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Thread: Tech talk: Why 2v heads need more advance than 4v heads.

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    I've tuned and helped tune about a dozen or more M50-based motors on standalones. I am not going by just my own engine here. An M20 requires more timing than M50 to do the same work. Fact.
    Agreed 100%,no argue here.Also agree that M30 may require close to double the timing of the M50 at times(of course those are all approximations).M20 is a different beast and not that far behind M50.

    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    .........
    Also the head and the piston are shaped in a way to "move" the chamber close to the spark plug.The furthest end has almost no volume in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    . ..........It doesn't much matter whether it has significant volume or not - we're talking about a compressed combustible mixture - it still takes time for the flame front to engulf the entire combustion chamber on the off-set 2v motors...........
    !
    However the milestone of the small- six engines was yet to come: the 325i unit (325is in the states). This head (casting number 1705885) has large U-shaped ports (about 37mm by 37mm) and a slightly larger combustion chamber volume of 40cc but follows a new combustion chamber philosophy. Several studies have shown that an open chamber design (basically spherical in shape) has a faster burn rate (desirable in terms of avoiding detonation and good for efficiency) than either a classical hemi chamber (such as that used on tha Alfa V-6) or a Heron chamber(bowl in piston such as that used in VW Golfs/Rabbits). On the 1705885 head there is a dish in the piston within a dome! This is hard to explain unless it has been seen. Basically BMW engineers probably reasoned out that it would not be possible to move the spark plugs to a more central position (desirable in terms on thermodynamic efficiency) and keep the cylinder configuration the same so they moved the bulk of the chamber volume around the spark plug (which consisted of the offset dish in the piston and the hemi in the head) all the rest became squish zones. This is an outstandingly efficient package. The stroke was made shorter than the old 323i while the con rods were lengthened to increase rod to stroke ratio to reduce friction/increase top end poke. The compression ratio was 9.7:1 and 8.8:1 for the US market/later European spec. The lobe centerline angle of the camshaft was reduced again to 108 degrees but so was the duration. The late Eta used the large port "885 head (often called the 'supereta'). I have no knowledge on what kind of piston or cam timing that has been used.

    (copied from that site- http://e21.tricord.be/e21/about/m20/cylinder-heads.php )

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    bore diamater = more advance required.

    the M30 advance numbers are in no way comparable to M50īs and M20īs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    Was talking to a buddy the other day about timing figures (he has a supercharged LS1). We were just bouncing timing values off of one another and, as can be predicted, he was saying he runs around 20 - 25 degrees of advance where we run 14 - 16 degrees of advance (considering other factors moot). We both agreed it's due to the combustion chamber efficiency mostly but I couldn't think of a good way to visualize why. I was browsing through other images I have saved and found it - thought people might find it interesting and it might give some guys a visualization of why M20/M30 maps have so much more ignition advance compared to 4 valve motors.

    The goal is to time your ignition so that the flame propagates in time near the end of the compression stroke. The mixture takes some time to burn and produce the explosion, so too soon and you risk sparking the mixture while the crank is still coming up, and too late and you blow fire out of the exhaust manifolds.

    So why is it that a 2v head is "less efficient" than a 4v head? This image makes it clear:

    http://jonkensy.com/gallery/albums/u.../headspeed.JPG

    What this image is showing is not necessarily 2v vs 4v chambers. It's showing flame propagation based on spark plug location (which is driven by valve count and placement). So, for instance, the first row is degrees in crank angle after a spark in a head with an offset spark plug. You can see that 25 degrees of rotation after the initial spark and the flame has still not fully propagated.

    The second row shows more swirl in the chamber with the same offset plug position. Swirl is important on an indirect injection motor. The fuel is injected and vaporized ahead of the hot intake valve and is sucked in by the engine. Combustion chamber geometry can induce a swirling action by which the mixture is distributed more throughout the chamber. Swirling and port design can also increase the velocity by which the mixture is ingested. You can see that in the second row of images the flame has propagated more. The 3rd row induces more swirl and the flame is propagating faster yet. The first three rows represent an offset spark plug in a chamber.

