Siemens MS41.x chip types/models

**NickG** · 03-04-2004, 07:06 PM

Since it was brought up in another thread, I thought I would make a thread giving some info on the eprom used in the Siemens MS41.x ECU.

First some background.........

The 'chip' is a storage device. In a storage array contained within, it has the control code for the ECU's CPU, along with the calibration data (commonly referred to as the 'maps'). The 'chip' not only contains the storage array (which is programmable), but also has logic that is hard coded that handles the read and write functions of the chip. (I put that in bold because it is very important later on.)

To program the chip, a certain command sequence has to be sent in order to put the chip in the 'program' mode. Then, a specific programming algorithm has to be followed to program the chip. This write (and read) functionality has to follow the protocol that is contained in the chip's hard coded logic.

Makes sense so far, right?

The original chip used by Siemens is a 28F200. That chip is no longer made. It is VERY hard to find in small quantities. The commonly used replacement is a 29F200. But the 29F200 is not 100% functionally equivalent to the 28F200. Why?

Because the 29F200's programming algorithm is different than the 28F200's programming algorithm. This means that the 29F200, if used in an MS41.x ECU, cannot be serially reprogrammed. It is not compatible with the CPU's programming algorithm. Hence, it is the wrong chip for the MS41.x ECU.

So why do people need to know this?

Some tuners that reprogram the MS41.x ECU install a socket in the ECU to make it more like an OBD1 unit (ie, swappable chips and reprogram the chip in a conventional chip burner). Since the original 28F200 is no longer made (and hard to find to purchase a feasible quantity), these tuners instead use a 29F200 (readily made). For their purposes it works (since they don't serially reflash the ECU).

But for the ECU owner this could spell trouble in the future. This trouble is in the form of not being able to serially reprogram the ECU. The only way to reprogram these ECUs is to physically remove the chip and use a conventional chip burner.

If you lose your original 28F200 chip, good luck finding another one

Hope this helps,

**marc1119** · 03-04-2004, 07:32 PM

How is a tuner SCREWING up an ECU installing the only chip you can buy, the 29F200 chip? You know it yourself , that the 28F200 chip has not been available for a long time. If a tuner can facilitate having NO DOWN TIME by sending a chip , while driving your car, with updates and changes performed, what is wrong with that?
The problem is YOU do not have the equiptment to burn a chip. You have the equiptment to FLASH the whole ECU.So does that make it that tuners are using the wrong chip or you do not have the right equiptment?

Why does JimC have a chip burner and you do not. Why does JimC need a chip burner if these chip that require it are so WRONG?You know there is no option to get a 28F200 chip anywhere and you know I tried, so that makes it wrong if you do not have one.

Why are you so interested in bringing up this debacle with my programming after you telling me my RMS chips were no good to program over when in all actuality you could not program them because of "lack of the correct equiptment", but why could JImC?

You guys accuse RMS of using incorrect S/w when you damn well know it is the only chip available for a removable chip.
How whack is that?
Hey Nick, if you were to use a removable chip, what would you use that is different than what RMS used?
I like a removable chip and OSH did EXACTLY what you would have done, so please have JIMC stop being so hypocritical.

C'mon guys the crap is getting DEEP.

**Number9** · 03-04-2004, 07:41 PM

Good info Nick. (BTW, Marco, the initial post isn't particularly inflammatory on its own, so I can only presume you have some prior issue with Nick. How about we keep the emotional baggage out of this and stick to information exchange.)

Anyway, so may we infer that with the newer EEPROM(?) one can no longer reprogram the ECU in situ and further that most dealers won't be able to reprogram the ECU at all?

**marc1119** · 03-04-2004, 07:49 PM

How many people still serial port program their cars other than "shark injectors"?. Why would you be in "trouble" without being able to serial program your car unless JimC was gonna sell you one.
I may be in the minority but mostly everyone I know gets chips sent to them for reprograms. Your car is not down waiting for the chip to arrive,you do not have to ship your computer across the country most of the time, and the chips are cheap and can be changed often. What is the problem with that? Except not letting tuners and freight companies make a billion dollars shipping and reprogramming by "flashing".
I hope I am not in BIG TROUBLE because I do not have my 28F200 chip anymore.
I wonder if OSH had a big conspiracy as to corner the market on 28F200 chips by removing them from all of his customers computers and replacing them with the widely used, cheap 29F200 chip, and screwing all of his customers by no longer being able to get a flash, which means since NIck can only flash and JIMC sells 'Shark injectors", I am out of luck giving them any of my hard earned money. Yeah thats it, Osh screwed all of his customers doing that. Right.

**marc1119** · 03-04-2004, 07:52 PM

Number9, this whole post was started because JIMC made some inaccurate statements and Nick G was a part of them. This post was started as to minimize any damage that could be brought up from a particular event that included me.
Inaccuracies were stated and I am setting the record straight, if you do not like it, don't read it.

