1995 BMW E36 M3 LTW Tribute/Track car

[jrkoupe]

I hope the outcome is positive. Our thoughts are with you.

+1...

working on the car can be great therapy. Hope things get back to normal for you....

[purplem3pursuit]

Tons of awesome in this car/thread.

Jelly.

[jmitro]

+1, great DIY composite skills. How are you getting enough heat for the carbon resin to cure? I only worked with fiberglass but never got around to carbon. A weave is stronger in 2 dimensions than unidirectional, so I would use that.

if you do the PTG theme are you planning on widebody fenders? there's a few project cars on the forum like that. it looks awesome if done right and with the right deep dish wheels

[mateo m3]

man very nice!!!!!!!!!!!! i really want the back seat delete dude!!!!!!! also a set of door panels

[elliott95]

Thank you all for the nice comments and the wishes to my family, its nice to meet good people. Its been hard but its getting better day by day!!!


Jmitro: The epoxy resin does not take lots of heat to cure. It takes normal room temperature and wont cure if put in a freezer but it actually creates an exothermic reaction and makes its own heat when curing.

If you put it in a plastic cup when curing the cup will melt slightly from the heat...pretty wild...

The unidirectional can be stronger if used in the right way but it really just depends on your application etc

Yes, i do plan on the wide body but i want the real PTG look so i will have to tub the chassis and make or remold the kit i buy to create the front arches from the real PTG car... I might go Ma Shaw or i might just do it all myself not sure yet.

Its a way off in the future but i am thinking about it more and more...hehehe



Update later tonight!!!

[jmitro]

ah, ok. same exothermic reaction as the polyester resin I use for fiberglass.

unidirectional will be stronger only in one direction, not in two. I agree, it depends on your use.

[elliott95]

Hey guys i picked a cage design that is final (and that took forever, what a pain). Its a hybrid between the PTG (mostly) and a cage that will allow the car to run in GTS classes among others etc ( i just added a few bars).

It will be done by next Thursday and i will have a good solid update over the weekend.

This car will become a PTG replica car as i have since changed my mind again haha. I think i always new it was going to be one, just nervous about the amount of work ahead.

Anyways this is the first issue (with many more to follow). I have researched a lot of cars and looked at lots of pictures (for the cage) but i can tell there are at least three different FRONT fender types on the PTG cars and some slight variations of REAR fenders. The rears are going to be easier because i am just going to follow the most common design and it looks like they all follow similar rear fender designs.

The fronts create an issue though.

They are as follows:

These two are the same design of front fenders and the car with Warsteiner on it is what my cars liveries will hopefully look like





Here is the second design:



And the third:



The second and third look identical at first glance but in reality the second has pretty much flat or perfectly HORIZONTAL arches VS the third has some slight downward angle NOT MUCH but some.

I think i am going to go with the second set of flares (most aggressive i.e. horizontal) but taper them into the first style of front bumper. I like the look of the front bumper on the first car the most. It retains the LTW splitter and just looks sleeker.

This might change once i mold the flares but that's the game plan (the second cars front bumper is growing on me). YES, I AM MAKING THE KIT. I have looked at all the kits and for my personal satisfaction all of them including the MA Shaw would take extensive modification for me to be pleased. I would buy the original PTG if it wasn't $10,000 but i cant afford that plus i wouldn't spend that much anyway ..... maybe $4,000 tops....

I have decided i will just make it from scratch plus i LOVE working on the car and building new things. I looked at buying one then modifying it but to be honest i would rather lay it up in full carbon (Like PTG) VS buying one that uses chopper glass/fiberglass at best, then cutting, clamping, refitting, reinforcing, sanding, etc. Not to mention they all use Polyester resin at very best Vinyl-ester resin (but i doubt it) when i will be using epoxy/carbon fiber.

So what say you Bimmerforums? You guys think its impossible? Comments welcome but i wont reply to mean ones

[M3 Euro LTW]

Be VERY careful with your plans on the front fender.