    The 4th row is pertinent to all with a centralized plug. Granted, some combustion chambers in a 4v central plug motor are created more efficiently than others but this is a generalized explanation. You can see that the mixture lights up really fast compared to the off-center plug chamber.

    Finally, at the bottom, is a multi-plug motor. Some manufacturers choose to use a 2nd plug in a relatively "inefficient" head to maximize the ability to burn the fuel faster and complete. Porsche engines do this frequently. 2 plugs per cylinder have both advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is you can stagger plug fire with EFI solutions or vary plug fire sync throughout the powerband based on velocity through the chamber. Disadvantages are 2x the number of plugs, wires, etc. which generate more ignition noise and involve more maintenance.

    So the reason why a 4v motor might only want 20 degrees where a 2v motor might want 35 degrees is because the flame moves slower through the chamber in a 2v motor and that delta of 15 degrees (hypothetical figures used). So to time it such that the flame is at its most complete state at the end of the compression stroke the initial spark needs to occur that many degrees in advance.

    Just thought some one might find this visual explanation useful.
    A few things to keep in mind:

    -An engine is a system, and system level performance characteristics very seldom trace down to one variable

    -The M20/M50 is the only apples/apples comparison mentioned so far. Most M30's have a significantly larger bore (92mm) than the M50 (84-86.5) and the LS1's bore is the grand canyon by comparison (99mm to 101.6+). Also, only similar boost and fuel can get to the comparison you're trying to get to.

    -The LS1 chamber is extremely efficient. GM and BMW have pretty much the same design muscle in terms of CFD. The 2V *inline* valve chamber allows a very large fraction of the bore to be quench/squish, which increases mixture motion significantly. The offset intake valve also promotes good swirl.

    -BMW's offset canted valve 2V chamber is a mess compared to the LSx chambers. The high valve angles make the chamber deep and the cant makes it large so that it can't have good quench/squish. The minimal valve offset means it can't have good swirl either. These chambers need domed pistons to achieve high compression ratios, resulting in poor surface area to volume ratios.

    -The M50 chamber has a shallow valve angle and pent roof plug. The pent roof directs mixture toward the plug similar to quench/squish but with lower velocity. The entire perimeter of the bore is quench pad. The chamber isn't too deep and isn't too shallow. When viewed from the side, the plug is at the upper edge of the chamber, but the chamber's vertical dimension is reasonable.

    -The VW chambers mentioned above probably have poor surface area to volume ratio because they're flat. In the pics, they also appear not to have quench/squish pads on the intake side.

    -While there is a "sweet spot" for the fraction of the fuel that is vaporized in the port, it is possible vaporize too much and displace intake air. Every engine likes something a little different, but there are several variables in mixture quality: vapor fraction, droplet size, homogeneity, temperature, density, etc. It's very difficult to manipulate these variables when using port fuel injection without moving the injector from the stock location. It's surprisingly easy to manipulate mixture quality with carb mods, but the carb doesn't meter the fuel as precisely as EFI, either.

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    ^^^^ Now that is a tech talk

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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    ^^^^ Now that is a tech talk
    Why? because I didn't say it? He reiterated most of what I said.

    Sounds like you only have an issue when I say things. An M20 takes more advance than an M50. An M10 takes more advance than an M50. And M30 takes more advance than an M50. 2v heads take more advance than 4v heads - it's a fact and the first post outlines why.

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    ^^^But that is pointless,a fact that no one argue with.
    And you are claiming in your first posts that M20 and M30 are the same piece of $$h.t and need twice the timing M50 needs.
    Also when i wrote in my post that the spark plug is actually close to the top of the CC than in the middle you answered that there is no such thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    ^^^But that is pointless,a fact that no one argue with.
    And you are claiming in your first posts that M20 and M30 are the same piece of $$h.t and need twice the timing M50 needs.
    Also when i wrote in my post that the spark plug is actually close to the top of the CC than in the middle you answered that there is no such thing.


    I didn't call anything a POS.

    I think you need to focus more on what I said and less on what you think I said.

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    but but but but.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post


    I didn't call anything a POS.

