S54 swap into E36 M3 sedan.

[OnUrleft]

I'm using a 6 speed with a 3.91 and 17" wheels. First is pretty pointless and hard to launch but 2-6 is just heaven, street or track I love it when i'm on a windy drive.

I so regret not getting a 4 door. I will probably switch to a four door eventually

[gobuffs]

I hoping my graph looks a whole lot better once the tune is finished. The lambda is way too rich on those pulls.

[e30polak]

I'm using a 6 speed with a 3.91 and 17" wheels. First is pretty pointless and hard to launch but 2-6 is just heaven, street or track I love it when i'm on a windy drive.

I so regret not getting a 4 door. I will probably switch to a four door eventually

As you stated on your youtube video, on the track, and windy roads, the short gears work great for you. However, for overall performance, I think that the 3.91s are overkill since your car is fairly light. A 3.64 would give you a nice 1st gear, but it maybe too long for you needs from 4th gear up.

I love the way our customer's s54 e36 feels with the ZF320, 8.5# JBR flywheel, 3.38 final drive, and the 18x9.5 w/ 245/35/18s. 1st - 4th feel awesome, and 5th cruises awesome on the freeway!

I hoping my graph looks a whole lot better once the tune is finished. The lambda is way too rich on those pulls.

Is that you Bruce?

[gobuffs]

Is that you Bruce?

Yup.

[nucci]

99% of the time the big low end losses below 4600rpm are from race exhausts with the 2-1 collector very far forward in the car. The native E46 M3 design has the H pipe almost under the fuel tank. With a dual exhaust the H-pipe is effectively the first place that exhaust pulses communicate between cylinder banks 1-3 and 4-6, just as it would be with a 2-1 race exhaust collector.

Moving 12" or more of tubing from before the collector/H pipe to after it makes a huge difference in the entire shape of the power curve. There is a reason you see:

• stock longblock, bolt-on S54's with the Bimmerworld Race Exhaust making 340whp+ SAE on honest Dynojets WITHOUT CSL airbox (you also see custom fabricated free-flowing single race exhausts with a far forward collector performing similarly)
• stock longblock, bolt-on S54's with OEM config (section 1, 2, muffler) even with upgraded exhaust parts, catless, and nice headers never make much more than 315whp, and you almost need a CSL airbox to get there
• stock longblock S54's with Bimmerworld Race Exhaust making anywhere close to stock torque below 4000rpm
• all dyno numbers above apply to SAE corrected 4th gear Dynojet results, some smoothing but no more than 5, from reputable dyno shops - and no other method (no Mustang, Dyno Dynamics, etc)

Mid section exhaust design is huge for this engine. I sincerely hope all the swappers-to-be understand this or they are in for torqueless cars below 4000rpm (when the S54 could be so much fun with a different mid section)!

[SteveTVM3]

Some interesting info. I'm using ebay headers, e46 m3 section 1 and then deleting the cats and resonators. The plan is then to add a custom x-pipe somewhere in between section 1 and the catback (around the gas tank area) Hopefully this will give me good results for torque and sound.

99% of the time the big low end losses below 4600rpm are from race exhausts with the 2-1 collector very far forward in the car. The native E46 M3 design has the H pipe almost under the fuel tank. With a dual exhaust the H-pipe is effectively the first place that exhaust pulses communicate between cylinder banks 1-3 and 4-6, just as it would be with a 2-1 race exhaust collector.

Moving 12" or more of tubing from before the collector/H pipe to after it makes a huge difference in the entire shape of the power curve. There is a reason you see:

• stock longblock, bolt-on S54's with the Bimmerworld Race Exhaust making 340whp+ SAE on honest Dynojets WITHOUT CSL airbox (you also see custom fabricated free-flowing single race exhausts with a far forward collector performing similarly)
• stock longblock, bolt-on S54's with OEM config (section 1, 2, muffler) even with upgraded exhaust parts, catless, and nice headers never make much more than 315whp, and you almost need a CSL airbox to get there
• stock longblock S54's with Bimmerworld Race Exhaust making anywhere close to stock torque below 4000rpm
• all dyno numbers above apply to SAE corrected 4th gear Dynojet results, some smoothing but no more than 5, from reputable dyno shops - and no other method (no Mustang, Dyno Dynamics, etc)

Mid section exhaust design is huge for this engine. I sincerely hope all the swappers-to-be understand this or they are in for torqueless cars below 4000rpm (when the S54 could be so much fun with a different mid section)!

