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Thread: S54 swap into E36 M3 sedan.

  1. #26
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    I have...doesn't seem to be helping.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  2. #27
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    exhaust came in!

    I purchsed ebay headers, bimmerworld conversion pipe and active autowerkes
    track pipe center section. I am not happy with the fitment of the bimmerworld pipe but it says slight modification will be needed to fit.
    I will be installing it all and the fuel lines tomorrow, I will take pics and post.
    Last edited by 309m3; 02-15-2012 at 09:14 PM.

  3. #28
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    nice, its going to sound really nice. mixing cylinders 1-3 & 4-6 makes these engines sound way better.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveTVM3 View Post
    nice, its going to sound really nice. mixing cylinders 1-3 & 4-6 makes these engines sound way better.
    What?????
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    What?????
    Stock exhaust on these engines run dual piping (cylinders 1,2,3 and 4,5,6) they don't mix exhaust pulses so it doesn't sound as good as a single 3 or 3.5" or an x-pipe.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #31
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    In on this!
    1995 ///M3 Cosmos Black/Anthracite M-Cross/Amaretta


  7. #32
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    exhaust is on and fuel is plumbed!

    So after a late night last night I was able to get everything to fit. I am still going to have to do some tweaking to some of the mounting points but it is all on.
    I just used the stock m3 fuel filter and regulator with stock m3 fuel line.
















  8. #33
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    Nice progress. What are you using for engine management? Stock DME or standalone?

  9. #34
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    looks like the easy part is done now.
    coming soon, S54's for everything....

  10. #35
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    progress

    e30polak is working on something for me for the software, and yeah its fixing to start getting a little bit harder.

  11. #36
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    Wtf?

    It may have to do with the fact that you're using a DTA standalone, vs our car which has a factory DME. From what I've seen, all the people using standalones have much weaker torque between 2000-3,500 then even a factory s54....

    ******* that has to be the weirdest comment I've seen in ages..******

    How do you spell Troll?
    Alex Lipowich
    xyobgyn on AOL

    Trying to make the world a better place with 5 extra throttle bodies at a time.

  12. #37
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    DME vs standalone

    I understand what he is getting at the stock DME has better control of the torque curve. If you have a great tuner and a switch to swap to different tunes for moving the torque curve around then it might be worth while, but 5k for a standalone 2k for personal dyno time to tune I'm not sure its worth it. I know for a fact some of the fastest c mod cars from Canada are running the Bimmerworld tune with stock ecu. I think there is a place for a standalone ecu but my opinion is that it belongs on a track and not on the street. I can't afford a standalone so it is not an option but if I could I would delete Vanos and run a Motec if budget was not a factor.

  13. #38
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    I believe all of the Canadian guys are running standalone. Peter has DTA. Marquis has Pectel. Not sure what Allen has, but I think most have DTA.

    But, whatever....the power difference between a properly tuned standalone and a Epic tune is negligible. Both good solutions. Believe it or not, at the time I made my decision to fulfill all my requirements, Pectel was the cheapest solution.
    Last edited by gobuffs; 02-18-2012 at 10:24 PM.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  14. #39
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    I know Scott's old car has a stock ecu with s54 maybe I misspoke when I said alot. If I remember that car was pretty quick until it crashed if I remember i think he told me he was getting like 315 to the wheels.

  15. #40
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  16. #41
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    Scott's old car is owned by Marquis and I know he was putting a Pectel on it as he got it from the same vendor I did. I think Mark rebuild it to a 3.4L.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  17. #42
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    Sadly missinformed

    Quote Originally Posted by 309m3 View Post
    I understand what he is getting at the stock DME has better control of the torque curve. If you have a great tuner and a switch to swap to different tunes for moving the torque curve around then it might be worth while, but 5k for a standalone 2k for personal dyno time to tune I'm not sure its worth it. I know for a fact some of the fastest c mod cars from Canada are running the Bimmerworld tune with stock ecu. I think there is a place for a standalone ecu but my opinion is that it belongs on a track and not on the street. I can't afford a standalone so it is not an option but if I could I would delete Vanos and run a Motec if budget was not a factor.
    I totally respect whatever choices you've made, and any priorities you have.
    For a street car, a stock DME might be your best solution. If you're spending $1000 or $2000 for everything you need to run the engine: Finished harness, computer flashing, pedals, sensors etc, and all you have to do is plug it into your car's existing connectors then that is an incredible deal. If you're spending $3000 and up, there are options with standalones that increase your flexibility and performance options..

    Cost wise, I have no idea what EPIC charges to flash a computer and revise it to run in transplanted situations, nor what the associated pedal costs are or costs to convert an S54 harness over to run in a new environment. I also don't know if they hand off a harness that allows you to continue to read your native systems like ABS or climate control etc...things usually part of the factory BMW harness, as are details like reverse lights, turning on the fuel pump, giving information to cluster and obc etc. Easy to enough to fix though.

    What I'm reacting to is the ridiculous notion that someone is limited in some fashion from extracting maximum power from an engine with a standalone....that is just simply... well, trolling by people that should know better.

    Even an affordable unit like the DTA has more than enough data points in its maps to be close enough to the factory for purposes of making power so that it is not possible to have "better" control with either the factory system or the DTA in any way that you could measure.

    There is no practical reason a DTA will not meet anything out of a factory DME for torque and HP curve consideration.
    Last edited by M3 Euro LTW; 03-27-2012 at 06:35 PM.
    Alex Lipowich
    xyobgyn on AOL

    Trying to make the world a better place with 5 extra throttle bodies at a time.