PTG made dramatic modifications to front inner fenders including shock tower changes, tubbing, and custom geometry to lower the car down enough to use those flat top-like fenders.

From a practical perspective, you will ruin your handling if all you do is create that outer look, and preserve your tower, wheel well, and drop with just springs to get that gap.

This is the reason Mike Shaw modified the design to match the rear quarter angles.

Heads up, that is all, not a critique.

[jmitro]

+1 to what Alex said.
the cars look badass of course, but it's not as simple as molding the fenders. My understanding is the MAShaw kit is a copy of the original molds except for what Alex stated - maybe someone can clarify?

[M3 Euro LTW]

The set that MaShaw based his kit on were originally off true early PTG parts, supplied by a club racer, but the front bumper cover was not available to him from that set, so his initial offering was with a revised (and ugly IMHO) E46 nose. It was not a great match either.

A well known club racer commissioned a revised and far superior nose to match the kit, as well as initiating (my understanding) a revision of the fenders to compensate for what the vast majority of club level racers actually would have in terms of suspension. This new nose is not a clone of PTG's front bumper cover bits, but has some intrinsic advantages, and works very nicely.

I happen to know the names and details, but they are not particularly relevant.

While I like and appreciate historical accuracy in terms of mimicry being ultimate form of flattery, I would not like:

A) the gap resulting from incomplete conversion of front clip
B) ruining handling to close the gap, or
C) spending enough dough to duplicate the front clip and do it properly as PTG had.

Also, I would like to shamelessly plug Mike's work quality and made in America WB kit that he sells. I love mine.

(Also, a warning about using the PTG WB style rear quarters, there are 3 layers of metal to revise, not simple either. I do not want to post any links to my website, but with a little work, you can find photos showing what is needed to accommodate the rear fender flares properly...at least my shade-tree attempts at making it all work.)

[elliott95]

M3 Euro LTW:

My main concern is exactly what you are talking about. I know i can create the fenders and the rear flares but i am more concerned about the GEOMETRY of the car.

When you (and others say) TUBBED the chassis what exactly did BMW/PTG do?

I am aware (from pictures) that the entire metal surrounding the front strut housing is different but did they leave the strut geometry the same and just create room for the wheels/tires?

Or is the strut housing moved up and tilted at an angle for different suspension geometry?

I never found rear strut tower pictures but i will need some for the right design of the car. Are they totally different like the front as well?

Also are all these parts one off from PTG in terms of length and diameter etc: control arms, knuckles, half shafts, tie rods, sway bars etc

Or did they use OEM e36 parts?

Any idea if there is a spec sheet on the car? Wheel base/size/offset??? Anything?

PS: Keep the critique coming guys i need as much input as possible if i am going to design the car properly.

Also yes i am aware of the tricky three layers of metal in the rear and when i get to that point it will be done very carefully and over a long time frame just to be sure its done right.

After debating this layup and design without any measurements i have decided to buy a replica front bumper and then modify it to have a base starting ground. Most i have seen are close the PTG cars fronts, its just that the flares are skinnier and not exactly right in design.

EDIT: The other thing i keep noticing about the MA Shaw kit and others is that the driver side rear flare if more horizontal then the passenger side Or not as tilted downward). Is this true? Or an illusion?

[M3 Euro LTW]

M3 Euro LTW:When you (and others say) TUBBED the chassis what exactly did BMW/PTG do?

Elliot,

The E36 M3 was raced by PTG over several years, and in several incarnations. Over time it morphed from a fairly stockish looking Coupe to a full blown WB Sedan.

One would have to ask this question in a different way, literally: For the #__ car as it was raced in year ____, what was done for front suspension lowering and widening of track.

The answer will not be the same from year to year.

In the later years, certainly the parts were all custom boxed in struts, tubbed sections, custom rods, sways, linkages, and geometry different by far from factory. They raised shock towers to lower the engine and their front splitters would have been different heights off the ground to match etc etc etc...