[OnUrleft]

@ nucci

I'd look in to better tuning/ECU Calibration. It's not uncommon for an S54 to make 330rwhp without a CSL airbox but you'll need to get it on a dyno and away from canned or "modified" off the shelf maps. This takes knowing someone who has these capabilities, and there's not many. Epic Motorsports, Bimmerworld, Vac etc.

Mine did 326 with ebay headers, stock mid piping, stock E36 M3 exhaust and an airbox. The airbox doesn't do so much in terms of all out gains, especially when just sitting on a dyno sucking in hot air but that piece is just on a different level of awesome

[nucci]

@ nucci

I'd look in to better tuning/ECU Calibration. It's not uncommon for an S54 to make 330rwhp without a CSL airbox but you'll need to get it on a dyno and away from canned or "modified" off the shelf maps. This takes knowing someone who has these capabilities, and there's not many. Epic Motorsports, Bimmerworld, Vac etc.

Mine did 326 with ebay headers, stock mid piping, stock E36 M3 exhaust and an airbox. The airbox doesn't do so much in terms of all out gains, especially when just sitting on a dyno sucking in hot air but that piece is just on a different level of awesome

Airbox does 12-27whp over stock plastic plenum, depending on which box and how well it is tuned. (I guess technically you could say 0-20 since some of the shoddy ones aren't worth using but I think you know what I mean).

I talked to Epic today. I do know a bit and 330whp on stock internals/stock plastic airbox/custom tune doesn't happen either - not without using an exhaust configuration which kills low end torque...

Here's a graph you posted in the past of your car.

Now here's an Epic tuned car with Ebay headers, replica CSL airbox, and otherwise stock E46 M3 exhaust -section 1, 2, and muffler box.


At 3700 RPM you are making 200 lb-ft rear wheel torque while the other car makes 235 lb-ft.

[e30polak]

99% of the time the big low end losses below 4600rpm are from race exhausts with the 2-1 collector very far forward in the car. The native E46 M3 design has the H pipe almost under the fuel tank. With a dual exhaust the H-pipe is effectively the first place that exhaust pulses communicate between cylinder banks 1-3 and 4-6, just as it would be with a 2-1 race exhaust collector.

Moving 12" or more of tubing from before the collector/H pipe to after it makes a huge difference in the entire shape of the power curve. There is a reason you see:

• stock longblock, bolt-on S54's with the Bimmerworld Race Exhaust making 340whp+ SAE on honest Dynojets WITHOUT CSL airbox (you also see custom fabricated free-flowing single race exhausts with a far forward collector performing similarly)
• stock longblock, bolt-on S54's with OEM config (section 1, 2, muffler) even with upgraded exhaust parts, catless, and nice headers never make much more than 315whp, and you almost need a CSL airbox to get there
• stock longblock S54's with Bimmerworld Race Exhaust making anywhere close to stock torque below 4000rpm
• all dyno numbers above apply to SAE corrected 4th gear Dynojet results, some smoothing but no more than 5, from reputable dyno shops - and no other method (no Mustang, Dyno Dynamics, etc)

Mid section exhaust design is huge for this engine. I sincerely hope all the swappers-to-be understand this or they are in for torqueless cars below 4000rpm (when the S54 could be so much fun with a different mid section)!

Great points you make here. Bruce's (gobuffs) 3.5" race exhaust is probably a large part of his poor torque numbers down low.

Airbox does 12-27whp over stock plastic plenum, depending on which box and how well it is tuned. (I guess technically you could say 0-20 since some of the shoddy ones aren't worth using but I think you know what I mean).

I talked to Epic today. I do know a bit and 330whp on stock internals/stock plastic airbox/custom tune doesn't happen either - not without using an exhaust configuration which kills low end torque...

Here's a graph you posted in the past of your car.

Now here's an Epic tuned car with Ebay headers, replica CSL airbox, and otherwise stock E46 M3 exhaust -section 1, 2, and muffler box.


At 3700 RPM you are making 200 lb-ft rear wheel torque while the other car makes 235 lb-ft.

More interesting findings here. OnUrLeft is actually making nice torque downlow compared to Bruce. I'm not sure if that's all in the exhaust, or if his tune is more dialed in.

