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Thread: CES Motorsport Cut Ring Head Gasket / Copper spacer combo install guide

  1. #26
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    Bump! A few unanswered questions as i read. The thread was going good then died. Is there another 2014-15 updated thread that i could be referred to? Having a Cut Ring/Copper spacer done soon and want to do my homework. Thanks
    Its interesting to see how corrosive some Non BMW coolant can be on aluminum cylinder heads.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FISEVEN View Post
    Bump! A few unanswered questions as i read. The thread was going good then died. Is there another 2014-15 updated thread that i could be referred to? Having a Cut Ring/Copper spacer done soon and want to do my homework. Thanks
    What's your questions ? I don't think there's much to add to this thread

  3. #28
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    Can the gasket be used without the copper spacer if one doesn't wish to lower compression?

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rajicase View Post
    Can the gasket be used without the copper spacer if one doesn't wish to lower compression?
    Of course.
    1996 332IS
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  5. #30
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    Many of us with built low compression motors run just the cut ring and no spacer, as do many of those running E85 who don't need to lower CR to run high boost.

  6. #31
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    Ive got so much to learn before I make the plunge into FI lol

    Thanks guys

  7. #32
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    Subscribing

  8. #33
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    I plan on doing the 35lbs 65lbs 85lbs as OP described. They recommend a heat cycle then a final torque check. Is it then necessary to torque check after 500 miles as some have recommended?
    Its interesting to see how corrosive some Non BMW coolant can be on aluminum cylinder heads.

  9. #34
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    Careful with the cut ring and 87mm. Very very close tolerance. 86.5mm is the max I would run on cutring

  10. #35
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    When using the copper spacer plate with the "cut rings"
    do the cut rings sit on top of the copper plate?
    or
    are the bore holes opened up so the rings sit on the block?

  11. #36
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    They sit on the spacer.

  12. #37
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    Ta

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyyardie View Post
    Careful with the cut ring and 87mm. Very very close tolerance. 86.5mm is the max I would run on cutring
    You can use an 87 mm cut ring hg on an 87mm bore motor with no issues. That what it was designed for and is slightly larger than exactly 87mm for that reason. The tolerances will be a problem only if you bore over 87mm... We do recommend installing the hg with the engine on an engine stand with the block sitting straight up to make the install easier with less chance of the rings moving out of place, but I know this is not an option for some diy'ers. Just have to be extra careful if done while the motor is in the car so the rings do not move out of place when the head is installed.

    There are 3 sizes for the cutring gaskets. 85mm, 86mm, and 87mm. There is no 86.4mm bore cutring gasket. A few customers have tried to use the 86mm bore cutring gasket on an s52 motor with an 86.4mm bore, and have run into issues with clearance. This is why we only use the 86mm bore sized cutring gasket with the spacer we offer, which raises the cut ring away from the piston enough so there is no chance it would touch. The spacer we offer is 86.4mm bore size to allow use on both the S50 and S52 motor. We pair the 86mm gasket with the 86.4mm copper spacer to allow use of the thicker 86mm bore cutring for better sealing. That is why it is only sold with the copper spacer as a combo. For someone with a stock s50 or s52 wanting to upgrade their oem gasket to the cut ring by itself without the spacer, the 87mm cut ring is always used just to make sure there are no issues with clearance. The cut ring hg is .079" thickness as opposed to the oem of .070" which also allows for extra clearances due to the head being redecked more than one or twice...

    The cut ring does sit on the copper spacer, which is why you get such a tremendous seal once the head goes down and compresses everything. It is also why we recommend doing the torque procedure over a 3 day period allowing the gasket combo to settle in at each stage so there will be minimal to no movement once the final sequence is done.

    The 500 mile retorque is a good idea with the combo hg since it is twice as thick as oem. We have had these gasket combos hold regardless of doing this, but it is an extra precaution we recommend just in case.

    The last update we would add for this, would be to break each stud loose one at a time, and then bring back up to 65# again, after the second torque sequence at 65# is done on day two. This releases any air pockets compressing the lube that could cause the stud to loosen after heat cycles and driving... Then on day three for 85#, the studs should settle in solid and your ready to go

    The CES Motorsport Team
    Last edited by jgcm3; 08-10-2016 at 12:13 PM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgcm3 View Post
    You can use an 87 mm cut ring hg on an 87mm bore motor with no issues. That what it was designed for and is slightly larger than exactly 87mm for that reason. The tolerances will be too close if you bore over 87mm... We do recommend installing the hg with the engine on an engine stand with the block sitting straight up to make the install easier with less chance of the rings moving out of place, but I know this is not an option for some diy'ers. Just have to be extra careful if done while the motor is in the car.

    The 86.4mm bore cut ring cannot be used by itself however since it was designed to be used only with the copper spacer to lower compression on a stock motor. We have had a few customers try it by itself on a stock motor and have run into tolerance issues unless the rings are set absolutely perfect... This is why we only use it with the spacer, which raises the cut ring away from the piston enough so there is no chance it would touch. For someone with a stock motor with stock bore wanting to upgrade their oem gasket to the cut ring, the 87mm cut ring is used. The cut ring hg is .078" thickness as opposed to the oem of .070" which also allows for extra clearances due to the head being redecked more than one or twice...