    I think you need to focus more on what I said and less on what you think I said.
    Thank you for pointing out that english is not my native language.I did take my time to learn it fluently,and as I may have some 'glitches' here and there that is not the problem here.If you go back and reread the thread you will find that there is a big change in your claims from page 1 to page 3.
    As in the HPF threads you only comment on what helps your arguments,and just leave the 'uncomfortable' comments in the dust.
    As I wrote before I have respect for your knowledge and experience,but I dont like discussions where the main argument is "It is so because I said so...",so obviously I wont be participating such a debates anymore.
    Oh,my project is M20 because I like it,not because I cant afford M5X,M6X or S whatever.I can imagine someone having M50,but drooling over Supras,as an example, could be pretty stressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    Thank you for pointing out that english is not my native language.I did take my time to learn it fluently,and as I may have some 'glitches' here and there that is not the problem here.If you go back and reread the thread you will find that there is a big change in your claims from page 1 to page 3.
    As in the HPF threads you only comment on what helps your arguments,and just leave the 'uncomfortable' comments in the dust.
    As I wrote before I have respect for your knowledge and experience,but I dont like discussions where the main argument is "It is so because I said so...",so obviously I wont be participating such a debates anymore.
    Oh,my project is M20 because I like it,not because I cant afford M5X,M6X or S whatever.I can imagine someone having M50,but drooling over Supras,as an example, could be pretty stressed.
    LOL ok bud. Whatever you say. You're right. M20s... and M30s.... M50s... they're all the same.

    It isn't because I say so. It's because physics never sleeps. I don't know what else to tell you. If you don't want to believe it, then go run an M50 at 20 psi at 25 degrees. I don't care.
    Last edited by 5mall5nail5; 03-18-2012 at 12:16 AM.

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    keep shut a set of intake/exhaust valves on the m50 and see if it likes
    the same timing as an m20.

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    Top fuel will never switch to turbos. google is your friend
    " NHRA rule book says that for Top Fuel dragsters, the forced induction engine is restricted to Roots-type supercharger, rotor helix angle not to exceed that of standard 71-series GM-type rotor. Turbocharger and/or centrifugal supercharger are prohibited. "
    Last edited by dohcdoh; 03-18-2012 at 12:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by livinginexile5 View Post
    I don't believe he's advocating that they are all the same, I believe he's advocating that because you've never pushed an m20 to its limits that you don't necessarily have the right to say unilaterally that the m20/m30/m10 ALWAYS require twice the timing of the m50.

    That said you do have experience with the m50 and in YOUR m50 vs. your buddies m20 (we've all got a buddy who's got something) that had similar - albeit not identical setups, and it made power differently. That’s all fine and dandy but again I think you're missing the point that all engines make power.


    Additionally top fuel engines produce 1000+ HP per cylinder, or said another way 1000+HP per every 62.5 cubic inches, or 1000+hp per liter what other engine (using pistons and only 500 cubic inches) is in that league?


    I am in no way advocating that superchargers are more efficient or that turbo has less potential - I give it 5 years before top fuel makes the switch to turbo or turbo/supercharger hybrid engines.
    Bud. It's documented. I've built over 30 ECUs. It takes roughly 2x the timing in an M20 and M30 to do the same power figures, NA, than an M50. Its a fact. There's no arguing it. Go look at published ignition maps on E30tech or R3v. I've got experience tuning a dozen M50 based motors - maybe more. M30s. M20s. S38s. M60s. There's a CONSTANT trend. That's why it's physics. It's repeatable.

    Again what on gods green earth does a top fuel motor have to do with a 2 or 4v bmw motor discussion?

    Seriously sometimes I feel like people don't read, and just argue.
    Last edited by 5mall5nail5; 03-18-2012 at 12:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    LOL ok bud. Whatever you say. You're right. M20s... and M30s.... M50s... they're all the same.