Simply put, and I mean no offense by this, to actually use a flat topped fender and try to fill it with a tire and have proper gap will be difficult with off the shelf struts..... and, that is unfortunately the tip of the iceberg really in terms of trying to get things right.

I'm NOT trying to discourage you.

Also, early cars did have grafted on FG flare fenders, not whole one piece CF as someone alluded to. There are images on the net showing this.

[elliott95]

Alex,

alright i understand what you are saying about configuration and setup depending on what year the car was made to race etc.

I will probably make the fenders fit and look like the red Yokohama car (so i would go off of it). The first thing i notice drastic is the strut housing being moved in about 3" inches from the side of the car and it looks to be moved or tilted back as well. Here is a picture that shows the difference between mine and the Yokohama car.

I am thinking i will need to find exact measurements of the strut location. Any idea how i can go about doing this? I realize only four PTG cars exist? so its going to be hard to find someone willing to let me take a detailed look at one.

Pictures:







I am thinking i will just tackle each issue as it arises. The suspension will be a huge factor but i will just solve each problem as it comes at me.

Also i know your not trying to discourage me your just letting me know what i am in for and i appreciate it. Any idea where i can find detailed pictures of this car? Or any PTG car?

Update soon.

[M3 Euro LTW]

You're pretty much On Your Own for this project.

TBH unless you've got experience as a chassis engineer, understand all the variables and measurements that it takes to set up a chassis and have access to the modelling programs for roll center, etc etc etc...I think it is a poor idea to start arbitrarily copying the appearance of something or trying to measure something after the fact to fabricate your car's front geometry.

At the end of the day, you can only lower your E36 so much in front before you screw up the handling.

There are so many things you're not taking into consideration... for example, one of the reasons they could go so low is the rock hard suspension, minimal travel etc. No way you're going to set your car up that low or stiff. You don't even want to. First time you put two off or hit a rumble strip, you'll tear the crap out of the splitter you devise...

unless you intend to fabricate something like they did, something you could step on, and not deflect.... do you?

So given you're really not going to drop the car as much as they did, arguably don't want to, I would save a ton of time and money and poor handling, and get the Shaw fenders. You couldn't even get a PTG car like the real one up most of our trailers.

I mean, how far are you going with the tribute? Wouldn't you rather drop a Euro motor under the hood than have the right fenders and a poor handling car? Or, does the budget really stretch to the point where all that will happen?

Just sayin...

[ALong]

Hey guys i picked a cage design that is final (and that took forever, what a pain). Its a hybrid between the PTG (mostly) and a cage that will allow the car to run in GTS classes among others etc ( i just added a few bars).

It will be done by next Thursday and i will have a good solid update over the weekend.

This car will become a PTG replica car as i have since changed my mind again haha. I think i always new it was going to be one, just nervous about the amount of work ahead.

Anyways this is the first issue (with many more to follow). I have researched a lot of cars and looked at lots of pictures (for the cage) but i can tell there are at least three different FRONT fender types on the PTG cars and some slight variations of REAR fenders. The rears are going to be easier because i am just going to follow the most common design and it looks like they all follow similar rear fender designs.

The fronts create an issue though.

They are as follows:

These two are the same design of front fenders and the car with Warsteiner on it is what my cars liveries will hopefully look like





Here is the second design:



And the third:



The second and third look identical at first glance but in reality the second has pretty much flat or perfectly HORIZONTAL arches VS the third has some slight downward angle NOT MUCH but some.

I think i am going to go with the second set of flares (most aggressive i.e. horizontal) but taper them into the first style of front bumper. I like the look of the front bumper on the first car the most. It retains the LTW splitter and just looks sleeker.

This might change once i mold the flares but that's the game plan (the second cars front bumper is growing on me). YES, I AM MAKING THE KIT. I have looked at all the kits and for my personal satisfaction all of them including the MA Shaw would take extensive modification for me to be pleased. I would buy the original PTG if it wasn't $10,000 but i cant afford that plus i wouldn't spend that much anyway ..... maybe $4,000 tops....