From what we've seen, various CSL style ariboxes make less power down below 4,000 rpms vs. the factory plenum. The true gains from the CSL box will not be seen on a dyno, but moreover from datalogging on the road.

[nucci]

From what we've seen, various CSL style ariboxes make less power down below 4,000 rpms vs. the factory plenum. The true gains from the CSL box will not be seen on a dyno, but moreover from datalogging on the road.

My observations have been that with a healthy engine, good replica or OE airbox, and good tuning, the CSL box adds 5-8 lb-ft of torque everywhere from 2800rpm to 6000rpm, after which it really takes off and adds up to 25whp.

[e30polak]

My observations have been that with a healthy engine, good replica or OE airbox, and good tuning, the CSL box adds 5-8 lb-ft of torque everywhere from 2800rpm to 6000rpm, after which it really takes off and adds up to 25whp.

Do you have any links to these dyno graphs?

[nucci]

Do you have any links to these dyno graphs?

2 before-after comparisons from stock plastic plenum and tune, to Evolve airbox and tune. I will admit that they use a Dyno Dynamics hub dyno and then apply a correction multiplier to bring it up to EQUIVALENT FLYWHEEL numbers, but the absolute before-after comparison is valid.





Here's a before-after with the CSL replica airbox with an Evolve tune. This airbox has been available in 2 group buys on M3Forums. The car also has CSL headers and cats, which are mostly identical to Euro headers and cats except thinner tubing for weight reduction and a higher price. I wouldn't trust the before results after 6900 RPM since it seems apparent that the operator lifted - but the HP numbers up to 6900 are very much in agreement with many other graphs of stock E46 M3s with Euro header/cat setups.



The second graph I posted in my earlier post was a car with Ebay headers, replica CSL airbox, and otherwise stock E46 M3 exhaust, and made 318/244 Dynojet with an Epic tune. My old coworker has a E46M M3 with Supersprint V2 headers, and Euro cats, and it made 296/236 with an Epic tune. The only differences in this comparison would be airbox, header quality, catless vs. catted, and obviously each car's engine health/compression. Both had stock section 2 and muffler box.

Some interesting info. I'm using ebay headers, e46 m3 section 1 and then deleting the cats and resonators. The plan is then to add a custom x-pipe somewhere in between section 1 and the catback (around the gas tank area) Hopefully this will give me good results for torque and sound.

This sounds nearly identical to what I have planned except I think I'll build an H pipe instead of an X pipe. I will probably even use an E36 M3 OBD2 muffler - I like quiet!

[e30polak]

2 before-after comparisons from stock plastic plenum and tune, to Evolve airbox and tune. I will admit that they use a Dyno Dynamics hub dyno and then apply a correction multiplier to bring it up to EQUIVALENT FLYWHEEL numbers, but the absolute before-after comparison is valid.





Here's a before-after with the CSL replica airbox with an Evolve tune. This airbox has been available in 2 group buys on M3Forums. The car also has CSL headers and cats, which are mostly identical to Euro headers and cats except thinner tubing for weight reduction and a higher price. I wouldn't trust the before results after 6900 RPM since it seems apparent that the operator lifted - but the HP numbers up to 6900 are very much in agreement with many other graphs of stock E46 M3s with Euro header/cat setups.

I'd like to see this same car on a different dyno, with real world comparisons. I never believe the dyno graphs that the tuner puts out. 355whp without cams and/or race gas is pretty hard to believe....

[nucci]

I'd like to see this same car on a different dyno, with real world comparisons. I never believe the dyno graphs that the tuner puts out. 355whp without cams and/or race gas is pretty hard to believe....

I think you may not have read what I wrote above - Evolve likes to put a proprietary multiplier on their Dyno Dynamics results to show the equivalent flywheel horsepower and torque. That is very uncommon for tuners in this country.

Their results do agree. The E46 drivetrain has a much larger transmission and diff when compared to the E36. Friction and inertia consume approximately 40-45hp from the flywheel to the tires in 4th gear at 7500rpm by my research and estimation*. That would make the 355hp flywheel numbers into 310-315hp - and we saw two other CSL airbox dynos here at 310 and 318hp (one SAE corrected Dynojet, one Mustang).