    It isn't because I say so. It's because physics never sleeps. I don't know what else to tell you. If you don't want to believe it, then go run an M50 at 20 psi at 25 degrees. I don't care.
    I dont think you can make that timing even on M20,but it may be up for some great numbers,briefly I am not really interested in m50 as it is too heavy for the purpose I need it,but Iwas considering spending a small fortune to build M54,but extensive research shows that almost none of the original parts can be used for performance.
    I really like the 'evolution' in your opinions for just 3 pages,you sir rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by livinginexile5 View Post
    i respectfully disagree, the topic was 2v vs 4 valve not 2v bmw vs 4v bmw





    Oh yeah I can see how a top fuel motor can easily be confused on Bimmerforums ... being that we run nitromethane and 2v V8's and all... yeah totally I can see why you're confused...




    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    I dont think you can make that timing even on M20,but it may be up for some great numbers,briefly I am not really interested in m50 as it is too heavy for the purpose I need it,but Iwas considering spending a small fortune to build M54,but extensive research shows that almost none of the original parts can be used for performance.
    I really like the 'evolution' in your opinions for just 3 pages,you sir rock
    You obviously have trouble reading if you think my opinion has evolved. I cannot help you think. I have no idea what you're reading to have come to that conclusion. There should be a comprehension test followed by a significant fee for using the internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by livinginexile5 View Post
    why would you bother to argue NA engines in a forced induction thread.
    Troll.
    Last edited by 5mall5nail5; 03-18-2012 at 12:53 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Quote Originally Posted by livinginexile5 View Post
    your arguement for the m60 seems like an excercise in futility i cannot think of a single (current) bmw v8 that only had 2 valves per cylinder. and by that measure you could compare it to a 2 v sbc/sbf/sbm and you would find yourself up a creek without a paddle because the american made engine make WAY more power with their 2v engines than even the s62 and even the new gen bmw twin turbo v8's (though that may not be the case for long)
    I am sorry, where did I state that an m60 had 2v? Where did I say there was a 2v equivalent. Why are you arguing lol? Timing maps confirm physics. It's funny - they work hand in hand. What are you even arguing any longer?

    Really? A 5.7 - 7.3L engine makes more power than a 4.9L. That's amazing - good find. The domestic two valves require more ignition advance , so that brings us back to the basis of the thread.

    Isn't there like an AOL chatroom you can go argue in?

    Oh I get it - livinginexile... joined march 2012... 13 posts... trolls in my build thread. trolls in my valve tech thread... ah you must be a troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    :

    You obviously have trouble reading if you think my opinion has evolved. I cannot help you think. I have no idea what you're reading to have come to that conclusion. There should be a comprehension test followed by a significant fee for using the internet.
    Now you can answer yourself why the other guy's post is a tech talk and most of yours isnt.
    "That is well documented" equals "It is so because I said so" argument.
    I am probably the next troll,because I dont agree with you.
    And your opinion didnt 'evolve' ,it is just slippery.I dont know who the f**k cares about NA engine in that thread,but if you want to prove you're right you are free to post some factory maps for the spoken engines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    Now you can answer yourself why the other guy's post is a tech talk and most of yours isnt.
    "That is well documented" equals "It is so because I said so" argument.
    I am probably the next troll,because I dont agree with you.
    And your opinion didnt 'evolve' ,it is just slippery.I dont know who the f**k cares about NA engine in that thread,but if you want to prove you're right you are free to post some factory maps for the spoken engines.
    I think I've posted this before in another thread, but I will post it again once more:

    I will not retype things over and over for you. Read my posts - then, develop a thought. I have not changed my "opinion". You can strobe a factory M20 at idle and a factory M50 at idle and see their IDLE timing is nearly double. Do it for yourself if you do not believe me. At the end of the day, everyone else here has confirmed. I don't know why you're arguing. It's not a fact because I said so, it's a fact because every single timing map in an M20 motor is running with significantly more timing advance than an M50 doing the same work.

    What is there to doubt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    every single timing map in an M20 motor is running with significantly more timing advance than an M50 doing the same work.
    Define "the same work".