I have decided i will just make it from scratch plus i LOVE working on the car and building new things. I looked at buying one then modifying it but to be honest i would rather lay it up in full carbon (Like PTG) VS buying one that uses chopper glass/fiberglass at best, then cutting, clamping, refitting, reinforcing, sanding, etc. Not to mention they all use Polyester resin at very best Vinyl-ester resin (but i doubt it) when i will be using epoxy/carbon fiber.

So what say you Bimmerforums? You guys think its impossible? Comments welcome but i wont reply to mean ones

Hey guys i picked a cage design that is final (and that took forever, what a pain). Its a hybrid between the PTG (mostly) and a cage that will allow the car to run in GTS classes among others etc ( i just added a few bars).

It will be done by next Thursday and i will have a good solid update over the weekend.

This car will become a PTG replica car as i have since changed my mind again haha. I think i always new it was going to be one, just nervous about the amount of work ahead.

Anyways this is the first issue (with many more to follow). I have researched a lot of cars and looked at lots of pictures (for the cage) but i can tell there are at least three different FRONT fender types on the PTG cars and some slight variations of REAR fenders. The rears are going to be easier because i am just going to follow the most common design and it looks like they all follow similar rear fender designs.

The fronts create an issue though.

They are as follows:

These two are the same design of front fenders and the car with Warsteiner on it is what my cars liveries will hopefully look like





Here is the second design:



And the third:



The second and third look identical at first glance but in reality the second has pretty much flat or perfectly HORIZONTAL arches VS the third has some slight downward angle NOT MUCH but some.

I think i am going to go with the second set of flares (most aggressive i.e. horizontal) but taper them into the first style of front bumper. I like the look of the front bumper on the first car the most. It retains the LTW splitter and just looks sleeker.

This might change once i mold the flares but that's the game plan (the second cars front bumper is growing on me). YES, I AM MAKING THE KIT. I have looked at all the kits and for my personal satisfaction all of them including the MA Shaw would take extensive modification for me to be pleased. I would buy the original PTG if it wasn't $10,000 but i cant afford that plus i wouldn't spend that much anyway ..... maybe $4,000 tops....

I have decided i will just make it from scratch plus i LOVE working on the car and building new things. I looked at buying one then modifying it but to be honest i would rather lay it up in full carbon (Like PTG) VS buying one that uses chopper glass/fiberglass at best, then cutting, clamping, refitting, reinforcing, sanding, etc. Not to mention they all use Polyester resin at very best Vinyl-ester resin (but i doubt it) when i will be using epoxy/carbon fiber.

So what say you Bimmerforums? You guys think its impossible? Comments welcome but i wont reply to mean ones

I have the last set of BMW Motorsports M3 GTR spare bodywork (Picture 1). It was a spare set for Johny Cecotto's ADAC GT M3. PTG bought it from BMW Motosport in 1995. They used it for that season and on Matt Cohen's M3 in 1996. PTG used the bodywork as a template to make their version 2 widebody (picture 3) which was a similar shape but 3" wider. Also they made those bodypanels out of Carbon Fiber to save weight.

I was at PTG in 1996 when they were building my SCCA T2 M3 and found the bodywork sitting on a palet behind their building. I asked them about it and ended up buying it from them. The bodywork is made of Kevlar and is not painted but actually gel coated in alpine white (like a boat). Currently the body kit resides in my attic gathering dust. Unfortunately it is too valuable to install on my racecar... One of these days I will have to get some molds made of the bodywork and install the reproductions instead.

In regards to your questions on the strut tower location and Alex L' comments. Yokohama M3 is an early PTG car so it uses a BMW Motorsport Group A/N chassis. So the strut tower is actually in the stock location. Comparing it to the photo of your car it looks different, but that is because PTG, cut out the OE sheet metal around the wheel well, and tubbed it using new steel sheets. But if you look at the location of the strut it is the same. Now the later PTG cars, did end up using a copy of the BMW Motorsport Super Touring Car chassis. On those cars, the front end is tubbed, the strut tower is fabricated, raised and moved back.