  18. #43
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    Pricing

    car 3,400.00
    engine 2,800.00
    headers 125.00
    bimmer pipe 285.00
    active track pipe 525.00
    ecu 300.00
    pedal 30.00
    clutch kit 500.00
    wheels 320.00

    total 8,255.00

  19. #44
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    subscribed!

  20. #45
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    damn, those ebay headers are dirt cheap. Subscribing, looking forward to seeing the finished product.

  21. #46
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    all the people using standalones have much weaker torque between 2000-3,500 then even a factory s54....
    Not true with our installs. We've struggled with the DTA systems tough, several people including us and a few few other Grand Am BMW tuners who are used to using Bosch Motorsports, MOTEC and Pectel have been less than happy about the performance of the VANOS, among other things. We've tested solutions from just about every manufacturer and the variance in performance is considerable.

    For a [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue ! important]street [COLOR=blue ! important]car[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR], a stock DME might be your best solution. If you're spending $1000 or $2000 for everything you need to run [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue ! important]the [COLOR=blue ! important]engine[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]: Finished harness, computer flashing, pedals, sensors etc, and all you have to do is plug it into your car's existing connectors then that is an incredible deal. If you're spending $3000 and up, there are options with standalones that increase your flexibility and [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]performance[/COLOR][/COLOR] options..
    Actually, most of our recent system have gone to people who were strongly considering or had already bought stock ECU and harnesses. The cost difference, once you consider re-flashes, isn't that big. And the ability to control is huge. We've done many good systems in the $3000 range that not only control VANOS properly but also the e-throttles and idle air control motor properly, which means that use have non-linear throttle curves and you can use the IAC for on/off throttle blending.

    -Neel

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by neelvasavada View Post
    Actually, most of our recent system have gone to people who were strongly considering or had already bought stock ECU and harnesses. The cost difference, once you consider re-flashes, isn't that big. And the ability to control is huge. We've done many good systems in the $3000 range that not only control VANOS properly but also the e-throttles and idle air control motor properly, which means that use have non-linear throttle curves and you can use the IAC for on/off throttle blending.

    -Neel
    Sorry to sidetrack a little...

    Neel, how is the Pectel SQ6 compare with the OEM MSS54 in terms of absolute reliability? I need to finish up my S54 swap, mechanical part is easy, still undecided on the electronics... this is my retired track car which will become my DD.. i.e. 100% reliability, cold air-con, rock-stable idle... Also, there are no good tuners within 10,000 miles of where I am, so the basemap/tune needs to be 99% right out of the box.

    to the OP... great build! love that it's a 4DR
    - Peter Shen -

  23. #48
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    Neel, how is the Pectel SQ6 compare with the OEM MSS54 in terms of absolute reliability? I need to finish up my S54 swap, mechanical part is easy, still undecided on the electronics... this is my retired track car which will become my DD.. i.e. 100% reliability, cold air-con, rock-stable idle... Also, there are no good tuners within 10,000 miles of where I am, so the basemap/tune needs to be 99% right out of the box.
    Its built for WRC and lives on the back of offshore powerboat motors. Its designed, built and tested to very high standards for reliability and performance. If you're far away from tuners, you have to choose your system from a supplier who can support you and has the resources to teach you to be your own tuner - and has good, solid base maps.

    -Neel

  24. #49
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    Neel, how is the Pectel SQ6 compare with the OEM MSS54 in terms of absolute reliability? I need to finish up my S54 swap, mechanical part is easy, still undecided on the electronics... this is my retired track car which will become my DD.. i.e. 100% reliability, cold air-con, rock-stable idle... Also, there are no good tuners within 10,000 miles of where I am, so the basemap/tune needs to be 99% right out of the box.
    Its built for WRC and lives on the back of offshore powerboat motors. Its designed, built and tested to very high standards for reliability and performance. If you're far away from tuners, you have to choose your system from a supplier who can support you and has the resources to teach you to be your own tuner - and has good, solid base maps.

    -Neel

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by M3 Euro LTW View Post
    It may have to do with the fact that you're using a DTA standalone, vs our car which has a factory DME. From what I've seen, all the people using standalones have much weaker torque between 2000-3,500 then even a factory s54....

    ******* that has to be the weirdest comment I've seen in ages..******

    How do you spell Troll?
    Not trolling at all, simply stating what I've seen in comparison for the dyno graphs of the DTA powered cars posted, vs a factory e46 m3 dyno. I don't have the means of overlaying the 2, but you can see on most DTA/other standalone cars, that the flat torque curve that the factory s54 offers, is not as strong on the standalone controlled vehicles.

    And I misspoke on the rpm range, it appears to be more like 3,000-almost 5,000.

    If you look at the two graphs, regardless of when the dyno operator went WOT, the stock e46 m3 makes over 200wtq on 2 of the 3 runs, at 2,500. If you look at Bruce's graph, he doesn't break 200wtq till after 5,000. I know Bruce has a large exhaust, 3.5" single, but he also has headers and a tune.

    Bruce's s54 e30 m3 graph:



    Bone stock e46 m3 graph:

    Quote Originally Posted by enigmaticdream View Post
    2004 BMW M3 with ~682xx mi
    Bone Stock
    Dynojet 248X
    4th
    SAE
    Last edited by e30polak; 02-23-2012 at 04:59 PM.

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