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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    Now you can answer yourself why the other guy's post is a tech talk and most of yours isnt.
    "That is well documented" equals "It is so because I said so" argument.
    I am probably the next troll,because I dont agree with you.
    And your opinion didnt 'evolve' ,it is just slippery.I dont know who the f**k cares about NA engine in that thread,but if you want to prove you're right you are free to post some factory maps for the spoken engines.
    I'm sorry man, what? This isn't because Jon said so, between an M20 and an M50, there is a factor of roughly two on the timing maps. This is in large part due to the valves, as well as other engine construction things. Its not like this is any sort of new info, Jon just posted it up with some pictures to show different flame fronts.

    I really wish I had a better timing map from my car, but I don't have the ViPEC software installed anymore and don't want to deal with that tonight to get you a graph. I do have a DME timing map (WOT) overlaid on a pull, as well as Otis posted up his M30's map. Check it out.

    M30


    M50
    Take a peek at Otis' idle area. About 20* on his motor. My M50 took about 9*. Very very normal for an M50.
    Quote Originally Posted by livinginexile5 View Post
    saw this and thought i'd repost it here



    sorry kevlar for copy and pasting your likeness


    Kevlar
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    Agree to disagree ... respectfully!
    It's a shame I really have to post an announcement of this nature. I would like to think that adults would be able to get along with one another and [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]voice[/COLOR][/COLOR] their opinions without constantly pickign fights with one another over what they think is best.

    Listen folks... everyone is entitled to their opinion. That's fine. However, please do not try to force your opinion on others. If you disagree with something they say/do, you can speak your mind, but don't follow them around the forum trying to beat sense into them because you feel that your opinion is right. If you documents to back up your opinion, great... but in the end ... people are going to do what they want to do and you can't do anything about it.

    So... learn to get along or at least learn to take your [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]drama[/COLOR][/COLOR] elsewhere. When I have to start kicking people out of the sandbox because they can't play nicely together, it really takes some of the fun out of all of us enthusiasts being able to discuss things together ... respectfully.

    __________________
    Dude, what? GTFO troll.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkSideofWill View Post
    Define "the same work".
    Power output.
    Last edited by SiGmA; 03-18-2012 at 01:54 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    I think I've posted this before in another thread, but I will post it again once more:

    I will not retype things over and over for you. Read my posts - then, develop a thought. I have not changed my "opinion". You can strobe a factory M20 at idle and a factory M50 at idle and see their IDLE timing is nearly double. .................
    So that is all you got? From a thread called TECH TALK and after all that discussion you are talking about idle?Really?In that subforum?The great tuner opened a complete thread to discuss the idle timing?Now that is pathetic.That is what I call slippery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    So that is all you got? From a thread called TECH TALK and after all that discussion you are talking about idle?Really?In that subforum?The great tuner opened a complete thread to discuss the idle timing?Now that is pathetic.That is what I call slippery.
    I am not surprised that's all you've got out of the thread. You don't seem to pay much attention.

    An M20 runs 16 at idle.

    An M50 runs about 9.

    That's nearly 1/2 the amount of timing.

    My point stands.

    How about this - since you don't believe there is any difference in timing advance required (even though Gunni, an engine design engineer confirmed, but hey...) why not run an M50 map in your M20? Should make the same power right?
    Last edited by 5mall5nail5; 03-18-2012 at 01:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by livinginexile5 View Post
    diyautotune's basemap for the m20 is 16 degrees at idle

    if it's running 25 degrees more timing than the m50 then you must be something like -4 to -9 degrees of timing... yes jon your story is changing...
    My brain hurts a little more every time I read your posts.

    If Jon said approx double, and DIYAutoTune suggests 16* at idle, and an M50 takes 9* or so... A factor of 0.5625 which is damn close to half, or double going the other way. But somehow you think half of 16 is -4 to -9? WTF?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 View Post
    I am not surprised that's all you've got out of the thread. You don't seem to pay much attention.

    An M20 runs 16 at idle.

    An M50 runs about 9.

    That's nearly 1/2 the amount of timing.

    My point stands.

    How about this - since you don't believe there is any difference in timing advance required (even though Gunni, an engine design engineer confirmed, but hey...) why not run an M50 map in your M20? Should make the same power right?
    And you are absolutely sure about that,you can almost swear in the bible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bawareca View Post
    And you are absolutely sure about that,you can almost swear in the bible?
    No, I am lying about M50 idle figures.

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