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Thread: Sick of loose steering in your e34?

  1. #176
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    moroza is offline MORΩN ΛABIA BMW CCA Member
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    I disagree as to the reason. It has nothing to do with comfort; a Lexus LS has a rack while a pre-Tacoma 'Yota has a box (Tacos have a rack). My understanding is that steerboxes are more durable, an impression formed in part by off-roader anecdotes that rack-equipped vehicles tend to break steering parts more often. See where they continue to be used: the heaviest vehicles, while almost all modern cars and lighter trucks have moved to racks. E34 front suspensions are ultimately derived from the E23 that was designed in the 70's, which were overbuilt in part because manufacturing tolerances back then were looser, and there was little to no computer-aided design that allowed lower margins of error. In other words, the main reason a RWD E34 has a box is historical inertia, the other side of which coin is obsolescence.

    They also have packaging advantages sometimes. As discussed previously in this thread, the steering column is well outboard of the inner tierod end. Otherwise you end up either with shorter steering travel, shorter and thus beefier knuckles and tierods, or clearance problems with the engine. This is ostensibly the reason E39 I6 cars moved to racks while the V8 stayed with a box.

    My hunch remains that notching the oilpan would be enough to fit the rack in the correct vertical position.

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    Perhaps historical inertia(I like that phrase) I shouldn't presume to speak for the intentions of the engineers.
    Seems to me that a rack is probably less expensive to manufacture as well, the reason MacPherson strut suspension is so popular.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    You're new here, I suggest you read my posts before suggesting I don't have enthusiasm for the e34 chassis, passion I reserve for women. I've owned and resurrected more E34s than can be found here on any given page.
    The car has recirculating ball for a reason, comfort, which is what the car was designed for. They are sedans, quite capable ones, but still (big, heavy) family sedans. Not race cars, not autobahn terrors. They perform their intended mission very, very well.
    I personally don't have issue with the steering feel. A properly refreshed steering and suspension might change your mind as well.
    Still want a rack in your E34? Stuff an E39 sub-frame under the car. Gotta be easier than re-engineering the entire front suspension geometry.
    Okay Dad.

    The e34 isn't that big or heavy by today's standards. ~120lbs heavier than a new M2? A few inches longer than my e46?

    It is no e30/miata on the track, but there is no reason to not look to improve the car. I am on coils, solid spherical UCAs and LCAs and all new lemforder steering linkage components and the steering is still the weakest aspect of the car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Racerhoze View Post
    Okay Dad.

    The e34 isn't that big or heavy by today's standards. ~120lbs heavier than a new M2? A few inches longer than my e46?

    It is no e30/miata on the track, but there is no reason to not look to improve the car. I am on coils, solid spherical UCAs and LCAs and all new lemforder steering linkage components and the steering is still the weakest aspect of the car.

    Well, young man, if this geezer were to pick the weakest point of these cars for track use it would be brakes, not steering. Brakes can be much improved without re-engineering the car and will improve lap times. Will a rack do that?
    Last edited by ross1; 02-06-2018 at 02:58 PM.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

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    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    Will a rack do that?
    To answer for the others, you're right, it won't. But it will improve the driving feel and the experience, which matters to most of us more than lap times.

    However, brake upgrade solutions already exist, with even more aggressive ones currently in the works. Steering upgrades simply don't exist. So any movement on this front is improvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dschneider View Post
    To answer for the others, you're right, it won't. But it will improve the driving feel and the experience, which matters to most of us more than lap times.

    However, brake upgrade solutions already exist, with even more aggressive ones currently in the works. Steering upgrades simply don't exist. So any movement on this front is improvement.
    +1 no reason to stymie attempts at innovation if someone wants to put hours into it.

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    Rossdad

    Interesting read so far.

    There have been multiple smart guys with proper engineering backgrounds that have looked at this, and the bottom line is that done properly, this is still a large and invasive job. We call ideas such as notching the oil pan (with associated oil capacity loss) an unacceptable and compromised solution: dry sump would be far superior in that you can control (ie, expand) oil capacity and cooling, and greatly increase clearance. Furthermore, just having clearance for the rack is one thing, but making a proper (fast) rack fit the existing geometry is a bit of a "reinventing the wheel" endeavor.

    With the launch of Angry Ass Solutions, rack-enthusiasts () have the best opportunity in years to pitch ideas like a rack conversion to a ready and willing engineer who is very versed in these cars.

    I suggest plying Greg with ideas, potential solutions, and a case for bringing this to market (like which engine to focus on, how geometry is affected/rectified, etc). We aren't interested in a haphazard oil pan notch and "forcing fitment"; proper clearancing, maintaining or improving suspension characteristics, and upgrading while-we're-in-there is the Angry Ass way.

    ----A note on steering box feel----

    I will say that a fresh steering box and full suspension on these cars leaves very little lacking in terms of steering feel; ratio could always be faster, but on most E34s, this albeit expensive proposition yields a sweet-steering 3500lb sedan:
    -Box refresh/source younger box ($500-1,000)
    -E31 bearing LCAs ($250-300)
    -Moosehead bearing UCAs ($300-400)
    -All new steering links (from bushing, to idler, down to tie rods) ($300-400)

    I did those^ things, but really felt improvement after these:
    -A dose of negative camber ($300-500)
    -E31 x-brace (suddenly $800+/NLA, we are developing an alternative)
    -17" or 18" wheels and performance-oriented tires (read; stiffer sidewalls)
    - Brent
    www.angry-ass.com

    Quote Originally Posted by danespann View Post
    Every E34 needs the same things in the end.

  8. #183
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    A change of pitman and idler arms or repositioning the tie rod end on the steering arm will make the steering faster too.