B. Watts has remarked in the Track subforum that when he was having his standalone ECU tuned on an engine flywheel dyno, somewhere between 400 and 410hp was seen, and that was with the stock plastic plenum.

I hate dyno racing for the sake of impressing people, but I don't think that's what we're doing in here. Somebody stated that CSL airboxes lose low end and I wanted to show what I had found to the contrary, as well as how much they can add up top.

*research and estimation conducted by finding several stock US M3 Dynojet graphs with SAE correction and comparing both the peak HP and TQ with factory rated specs, and also repeating the same experiment for stock Euro M3 with its different headers, cats, and tune

[e30polak]

I think you may not have read what I wrote above - Evolve likes to put a proprietary multiplier on their Dyno Dynamics results to show the equivalent flywheel horsepower and torque. That is very uncommon for tuners in this country.

Their results do agree. The E46 drivetrain has a much larger transmission and diff when compared to the E36. Friction and inertia consume approximately 40-45hp from the flywheel to the tires in 4th gear at 7500rpm by my research and estimation*. That would make the 355hp flywheel numbers into 310-315hp - and we saw two other CSL airbox dynos here at 310 and 318hp (one SAE corrected Dynojet, one Mustang).

B. Watts has remarked in the Track subforum that when he was having his standalone ECU tuned on an engine flywheel dyno, somewhere between 400 and 410hp was seen, and that was with the stock plastic plenum.

I hate dyno racing for the sake of impressing people, but I don't think that's what we're doing in here. Somebody stated that CSL airboxes lose low end and I wanted to show what I had found to the contrary, as well as how much they can add up top.

*research and estimation conducted by finding several stock US M3 Dynojet graphs with SAE correction and comparing both the peak HP and TQ with factory rated specs, and also repeating the same experiment for stock Euro M3 with its different headers, cats, and tune

Fair enough. The CSL airboxes definitely add power in the midrange and up top with a proper tune. Our airbox has larger, shorter runners, which may take away from some bottom end. We will be messing with the runner design to promote better bottom end torque.

[309m3]

From what I've learned optimal runner length from the bell to the valve should be about 12". Thoughts?

[PITT M3 RR]

inn

[OnUrleft]

Airbox does 12-27whp over stock plastic plenum, depending on which box and how well it is tuned. (I guess technically you could say 0-20 since some of the shoddy ones aren't worth using but I think you know what I mean).

I talked to Epic today. I do know a bit and 330whp on stock internals/stock plastic airbox/custom tune doesn't happen either - not without using an exhaust configuration which kills low end torque...

Here's a graph you posted in the past of your car.

Now here's an Epic tuned car with Ebay headers, replica CSL airbox, and otherwise stock E46 M3 exhaust -section 1, 2, and muffler box.


At 3700 RPM you are making 200 lb-ft rear wheel torque while the other car makes 235 lb-ft.

Thanks for more clarification/more input. The second car (FatJohn325) is utilizing the street version of the BW airbox, while mine is using the "race" without the long snout and different runners (IF I was told correctly). They look different as well. Someone should chime in to tell us the exact differences.
Regardless, it's pretty easy to see you have to sacrifice torque to make top end, which is 100% understandable for a motor like this.

I'd like to see FatJohn's car on some stepped headers or Epic's new headers coming out and a LTW FW. I think he could have some serious gains

Mr. Ed Senf (the great) who tuned my car estimated 340s with a proper header and single exhaust. I love these motors!

[BadBlkE36]

Bump

[OnUrleft]

Everyone should check out Epic Motorsports facebook page.

351/267

S54 unopened
SS headers
BW plenum
3.5 race exhaust
Epic "off the shelf" remote calibration

Awesome Awesome Awesome !

[r33p04s]

Is it finished yet????

[SteveTVM3]

that's insane. I'm hoping I can squeeze out 300-310 with headers, no cats or res and a tune.

Everyone should check out Epic Motorsports facebook page.

351/267

S54 unopened
SS headers
BW plenum
3.5 race exhaust
Epic "off the shelf" remote calibration

Awesome Awesome Awesome !

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

I remember seeing s54s only making 330whp with cams like only ~3yrs ago.

[trahsub]

Wow. Just wow. These S54s are monsters now that the code is being cracked.

[1BADBMMR]

Subscribed!

This is great info. Debating if I should do this swap or just go F/I.
More and more I read, I'm leaning towards the S54 swap