the right thing. Running it longer will only increase your bill at the end of the day.

[cleanerPA]

Yes, likely running lean in those cylinders but the question becomes 'why?'.

Is it bad valve seals?
Is it bad rings?
Is it a bad injector or two?
Is fuel pressure dropping?
Is something hinky with the tune?
Is there a physical obstruction somewhere in the intake or the exhaust?

Did the plug start arcing off the top of the piston or the head?

I ruled out the things that I thought it wasn't. The rest requred a thorough inspection in the form of removing the head. Well, at that point - you might as well pull the motor cause if it's rings, you're gonna have to deal with that anyway (which is where I was leaning in this case).

Trust me, I didn't want to pull and refresh the motor. Like I said, despite the plug issue it was still running STRONG. it was just the smart/safe thing to do at this point.

Can you elaborate on what you ruled out?

[Randy Forbes]

Have you given any consideration to Total Seal Gapless (2nd) rings?





Or heat-shielded piston tops/DFL skirts?



Bottoms coated to shed oil (keeps oil cooler)



DFL (dry-film lubricant) coated bearings?





Heat-shielded combustion chambers/valve faces?



Do you want me to continue...? http://www.spcarsplus.com/gallery3/index.php/Tweety_Two

[ZGator]

[Amuro Ray]

[clintjg]

Can you elaborate on what you ruled out?

Verified consistency of fuel pressure
Sent the fuel injectors off to be cleaned and flow tested.
Checked throttle and intake hardware for faults and/or leaks.
Installed new colder plugs.

Performed compression and leak down tests to try and determine if any internal hardware was compromised.

noticed that there appeared to be leakage past the rings, this theory was also reinforced by a leaky valve cover gasket.

drank lots of beer and stared at the engine bay....

[Mscire2]

Btw I'm just gonna swing by and borrow that 6spd since you don't need it right now

[clintjg]

Btw I'm just gonna swing by and borrow that 6spd since you don't need it right now

[cleanerPA]

Verified consistency of fuel pressure
Sent the fuel injectors off to be cleaned and flow tested.
Checked throttle and intake hardware for faults and/or leaks.
Installed new colder plugs.

Performed compression and leak down tests to try and determine if any internal hardware was compromised.

noticed that there appeared to be leakage past the rings, this theory was also reinforced by a leaky valve cover gasket.

drank lots of beer and stared at the engine bay....

Since you've already torn the engine down, are you going to add any of the stuff that Randy mentioned?

Leaky rings caused two of your cylinders to run lean?

[clintjg]

Since you've already torn the engine down, are you going to add any of the stuff that Randy mentioned?

Leaky rings caused two of your cylinders to run lean?

The motor was already 'built' but it will be rebuilt with increased capacity and capability. If some parts are determined safe and appropriate to reuse, they will, otherwise it'll be new stuff.

The builder is familiar with putting together MANY S54's, S62's, and S65's for racing applications with clients ranging from Turner to PTG as well as other race teams. Building this motor will be a collaborative effort involving the tuner and they've been provided some of my research just for grins. Things such as Randy suggests either have been or will be discussed and, if the collective opinion determines it's benificial to do so, we'll do it.

Everyone knows that this is a street car with engine longevity to be measured in miles and not a race engine which is measured in hours and it will be built accordingly.

No, I don't believe that leaky rings caused the lean conditions, but until the motor comes apart next week we won't know for sure what did. Leaky rings very likely were a result or a symptom of something else vs being the cause.

[Randy Forbes]

The motor was already 'built' but it will be rebuilt with increased capacity and capability. If some parts are determined safe and appropriate to reuse, they will, otherwise it'll be new stuff.

The builder is familiar with putting together MANY S54's, S62's, and S65's for racing applications with clients ranging from Turner to PTG as well as other race teams. Building this motor will be a collaborative effort involving the tuner and they've been provided some of my research just for grins. Things such as Randy suggests either have been or will be discussed and, if the collective opinion determines it's benificial to do so, we'll do it.

Everyone knows that this is a street car with engine longevity to be measured in miles and not a race engine which is measured in hours and it will be built accordingly.
No, I don't believe that leaky rings caused the lean conditions, but until the motor comes apart next week we won't know for sure what did. Leaky rings very likely were a result or a symptom of something else vs being the cause.

Reliability/longevity makes a better argument for the (multiple) polymer coatings, than does outright performance potential. It's a lot of effort for small measures of returns.

It's when you consider reduced water-jacket temperatures, cold-start lubrication benefits, does it start to make sense.

Perhaps hard to envision, but I've taken apart an MGB engine with 80k miles on its full complement of thermal barrier, thermal dispersant and dry-film lubricant coatings, and it was staggering to see NO WEAR on any of the moving parts. Fresh gaskets and bolt back together.

At a minimum though, I'd recommend incorporating the gapless rings, and with the pistons out, coating the tops/skirts is easy-peasy.

[clintjg]

Reliability/longevity makes a better argument for the (multiple) polymer coatings, than does outright performance potential. It's a lot of effort for small measures of returns.

It's when you consider reduced water-jacket temperatures, cold-start lubrication benefits, does it start to make sense.

Perhaps hard to envision, but I've taken apart an MGB engine with 80k miles on its full complement of thermal barrier, thermal dispersant and dry-film lubricant coatings, and it was staggering to see NO WEAR on any of the moving parts. Fresh gaskets and bolt back together.

At a minimum though, I'd recommend incorporating the gapless rings, and with the pistons out, coating the tops/skirts is easy-peasy.

As always, thank you Randy. What is your preferred brand of DFL?

[gmushial]

Reliability/longevity makes a better argument for the (multiple) polymer coatings, than does outright performance potential. It's a lot of effort for small measures of returns.

It's when you consider reduced water-jacket temperatures, cold-start lubrication benefits, does it start to make sense.

Perhaps hard to envision, but I've taken apart an MGB engine with 80k miles on its full complement of thermal barrier, thermal dispersant and dry-film lubricant coatings, and it was staggering to see NO WEAR on any of the moving parts. Fresh gaskets and bolt back together.

At a minimum though, I'd recommend incorporating the gapless rings, and with the pistons out, coating the tops/skirts is easy-peasy.

Any thoughts/comments toward using these coatings (all or some) for an unmodified 2.5L or 3.0L street engine? Also, what about in terms of cost/benefit or hassle/benefit? The DFL looks like a spray on - that seems pretty easy. What about the piston and chamber coatings - spray on and dry, or spray on and bake? And the total-seal rings?

[Randy Forbes]

As always, thank you Randy. What is your preferred brand of DFL?

More to do with being readily available, but I've never had any issues with application or the product during use (I guess some coatings, perhaps due to improper application, can flake off). See: http://techlinecoatings.com/hi-performance/default.htm

I use their "shop only" (solvent based) line of products. The "consumer grade" products are water based.

Any thoughts/comments toward using these coatings (all or some) for an unmodified 2.5L or 3.0L street engine? Also, what about in terms of cost/benefit or hassle/benefit? The DFL looks like a spray on - that seems pretty easy. What about the piston and chamber coatings - spray on and dry, or spray on and bake? And the total-seal rings?

Everything you need to know; check out their website for details: http://techlinecoatings.com/hi-performance/default.htm

Almost all of thier coatings require curing in an oven, typically 300*F with the part(s) "at temperature" one (1) hour.

The DFL coating requires burnishing (fine Scotchbrite) after curing/before use.

As for what application, street, hi-po or race, justifies its use, I haven't built an engine without the polymer coatings since 1992. If it rotates or slides, it's justified!