**paul e** · 03-04-2004, 07:54 PM

>>But for the ECU owner this could spell trouble in the future. This trouble is in the form of not being able to serially reprogram the ECU. The only way to reprogram these ECUs is to physically remove the chip and use a conventional chip burner<<

Why does this cause problmes for the owner? Here are a couple Ive thought of... What if the owner accidentaly, when swapping ecus, manages to somehow corrupt his and goes to the dealer for an OE flash.. Thats a NO GO.. What about if an owner decides its time for him to finally get that 911 hes always craved, but in order to afford it, he needs to revert back to stock to sell his unit.. After hes put back all the oe parts, the last step is to go to the dealer for an OE reflash. From whats written in Nick's post, hes simply SOL on this one.

Last but not least, as weve seen , people like to try new tuning. its human nature. Once youve gone the socketed route ,usually accompanied by encryption board, for you to use a new tuner means youve got to buy a new ECU.

Just a few things to consider. In programming, theres a well known saying: 'Stay Vanilla', or 'Stay away from the edges'.. Programmers know well what it means, but it this case, all it means is change as little as possible and youre better off, just as a rule of thumb.

**marc1119** · 03-04-2004, 07:58 PM

Those are a couple of weak reasons, in my opinion.Most guys with a chip, have modified their cars.They are not going back to stock. If they corrupt their programming, they can call the programmer and for a $2 chip and $5 UPS charge, a new chip could be burned on the burner and sent right away.

**paul e** · 03-04-2004, 08:00 PM

whatever

**marc1119** · 03-04-2004, 08:03 PM

Exactly, whatever.

**NickG** · 03-04-2004, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Number9
Anyway, so may we infer that with the newer EEPROM(?) one can no longer reprogram the ECU in situ and further that most dealers won't be able to reprogram the ECU at all?

That is exactly correct. Nobody (not even the dealer's tools) will be able to reprogram the ECU if the wrong chip is installed.

Marco, I honestly don't know why you have such hostility towards me. I did everything in my power to help you out (including answering your phone call at 11:15PM when we first met), and was nothing but cordial and honest with you throughout the entire process. If you had an issue with ANYTHING I said or did, you were more than welcome to call me up and discuss it.

You have to admit that everything I said in my post above is nothing but factual. If you feel I've said something in error, you're more than welcome to correct it (with facts, not opinion). But I feel I don't deserve the mudslinging that you're dishing out.

**marc1119** · 03-04-2004, 08:29 PM

Nick, the "mudslinging" as you call it, is really intended toward JIMC. You and I both know what he stated about helping me in that other post was "pure crap". He did not even know who I was until I thanked him for burning that chip for me in an e-mail I responded to of his today.
I have zero hostility toward you Nick. I do not like how one of your group and then another of the "the group" chime in to protect each other from healthy debate.
There are private dealings going on and secret this and secret that and "group members" get protected , but warnings go out to those who stand alone offering spirited debate.It is wrong.

I cannot say half of what I want because of bickering that comes of it from "your cronies",(please do not be offended) and you know who I mean.

You are an honest, talented tuner who I solicited for some help.JIMC put a spin on it that you know is wrong. You cannot admit that because of your relationship with him. But he is not going to make me look like I slighted him after helping me because He does not know he helped me. He helped YOU who could not provide the final service at hand. Do not get me wrong I appreciated it and I told him so. That does not mean I have to agree with how he feels about HIMSELF.

Last thing Nick, you keep refeering to it as "the wrong chip to install". Is there a right chip? It does not exist, I tried to buy 100 of them from any source my brother could find, and they simply do not exist.
What does someone then do?

**NickG** · 03-04-2004, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by marc1119
Last thing Nick, you keep refeering to it as "the wrong chip to install". Is there a right chip? It does not exist, I tried to buy 100 of them from any source my brother could find, and they simply do not exist.
What does someone then do?

Technically, the 29F200 is the wrong chip since it is not 100% functionally equivalent to the 28F200. You just can't argue with that.

The 28F200 DOES exist in stockpiles in warehouses around the world, it just is no longer made. If you really want to buy 100 chips, then you can probably find a broker willing to sell that amount (I have already, but there's no reason for me to buy 100 chips).

I want to keep this thread on the technical side, so I'll respond to the rest of your post privately.