    So, if there really is a desire for R&P why hasn't(?) anyone used an entirely different sub-frame, E39 perhaps? Dimensions can't be that much different and all the geometry is done.
    Last edited by ross1; 02-08-2018 at 02:21 PM.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  9. #184
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    i have Rhd e46 rack thats flipped on my e28
    you need a shorter rack, bumpsteerspacers, and coilovers to get rid of bumbsteer =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by NitroE31 View Post
    i have Rhd e46 rack thats flipped on my e28
    you need a shorter rack, bumpsteerspacers, and coilovers to get rid of bumbsteer =)
    Tough to tell from the angle of your photo but is this as low as it appears? Seems your steering rack is the first thing in harms way
    Looks like some interesting transmission as well
    Last edited by ross1; 02-12-2018 at 11:29 AM.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  11. #186
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    the car is low yes =)
    the transmission is a s6s420g with a welded m30 bell housing

    Last edited by NitroE31; 02-12-2018 at 12:12 PM.

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by NitroE31 View Post
    i have Rhd e46 rack thats flipped on my e28
    you need a shorter rack, bumpsteerspacers, and coilovers to get rid of bumbsteer =)
    do you have a write up on this? I’m sure members here would be interested

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    Are the racks for sale yet?

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    I fixed everything in this thread. Even got a brand new steering box.

    Turns out the shimmy is somewhere in the steering column. FML.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BleedsBlue View Post
    Rossdad

    Interesting read so far.

    There have been multiple smart guys with proper engineering backgrounds that have looked at this, and the bottom line is that done properly, this is still a large and invasive job. We call ideas such as notching the oil pan (with associated oil capacity loss) an unacceptable and compromised solution: dry sump would be far superior in that you can control (ie, expand) oil capacity and cooling, and greatly increase clearance. Furthermore, just having clearance for the rack is one thing, but making a proper (fast) rack fit the existing geometry is a bit of a "reinventing the wheel" endeavor.

    With the launch of Angry Ass Solutions, rack-enthusiasts () have the best opportunity in years to pitch ideas like a rack conversion to a ready and willing engineer who is very versed in these cars.

    I suggest plying Greg with ideas, potential solutions, and a case for bringing this to market (like which engine to focus on, how geometry is affected/rectified, etc). We aren't interested in a haphazard oil pan notch and "forcing fitment"; proper clearancing, maintaining or improving suspension characteristics, and upgrading while-we're-in-there is the Angry Ass way.

    ----A note on steering box feel----

    I will say that a fresh steering box and full suspension on these cars leaves very little lacking in terms of steering feel; ratio could always be faster, but on most E34s, this albeit expensive proposition yields a sweet-steering 3500lb sedan:
    -Box refresh/source younger box ($500-1,000)
    -E31 bearing LCAs ($250-300)
    -Moosehead bearing UCAs ($300-400)
    -All new steering links (from bushing, to idler, down to tie rods) ($300-400)

    I did those^ things, but really felt improvement after these:
    -A dose of negative camber ($300-500)
    -E31 x-brace (suddenly $800+/NLA, we are developing an alternative)
    -17" or 18" wheels and performance-oriented tires (read; stiffer sidewalls)
    Would it be possible to make that kit fit the e31 as it also has the brace?

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard121 View Post
    Are the racks for sale yet?
    I did not think there was a plan to take these to market?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatandre View Post
    Would it be possible to make that kit fit the e31 as it also has the brace?
    We do not have a kit, and as said^ I did not think anyone in this thread was selling a kit (yet).

    Quote Originally Posted by tantumaude View Post
    I fixed everything in this thread. Even got a brand new steering box.

    Turns out the shimmy is somewhere in the steering column. FML.
    Ouch- that's uncommon! But once you fix that, you will enjoy the E34 as it's meant to be
    - Brent
    www.angry-ass.com

    Quote Originally Posted by danespann View Post
    Every E34 needs the same things in the end.

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by tantumaude View Post
    I fixed everything in this thread. Even got a brand new steering box.

    Turns out the shimmy is somewhere in the steering column. FML.
    Did you check the big nut in the steering column? It's uncommon but I've seen reference to that being loose. It's in the footwell down towards the firewall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddycooper View Post
    Did you check the big nut in the steering column? It's uncommon but I've seen reference to that being loose. It's in the footwell down towards the firewall.
    I did, it's tight. The play is in the splines where the two sections telescope into and out of each other. Moving it doesn't make a difference either. I wonder if it's a casting error or if something might've happened.

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    But there will be a kit?

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatandre View Post
    But there will be a kit?
    Honestly, for everyone wondering, best just hope for a comprehensive writeup for an easy-to-do rack conversion.

    Could be me who does it first, who knows. Just don't have the space or time right now, but planning on it soon.

  21. #196
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    heres a build thread on my steering rack conversion on my e28

    http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?f...9886&start=100

  22. #197
    moroza's Avatar
    moroza is offline MORΩN ΛABIA BMW CCA Member
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    It looks like you flipped the tierod ends upside down in the knuckles, but it's unclear if that was enough to fix bumpsteer, because your coilovers are too stiff?

    You used longer swaybar links, but I wonder if there was enough room to use shorter ones instead?
    Last edited by moroza; 08-10-2018 at 06:28 PM.

  23. #198
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    Erm... I'm probably late with this, but I did a rack conversion, that accounts for bump steer and ackerman too
    Is anyone interested or is this a dead thread?
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    What you got?

    I'm sure if you post up a viable solution with some pics, there will be interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by szacsi72 View Post
    Erm... I'm probably late with this, but I did a rack conversion, that accounts for bump steer and ackerman too
    Is anyone interested or is this a dead thread?
    Certainly there will be interest. I think a new thread would serve better.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

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