Will an M70 do 7000rpm?

[sbeckman7]

@ Sbeckman7

I know this project , don't know from where but read through it somewhere.

Looks great!

However,

why are you using the indirect steering assembly? I'd use something out of an E46 or E36 which is direct rack and pinion.

Wout
Amsterdam

You may have stumbled upon the build thread which can be found here: http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=78677

As for the steering, I'm using the e32's hydroboost system so I will have power brakes and power steering (planning on DDing the car as long as its sunny) and I'll be using an e36 rack. Only issue is it'll have to be a flipped RHD rack as the e28 steering linkage is behind the front subframe and the e36 steering is in front.

Please contact me via email (info@wokke.de) once you're ready for a chip set. Then we can work out something.

Looking forward to it.

[Bryson]

Bryson, looking at the ARP Bolts from an M20 application, will update if they work correctly. If not I will just find some standard Grade 12.9 M10X110 Bolts.

I have it in my notes that m20s use 150mm head bolts. The bolts in that engine go through the cam towers as well, not just the valve spring floor area like ours. I too have thought about using McMaster's metric blue 110mm bolts, but I'd really rather go with some studs as I'm going forced induction. Please let me know if you figure something out! I'm sure that ARP has something off the shelf that can work..

[Bryson]

As for the steering, I'm using the e32's hydroboost system so I will have power brakes and power steering (planning on DDing the car as long as its sunny) and I'll be using an e36 rack. Only issue is it'll have to be a flipped RHD rack as the e28 steering linkage is behind the front subframe and the e36 steering is in front.

Are you creating new spindle plates for the bottom of the struts? This has also been on my to-do list for a long time so be able to adapt a RHD steering rack. Without new plates, the lever ratio is poor and you will have a slow steering ratio and poor turning radius

[sbeckman7]

Are you creating new spindle plates for the bottom of the struts? This has also been on my to-do list for a long time so be able to adapt a RHD steering rack. Without new plates, the lever ratio is poor and you will have a slow steering ratio and poor turning radius

I emailed ARP regarding studs, I'll let you know what happens. What are the spindle plates you're referring to and why would they yield poor steering radius?

[Arsenic]

What makes those ARP head studs so special?

Quality, reliable, industry standard. They are just made so well, with my experience being excellent QC. Threadcutting, finishing, dimensional accuracy - all perfect. The heat treating and alloy composition resists stretching and thread deformation so you get reliable torques, again again and again. They teach you about correct torque on every box. Racing 40 year old English cars I can sometimes get to re-torque a head three times in a weekend! I have broken a couple of motors with ARP bolts, it was never the ARP part that failed.

[Bryson]

I emailed ARP regarding studs, I'll let you know what happens. What are the spindle plates you're referring to and why would they yield poor steering radius?

It's the lever arm at the bottom of the strut that the tie rods act on. The lever arm is much longer on a steering box car than on a steering rack car due to the limitations of the steering rack not having as much displacement as the box linkage is capable of.

Because the lever arm is longer, the displacement of the steering rack (left to right) will not have as great an effect on the wheel rotation. Your best and easiest bet would be to convert to an e30/e36/e46 spindle assembly if you'd like to use a rack&pinion without manufacturing new spindle plates (removable on e32/34/31, not removable on e30/36/46).

[koenig d]

Why choose the M70?
M73 is a better choice
S 70 better still.
or

[sbeckman7]

It's the lever arm at the bottom of the strut that the tie rods act on. The lever arm is much longer on a steering box car than on a steering rack car due to the limitations of the steering rack not having as much displacement as the box linkage is capable of.

Because the lever arm is longer, the displacement of the steering rack (left to right) will not have as great an effect on the wheel rotation. Your best and easiest bet would be to convert to an e30/e36/e46 spindle assembly if you'd like to use a rack&pinion without manufacturing new spindle plates (removable on e32/34/31, not removable on e30/36/46).

Ah ok, that's what I thought you were referring to but I didn't know what they were called. Since I've already modified the housings I have for my coil overs and I have access to a CNC laser cutter, I'll just modify the old ones or make new ones. What's you're boost project gonna be? Need some details Also, PM me with your email address and I'll send you the order form I got from ARP.