    The cut ring does sit on the copper spacer, which is why you get such a tremendous seal once the head goes down and compresses everything. It is also why we recommend doing the torque procedure over a 3 day period allowing the gasket combo to settle in at each stage so there will be minimal to no movement once the final sequence is done.

    The 500 mile retorque is a good idea with the combo hg since it is twice as thick as oem. We have had these gasket combos hold regardless of doing this, but it is an extra precaution we recommend just in case.

    The last update we would add for this, would be to break each stud loose one at a time, and then bring back up to 65# again, after the second torque sequence at 65# is done on day two. This releases any air pockets compressing the lube that could cause the stud to loosen after heat cycles and driving... Then on day three for 85#, the studs should settle in solid and your ready to go

    The CES Motorsport Team
    I have the gasket with part number bm1005-079

    I am about to put it on an s50 without a copper spacer. This is the one I want that can be used without the spacer correct? Just want to confirm as I got concerned after reading this post....

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by liilpa09 View Post
    I have the gasket with part number bm1005-079

    I am about to put it on an s50 without a copper spacer. This is the one I want that can be used without the spacer correct? Just want to confirm as I got concerned after reading this post....
    You would need the 1006 part number. The 1005 is used with the copper spacer. The tolerances on the 1005 are very tight. If the ring moves even slightly it could touch the piston if used by itself.

  16. #41
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    There is some excellent information in here, thanks CES!

  17. #42
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    Wanted to add some more info to clarify about the different cut ring sizes.... And what can be used by itself, versus only with the copper spacer.

    Both the m50/52 84-85mm bore and s50/52 86.4-87mm bore gaskets have the clearances built in to run on motors up to the bore size listed. That's what the rings were designed for. The ring is actually a tad larger than the listed size with enough tolerance to clear even an 85mm or 87mm bore motor with no issue when used by itself with no copper spacer.*

    The s52 stock bore 86.4mm*cutring*is the only cut ring that cannot be used by itself. It does not have the extra tolerance needed to be used by itself. Its dead set at the exact bore and why we do not use it by itself due to the risk of the ring moving just a hair and then touching a piston. That's why we only sell either the 85mm bore or 87mm bore cutring gaskets when used by themselves.

    The 86.4 bore gasket was designed to work only with the copper spacer to allow use of a thicker cutring to seal up as much as possible when lowering compression on a stock s50/52 motor. The spacer gives the extra clearance for the ring not touch the piston since the ring sits on the spacer and is also why this combo makes such a tremendous seal. This is the Only gasket that could touch a piston if used by itself.

    For those customers who have built and overbore motors that were built with stock compression pistons, we also offer the correct sized Copper spacers to go with either the 85mm or 87mm bore motors to lower the compression without having to rebuild the motor with low compression pistons.

    Lastly.... We have just released this combo for the s54 e46 m3 motors with the cut ring and copper spacer to lower compression just like we do with for the e36. Now customers can use the same headgasket combo kits we have used successfully for years on their e46 m3 if they would like to lower compression of their s54 motor without having to swap to lower compression pistons or use an mls prone to failure... We will be posting more info about this product soon!

    The CES Motorsport Team

  18. #43
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    Can the cutring combo be reused if you have to remove head?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anybody have experience with that? I believe I have blown piston rings.

  19. #44
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    UPDATED INFO 3-12-18

    We have been seeing some issues lately after ARP released their new 75 lb max torque spec for the BMW E36 ARP 2000 Head studs. We have had customers using the cutring gasket or cutring gasket combo experience some seepage issues of coolant when torquing only to 75lbs versus the old 85 lb standard that ARP had for these studs for so many years. We have torqued the studs to 85lbs for so long we cannot remember with no issues of this nature. Only when the new lower torque specs were released by ARP, did we start seeing some issues here and there of people seeing coolant seepage. ARP claims their newly updated measuring equipment is more accurate, and thus instated the new torque spec, but it is our recommendation that the old torque spec be used. The stud design has not changed, nor has the ultra torque lube being used, so using the old 85lb spec ARP used to recommend is what we still recommend now. Customers who have torqued their heads down back to 85lbs have seen an immediate fix to the seepage issue. Hope this info is helpful.

    The CES MOTORSPORT Team

  20. #45
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    Thanks for the update!

    Having done some tests with torque-measuring equipment myself (with the help of FI forum member Scott Shepard) and finding that in some cases, a fastener can be rotated another 900 degrees (!!) before failure, I would not give tightening an additional ten (10) Lbs-Ft on one of those 10mm studs a second thought.

  21. #46
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    Will part number bm1005-79 gaskit with spacer fit my s52

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onerser View Post
    Will part number bm1005-79 gaskit with spacer fit my s52
    What business is referencing that part number?

  23. #48
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    Such a good... write up...

    Was very helpful when did completed my cutrin install...

    Thanks..

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  24. #49
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    Thank you for the nice write up! Really appreciate it.

  25. #50
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    So I got a rebuilt b28 with 84.5 wiseco dished pistons and the spacer plus cut ring gasket which got me at a 6.28:1 compression ratio... is this even possible? If you guys could help me figure whether I should run the spacer or not let me know.

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