If you use the orginal BMW Motorsport GTR bodywork, the gap between the tire and the fender looks normal when using any type of race coilover with a normal ammount of lowering (ie not enough to affect geometry). Alex L is correct about the later bodywork. Using the later bodywork, even with the car lowered to a point that it does not affect the geometry, you will still have a huge gap between the tire and the fender, giving it the 4x4 look. The original GTR's were bascially widebody Group A cars, so the suspension geometry is close to stock, the only difference being the pickup point for the front lower control arm is moved up to prevent bumpsteer.

[M3 Euro LTW]

I have the last remaining original BMW Motorsports GTR body panels (Picture 1). This was a spare set for John Cecottos ADAC GT championship winning GTR. PTG bought the kit from BMW Motorsports in 1995. They used it on several cars, before using it as a template to make their own bodywork (ie design number 3 shown above) which was about 3" wider than the BMW Motorsport bodywork. When I had PTG build me my original SCCA T2 M3, I found the bodywork sitting behind PTG's building on a pallet. I asked about it and ended up buying it from them. The panels are made out of Kevlar and fiberglass. They are not painted but actually gel coated white (like a boat). Currently the bodywork is gathering dust in my attic... It's too valuable to put on a car (for fear it would get damaged). Eventually I will have to have molds made of it and put copies on my racecar...

As far as strut location, the picture you showed of the Yokohama car is one of the orginal PTG cars which used a BMW Motorsport Group A/N chassis. So the location of the strut tower is stock. The only difference is that PTG, cut all the stock fender well material away, and welded in new sheet metal to "tub" the wheel well for a bigger tire. Later PTG chassis used a set up similar to the BMW Motorsport SuperTouring cars, where the strut tower was completely fabricated so that it's position could be raised and moved.

Super cool trivia! I bow in reverence to first hand knowledge and ownership of said parts!

Location of stock strut tower for ADAC car doesn't necessarily mean that they had a stock strut geometry, or, maybe it does. I don't know the rule set for ADAC. The original GTR cars (what, 2 made?) I believe had stock struts and geometry, hence also, the gap seen, as well as the slight slant to the flares to make it still look ok.

One would need very heavy duty spacers for the tie rods and control arms to drop the car for late fenders, and I'm still not convinced you'll have the geometry right. Start budgeting for crazy offset custom wheels too to fill these kits...I favor the CCW products. Ask for the "Jon Holder" specs.

I had such a spacer made, and blow apart at speed on my car once, not fun. The cutting edge of development can be the bleeding edge too.

[elliott95]

Alex,
I understand all the work involved and the different variables. I also realize your not being rude your just trying to help me. I see a lot of builds that people get started with and never finish but this is something i have been planning for sometime and i do intend to finish it.

Will a new euro motor and carbon air box like the PTG one be in the car by this time next year? Not likely because once again i am a young guy in school but that doesn't mean it wont happen eventually. Projects evolve and change over time and to me that's the fun part. I bought this car having no idea what i was in for and look how far it has already come. PS This is not my first project of this size and intricacy.

Yes, the splitter will be exactly like the Yokohama car because i think i am going to follow that car as a base for the project. The splitter will be very strong, probably 1/2" honey comb core wrapped in unidirectional carbon or woven roving it just depends once i start building it.

As far as the tribute, i will go pretty far. I literally changed all my cage designs to accommodate the PTG style cage already. Will every single nut and bolt match? NO, but i hope that it is hard to identify the original VS my build when i am done.

To be honest no, i would not rather have a euro motor then to have my motor and have my car look like the Yokohama car VS just a stock E36 with a Euro motor. I have been in a few cars with them and i wont say what i thought exactly because it will just spark more debate and lead us off topic but i would not spend the money on one unless it was fully built and over 400HP.

A Long:
I am going to work but i will respond in length to your post later. I just wanted to thank you though for posting your knowledge on the matter and helping me out.

[JCooper]

Alex,
I have been in a few cars with them and i wont say what i thought exactly because it will just spark more debate and lead us off topic but i would not spend the money on one unless it was fully built and over 400HP.