Why choose the M70?
M73 is a better choice
S 70 better still.
or

I was going to get that really nice refreshed M73 with the white valve covers that was in the FS section here but it got sold before I was able to return from Australia So I'm "stuck" with my M70, which will get rebuilt... with boost in mind I'm working on speccing up the ultimate budget turbo build. Either going with T3/60's from a ford thunderbird turbo coupe or kkk 24's from an audi, amazon/ebay intercooler as long as its quality, oem headers with a custom Y-pipe going to straight pipes, chipped OEM ECU's...

Oh the joys of low compression and factory forged internals. Aiming for 5-600 hp.

[smokum]

Turbo Things that i come across
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1757835

[sbeckman7]

Turbo Things that i come across
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1757835

Hm, if only they would cast a special order run of the other cylinder bank for M70 owners.

[sofiabghome]

May I ask a question ?

Is it so necessary to use BMW V12 engine ?

Also as far as I can see the engine is going to absolute tubular chassis, right ?

Anri

[sbeckman7]

May I ask a question ?

Is it so necessary to use BMW V12 engine ?

Also as far as I can see the engine is going to absolute tubular chassis, right ?

Anri

Yes you may ask a question
Of course its not necessary. Not sure what you mean in your second question.

[sofiabghome]

I mean the V12 BMW will be installed in the chassis you are custom build up right ?

Its like tubular race chassis ?

Anri

[sbeckman7]

I mean the V12 BMW will be installed in the chassis you are custom build up right ?

Its like tubular race chassis ?

Anri

Correct.

[sofiabghome]

@ sbeckman7

This is all my opinion ! No hard feelings to all M70 owners...

The M70 is absolute not a good choice and specially if you don not care what is the engine choice, that is why I asked before. And also your concern of making more than 200+mph with 7000rpm.

As Sir Wout is very right for aerodynamics over 150mph but the antibiotic for that is to have more HP and torque, right ?

The M70 V12 is Yesterday engineering...

-2 Valve per cyl is absolute Unacceptable in terms of performance...Yes for M20 in 325is E30 I love it.. but when start mess up with performance No.
- 2 Valve per cylinder, that said I should even stop but lets keep going
- Rocker arms...
- does not supply coils packs on each cyl..(yes you can make build custom)
- 5.0L for V12 is ok but not that great, 5L for V8 is perfect
- All in all its does not offer the performance design.
- You want to make 200mph+ and rev to 7000rpms correct ?

Well hear is what I think was so much better idea of something cheaper and for sure will cover you need. like I said all my opinion

This sounds much better! M120 V12 48Valves 4 valve per cylinder with Single Vanos on the intake side,coil on plug on each cyl, taken from mercedes. You have 6.0L, 408HP an 430 LB/FT out of M120 V12 all from the factory and yes with min upgrade you can rev to 7000rpm! and I guarantee you will make easy more than 200+mph, is what you want right ?

Since you are using this engine in Tubular chassis you can build custom huge equal headers, bigger throttle body something like close to 100mm and with with Vipec stand alone you could reach close to 500hp for a lot less money...

Your start is from 150th floor up...vs M70 as you enter from the first floor from the same building with 300HP 332 LB/FT...that is 108hp less and 100 LB/FT less..and not only that you are restricted with a lot.

With same amount of money as you have as a budget I will create so much more with M120 V12 48V that you will never ever get out of M70...

Remember, the M70 was the step to the V12 E31 Prototype 6.0L V12 48V...You have very similar concept with M120 V12 6.0L 48Valves

Your project is absolute beautiful and I love it is something diff but lets make the max out it.

Not too late to change things..

Enjoy the art out of M120 48V

As my memory serves me well I have 2 or 3 engines M120 sitting at my play house and collecting dust...if interest you can pm me.

I am attaching you the similar project on the Tubular chassis as you do, but with M120 V12. Enjoy

Best
Anri

[Fatandre]

What about the n74?

[sofiabghome]

What about the n74?

It is super easy to give the top advice when the money are not yours at any project.

That N74 will cost your entire arm and a leg and all your Bank savings+++

A

[Sebring NL]

What about the n74?

And they break down.



@ Anri

super quality post.

As you know, we're putting the Alpina M70 into our E28.

Agree that the Mercedes V12 is better, but Alpina got 350hp out of the relative simple M70. Without cats, I think 360 isn't strange.

The problem with the M70 is the valves, they can't take more than they already do. So, intake or exhaust won't make much difference. Thats why Alpina didn't use an equal length header system. It just wouldn't work.


I think the MB engine is a work of art, however, since I maintain an SL600, its also much more complicated and bigger than the M70, which is really a small engine once you strip all the nonsense of it. Quite good for engine swaps. Also, its a normal non-CAN BUS.