**stimpee** · 03-04-2004, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by paul e
>>But for the ECU owner this could spell trouble in the future. This trouble is in the form of not being able to serially reprogram the ECU. The only way to reprogram these ECUs is to physically remove the chip and use a conventional chip burner<<

Why does this cause problmes for the owner? Here are a couple Ive thought of... What if the owner accidentaly, when swapping ecus, manages to somehow corrupt his and goes to the dealer for an OE flash.. Thats a NO GO.. What about if an owner decides its time for him to finally get that 911 hes always craved, but in order to afford it, he needs to revert back to stock to sell his unit.. After hes put back all the oe parts, the last step is to go to the dealer for an OE reflash. From whats written in Nick's post, hes simply SOL on this one.

Last but not least, as weve seen , people like to try new tuning. its human nature. Once youve gone the socketed route ,usually accompanied by encryption board, for you to use a new tuner means youve got to buy a new ECU.

Just a few things to consider. In programming, theres a well known saying: 'Stay Vanilla', or 'Stay away from the edges'.. Programmers know well what it means, but it this case, all it means is change as little as possible and youre better off, just as a rule of thumb.

Simple solution to this, assuming you are one of the people that has one of these "incorrect" chips in your car:

KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL CHIP that was desoldered from the board and replace it!

Done.

**Jim Conforti** · 03-04-2004, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by marc1119
How is a tuner SCREWING up an ECU installing the only chip you can buy, the 29F200 chip?

Marco,

Explain to me WHY you'd REPLACE a reprogrammable chip?

The only reasons are:

1) The original was damaged during removal

2) The originals are being collected because they are hard to
find (not impossible).

BTW, since you feel the need to be an ungrateful a**clown,
let me answer your question.

I have a burner that does all these chips, well beyond ANYTHING
used in vehicles, because I do a lot of other research that a
"tuner" won't be doing. Examples: obscure BIOS chips, etc.

JC

PS: "Put a SPIN" on it.. no, someone replaced the proper chip
with an improper one. You didn't need to have the chip REPLACED
at all.. someone could have read out original contents and then
reprogrammed it. Or they could have taken the time to source the
right chip. They didn't.. I took the time to help YOU and now this
is what I get. a**clown of the first order.

PPS: the other think "Marco" fails to tell you is that this chip was
originally sent to me over Valentines weekend. I'm sorry, but
Mrs. Conforti comes before your chip. Nothwithstanding the fact
that there was no real urgency.

**Jim Conforti** · 03-04-2004, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by stimpee
Simple solution to this, assuming you are one of the people that has one of these "incorrect" chips in your car:

KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL CHIP that was desoldered from the board and replace it!

Done.

Yes, even simpler.. just reprogram the original chip and drop
it back into the socket you've put on the board. Done.

It takes a few seconds to read out the original contents and
save it on a disk.

**Jim Conforti** · 03-04-2004, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by marc1119
Last thing Nick, you keep refeering to it as "the wrong chip to install". Is there a right chip? It does not exist, I tried to buy 100 of them from any source my brother could find, and they simply do not exist.
What does someone then do?

I'm not Nick.. but your search was less than thorough.

Try usbid.com for starters.

Or any one of 100+ chip "brokers".

The point you conveniently ignore is that there was no reason
to replace the chip in the first place.. ITS FLASH MEMORY, you
ERASE it.. and REPROGRAM it. It's sort of the whole POINT of
Flash EEPROM.

Either IN the ECU (serially) or out of the ECU in a programmer.

With the prevalence of flash memory reprogrammers out there,
there is no reason to solder chips.

Even if you DO solder chips, there is no reason to REPLACE the
chip with one that is incompatible with the algorithms in the ECU.

Your logic is interesting though, if you remove a good 20 amp
fuse from a panel.. and cannot find another good 20 amp fuse,
replacement with a 30 amp fuse is acceptable.

Completely ridiculous but interesting.

**///3oris** · 03-05-2004, 12:01 AM

Marco, here's a reason for why you keep the stock ECU. This is from personal experience. When I bought my AA SC, I sent the ECU to AA and they removed my original chip replacing it with a scrambler board and their software. (I don't know anything about part numbers or anything else as I never opened the box, so don't ask).

Now, it's obvious that I paid for this "service" as part of my SC kit, correct? Well... personally I would have loved to have my stock chip as well as the programming and scrambler board that I got (and paid for with my purchase of the SC).

Anyway... to make a long story short, after my chip was removed and I decided to go back to stock I had to return my ECU to the tuner, PAY for it to be removed and my stock chip be put back in (keep in mind, I could have done this myself easily)... and not only that, but I now LOST the scrambler board and the tuning which I got with my SC system... because when they remove it, they never send it back to you (why would they? it costs them money).

But on top of that, I had to pay for them to install MY STUFF (which was removed from my already paid ECU) on the buyers car. Talk about double charging? I know to some people money isn't as important; they can just email a tuner and say "hey, send me another chip, charge it to the 'company card'" and be done with it. Not so with me.

So here's ONE scenerio in which I wish I never lost my original chip. Not because of any technical mambo jambo, but because at the end it ended up costing ME $$$!