The funny part is I think I know where your going with this! I felt the same way when I hopped in the car I purchased my euro motor from! I needed a replacement motor regardless but now that it's all said and done it's simply a novelty more than anything else!

[MikeLenoch5]

You are one helluva craftsman to be able to make all those parts YOURSELF! You seemed to go for the top-of-the-line parts in every regard, no kidding you had to save money!

If I were you, I would go crazy, and make a CF dashboard and doors! Why not when you have that shop at your disposal?

[jmitro]

To be honest no, i would not rather have a euro motor then to have my motor and have my car look like the Yokohama car VS just a stock E36 with a Euro motor. I have been in a few cars with them and i wont say what i thought exactly because it will just spark more debate and lead us off topic but i would not spend the money on one unless it was fully built and over 400HP.

more debate indeed. I bought a euro motor from Alex with nothing more than a group N software flash and race exhaust, and that motor screamed. In fact it is still running strong after 3 race seasons of monthly race weekends. Thanks Alex

[ALong]

Super cool trivia! I bow in reverence to first hand knowledge and ownership of said parts!

Location of stock strut tower for ADAC car doesn't necessarily mean that they had a stock strut geometry, or, maybe it does. I don't know the rule set for ADAC. The original GTR cars (what, 2 made?) I believe had stock struts and geometry, hence also, the gap seen, as well as the slight slant to the flares to make it still look ok.

One would need very heavy duty spacers for the tie rods and control arms to drop the car for late fenders, and I'm still not convinced you'll have the geometry right. Start budgeting for crazy offset custom wheels too to fill these kits...I favor the CCW products. Ask for the "Jon Holder" specs.

I had such a spacer made, and blow apart at speed on my car once, not fun. The cutting edge of development can be the bleeding edge too.

The ADAC cars had to use stock sheet metal and attachment point for the strut. The lower suspension was the Group A suspension (ie: similar to E30 Group A) with the balljoint location moved on the subframe and rods with spherical bushings instead of the OE control arm. The pictures of the first GTR is actually the one and only "street car" made for homologation purposes, hence the higher ride height. The pictures of the Cecotto car show what the fender gap is when the car is actually at normal "race car" ride height.

As far as I can tell, BMW only built 3 cars total, two racecars ( Cecotto flag car and Nielsen rainbow colored Daloon sponsored car), and one street car. Only thing that is not completly clear is that BMW raced a E36GTR, in motorsports flags at the SPA 24 hr and in Brazil at the Interlagos 1000 in 1994 with Nelson Piquet as one of the drivers. This car is not the Cecotto car, which leads me to believe that they either they built a third Enduro car (as both the ADAC cars were sprint cars), or they rebuilt and repainted the Nielsen Daloon car, into the Enduro car. I suspect the later as both the Cecotto car, and the Piquet car are in the BMW Motorsports collection, but I have never seen photos of the Daloon car since it was raced.

As far as wheels I have to politely disagree. If you are going to do it right, you have to get the BBS magnesium type 28's!

[m3turboptg]

awesome work!!!!!

i have a project sitting in my warehouse for years now, just don't have enough time in a day.

[elliott95]

Hey guys i don't have time to reply in length.

I have been soooooo busy but here are some really fast shots of the cage.

The rear changed design once again and it WILL be done Friday.

This is similar to the final design. There will be straight bars from the top of the main hoop going down through the bulkhead to the rear shock tower though to pass class rules.

[Steve J.]

So you're going the cpillar route - did you talk to the sanctioning bodies and make sure they'll approve it?

I had an e36 wc car from Bell motorsports that has a motorsport replica cage - if you want some pics I can send them over. It was an m3 ltw chassis built for gt that ran in touring. Had some pretty trick stuff integrated into the chassis...some stuff you couldn't see

[Evice]

For more PTG Awesomeness, and #1 Rachel chasis imported to US.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...8203745&type=3

Car has been TCKline Racing restored.