I dont think the MB V12 can see much more than 400hp without spending $20.000 honestly.

Wout

[sbeckman7]

Thanks for your responses. I'm going to have to do a lot of research on cost, reliability, aftermarket availability, and weight of the M120 to see if it makes sense for me.

[Richard454]

Why bother w/a MB V12....for the price of a set of gaskets you can have 600 HP EASY..... from a 2 valve/cylinder- OHV no doubt... rocker arms... LSx V8 from a truck w/ a cheap Chinese turbo...

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...2/viewall.html


My professor (YEARS ago) once said-"It's tough to hit a moving target...and imposible to hit if it's moved out of range...."

Richard

[sofiabghome]

And they break down.



@ Anri

super quality post.

As you know, we're putting the Alpina M70 into our E28.

Agree that the Mercedes V12 is better, but Alpina got 350hp out of the relative simple M70. Without cats, I think 360 isn't strange.

The problem with the M70 is the valves, they can't take more than they already do. So, intake or exhaust won't make much difference. Thats why Alpina didn't use an equal length header system. It just wouldn't work.


I think the MB engine is a work of art, however, since I maintain an SL600, its also much more complicated and bigger than the M70, which is really a small engine once you strip all the nonsense of it. Quite good for engine swaps. Also, its a normal non-CAN BUS.

I dont think the MB V12 can see much more than 400hp without spending $20.000 honestly.

Wout

Wout,

Always have fun with you talking on the same language, you know what I mean.

Well I would say you are the biggest freak I have ever met on Alpina products. I absolute love your swap and it will become monster. I love how the V12 start like their is no compression...I can not wait to see it finished.

Wout, early years M120 are already 408hp why do you need to spent 20k to do so ? am I missing something ?

I dont want to talk even about the latest version of the M120 its a piece of shit...My aunt's S600 W220 is 3 valves per cylinder...MB downgrade with that motor...But anyway...

Please next time when you service that SL600(By the way what year is the car ?) Measure the down pipe exhaust and you will start laughing as hard as you can...They are little bigger than the M20 pipes...Also not to mention MB loves to use single pipe to the rear muffler...huge restrictor...

I am absolute positive I put this motor in the that chassis and build custom huge headers, with huge "X" pipe, dual 3inch pipes to make this 6.0L V12 open its chests and start breath, play with the bigger mafs, use simple stand alone because the Vanos is ON and OFF similar as on E36 M3 US version M50 engine family.. MB M104, M119 With all that said I am very positive I will make around 40hp at the engine. It may sound unrealistic to you but have you seen the headers on that motor ? They are as bad as on M20...

Also on the M120 you can give pretty agressive timing because its has knock sensors...helps to prevent to blew the motor vs M70 with none.

Exhaust system improves flow and means the engine will start operate leaner, leaner is leading for more power. That is all those perfomance chips do.

Also knowing how conservative Mercedes-Benz is with street car imagine how much they backed up the tunning on the M120...

All in all I am for the M120 day and night..

Anri

Thanks for your responses. I'm going to have to do a lot of research on cost, reliability, aftermarket availability, and weight of the M120 to see if it makes sense for me.

Hi,
Well the M120 reliability is much better than the M70...You have knock sensors to prevent detonation, pinging which is a major cause for engine fail.

Also have you thought about the M70 running it on 100 Octane gas and as memory serves me one galon is like 11$ right so V12 is very thirsty. vs M120 you can use 91 pump gas and still make 400hp+

Also since its a tubular chassis and you have the motor pushed back behind the front wheel the extra weight around 30pounds will not make absolute any difference. M120 is all aluminum engine all the way... Mercedes is using V8 Aluminum block from M117 engine, M100.

All in all the M120 is the way to go day and night...

Anri

Wout,

Hear is Factory Mercedes Benz video of 600SE M120

Please pay attention at 1.37min he is giving info about the motor.

Looking at this video makes me buy on W140 Coupe...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6s8Me05chc[/ame]





Anri

[sbeckman7]

Good lord Anri, you sound like a walking Mercedes brochure! You also sound extremely biased, but I understand where that is coming from

Here's my view: I currently have an M70 sitting in my garage waiting to be rebuilt. SOHC, 2 valves/cylinder, low compression, pathetic tuning. Agreed on all those fronts. But there's one very important part about this engine: It was free. And making 300hp/330ft lb stock, it's still going to give my car a hard time finding traction.