Just something to chew on.

Boris

**buldogge** · 03-05-2004, 10:34 AM

If you all stop acting like children you might recognize that EACH OF YOU has valid points.

A reprogrammable chip is a NICE thing...BUT...sans 28F200 chips, shipping your ECU all over hell and creation sucks. How bout we get some 28F200 chips and kill two birds...

JimC...If we have some 28F200 chips...will you do some NICE programming for our Vortech set-ups???

There is nothing wrong with with substituting to the 29F200 IF (1) you keep your original chip (check one for Mark) and (2) Have an intial 29F200 burned with your "stock" program (check again for me) Sure, there will be no dealer flashing from that point forward on the "stock" 29F200...but...unless we're dealing with really new car the software should be set.

Let's play nice...I just want my car to run the best it can!

TIA

**Shawn Fogg** · 03-05-2004, 11:26 AM

"A reprogrammable chip is a NICE thing...BUT...sans 28F200 chips, shipping your ECU all over hell and creation sucks."

Which is what Jim's upcoming *free* utility is going to take care of for everyone.

Or at least those that have the proper chip in their car.

Shawn

**buldogge** · 03-05-2004, 11:37 AM

DME editor sounds great...BUT...you still need to dyno AND you need a competent tuner (if you're not capable yourself...such as you are Shawn).

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Jim state that there would be a charge each time you "use" the editor...kinda like subscription factory programs for repair shops?

???

**Shawn Fogg** · 03-05-2004, 11:56 AM

Mark,

I'm not talking about the DME editor. Jim is also releasing a utility that will download the contents of your DME into a file. You could then send that to a tuner who would change it and send it back to you. You could upload that back into your DME. But only if you have the stock chip.

" Also, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Jim state that there would be a charge each time you "use" the editor"

No, I think what he said is there would be a charge to enable the editor to work on a new VIN... IOW a different vehicle. I assume once it is bought and paid for for your car you can use it on that one car as much as you want.

Shawn

**///3oris** · 03-05-2004, 12:27 PM

Mark, good point, but like Jim said:

"With the prevalence of flash memory reprogrammers out there,
there is no reason to solder chips.

Even if you DO solder chips, there is no reason to REPLACE the
chip with one that is incompatible with the algorithms in the ECU."

It's a good point, that if you want the option of burned chips mailed to you all the time, that it's great, I think the problem is that the tuners who do this HOLD ON to your stock chip.

In fact, in my experience posted above, I didn't get my chip soldered back into my ECU, it was someone elses; the software was different. I'm actually now curious whether I have the correct CHIP or not... I will check on this... if my dealer can't flash it back to stock I'll be pissed.

Boris

**bimmerpwr** · 03-05-2004, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Shawn Fogg
Mark,

I'm not talking about the DME editor. Jim is also releasing a utility that will download the contents of your DME into a file. You could then send that to a tuner who would change it and send it back to you. You could upload that back into your DME. But only if you have the stock chip.

" Also, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Jim state that there would be a charge each time you "use" the editor"

No, I think what he said is there would be a charge to enable the editor to work on a new VIN... IOW a different vehicle. I assume once it is bought and paid for for your car you can use it on that one car as much as you want.

Shawn

With little understanding of this...
So the new DME editor will not work on most cars done by RMS and AA? If so, that's a huge chunk of piece out of all FIed BMWs out there, a lot of potential customers?

So if what I am reading is correct, eventually only one part of FIed BMW crowd will get to use this utility. Unless these vendors start putting stock chips back in their cutomers' cars...

Lastly, is it a technical difficulty to make the DME utility compatible with both chips? If so, how much more diffcult is it from where it stands now before the production?

If it is not *so much* of technical difficulty, wouldn't more of FIed BMW crowd benefit from a utility that is competible with both chips?

hmmm...

**M3TurboCa** · 03-05-2004, 01:05 PM

Once the stock chips is replaced you have to burn the changes with a special chip loader.

There is no reason why Jim C software cant mod the file itself. Its just you cant load it serially.

You need a programmer that can burn tsop/psop chips after.

**Jim Conforti** · 03-05-2004, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Shawn Fogg
"A reprogrammable chip is a NICE thing...BUT...sans 28F200 chips, shipping your ECU all over hell and creation sucks."

Which is what Jim's upcoming *free* utility is going to take care of for everyone.

Or at least those that have the proper chip in their car.

Shawn

Yes, that is correct..

BTW, I know you know it. but:

Proper == What came in it from Siemens/BMW

(not)

Proper == What Jim thinks

Given a reason, someone could likely rewrite the flashing algorithms in the chip to WORK with a 29F200 quite transparently.

Why this wasn't/isn't done is beyond me.

JC

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