Add to that the fact that I can get a twin turbo setup using used OEM turbos for about 1k, and run it off a chipped stock ECU, and it makes much more sense to me than buying an engine from an entirely different manufacturer.

Now the M120: A superior engine in every way. Much more powerful stock, larger displacement, and even more wow factor. Here's some wikipedia info regarding engine output by year:

This engine developed 389-402 hp and 420–428 ft·lbf of torque for the 6.0 L version. 1992 only the M120 engine was offered in North America in 402 hp (300 kW) format.

So its a large power increase - although it too has a 6000rpm redline - but I'm not sure of three very important factors. The first is if I need it. The second is cost in comparison to a twin turbo M70, and the third is the wiring nightmare/aftermarket ECU.

[Sebring NL]

Anri,

I agree mostly, but still, I don't see it getting much more than 408 without serious $ spent.
Big plus on the MB V12 is ofcourse the valves, which are 100% the limiting factor on the M70.

Perhaps thats why MB also has 'bad' exhaust manifolds, Im not sure how much better ones would gain. What HP do you think you can get from upgrades you mentioned above?

I think the M70 will never see over 370 hp real-time N/A

[sofiabghome]

Anri,

I agree mostly, but still, I don't see it getting much more than 408 without serious $ spent.
Big plus on the MB V12 is ofcourse the valves, which are 100% the limiting factor on the M70.

Perhaps thats why MB also has 'bad' exhaust manifolds, Im not sure how much better ones would gain. What HP do you think you can get from upgrades you mentioned above?

I think the M70 will never see over 370 hp real-time N/A

Wout,

I am in touch with the one of the best engine tunners in the entire country, his shop is like 15mins away form were I live. He tuned the "Franken"E30 M3 V10 as you know this car. He is also tuning cars on very big and famous racing teams for Daytona 24hours, nas cars etc..

We spoke about M119 when I wanted to convert one of my W124 500E with Getrag 420G 6 speed. We sat and spoke about the engine management.

I do not remember exactly but the Throttle on the M119 was like 80mm or so. So I told him about my concept with converting 100mm TB, As big as possible custom headers, dual 3inch exhaust. He was absolute positive with the Vipec and his tune to get something like 30-40hp gain on US 91octane

Wout, I know at least 2 guys hear in LA with E39 M5 (550 as we call it) with headers, mafs, dual 3 inch exhaust, they are capable to gain around 440-450hp at the engine. So making pure 40hp on the same Dyno used before and after. S62 has 248cams if I am not mistaken, these cams are for street use. Look at the dyno on the regular E39 M5 the torque curve goes down big time after around 4 rpms.. and they are still making 30-40hp on top

What is M120 ? M119+4 cylinders, both engines are on the same principle. I am positive with huge headers, big X pipe or H pipe depends.., dual 3 inch Exhaust, as big as possible Mafs at each bank, from 6k rpms raised to 6.7k rpms, and with Neel tuning the engine, all that said min 30hp+..the rest will be given...

As you know the automatic Mercedes transmission drive train loss is around 20%+ I think..So using manual gear box on the M120 we should see min 400RWHP.

M70 can not breath and adding headers big exhaust you are not gaining much because of the valves...

Remember the M120 is already 10:1 CR that is actually not bad, more CR more HP. M70 8.8:1 CR that is terrible, I fell like BMW build the engine for turbo set up and the last moment they decide not to..and left it like that.

You dont have to spent tons of money as you think vs M70. In both cases you have to build exhaust, in both cases you have to go stand alone, in both cases you have do all this. And the gain will be critical huge vs M70.

M70 is the natural Lemon to deal with, M120 is ice the cream.

Wout, Excuse me for my long post. But I am trying to help the guy who will have night mares with his M70 with stock ECU's......etc..

Best
Anri

But there's one very important part about this engine: It was free. And making 300hp/330ft lb stock, it's still going to give my car a hard time finding traction.

In both cases you will have traction issues. But going to a stand alone system you can control that on 1st 2nd 3rd etc...

The reason the engine is for free it does not help you in this build...because you have to invest money into rebuilding the engine, engine management because the original set up is not that great ecu burns all the time etc...You will get very very close money wise to M120 choice..

At the end of the day its all your decision !

And I think you should stick with M70

[XAlt]

Going to bump this.

But I've always wondered if it'll do 6500 like the M10/20/30? 5.0 Alpinas seem to have a higher redline, as did the CSi.