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Thread: Coilovers - Bilstein PSS9 vs. GC Street/School

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by HamsM5 View Post
    Ride height is a priority - I want to lower the front about 1.5-2.0" and the rear I only wanted .5-.75" drop.

    Ride quality is more a priority for me at this point. This car won't see track duty so I don't want to waste time with another ridiculous setup that is too harsh. Like I said- I had the PSS9's on my E39 M5 and the ride was perfection. Just looking to get something similar.

    I was looking at the TCK S/A coilovers but honestly I have such a bad taste in my mouth over the ride of the GC's that the TCK's put fear in me. I was really looking for a progressive setup that would be more DD friendly.

    Like you said; my car is too nice to turn into a rattle trap.

    Chris.
    No question the PSS9 dampers are superior to a Koni.... not even close. The older I get the more I realize that Konis just aren't that great. I will say, though, that TCK's are nice but only with soft rates.... once the rates get stiff their refinement falls off rapidly. My experience relates only to the SA dampers.

    The PSS9 damper feels very refined and rides much smoother, rate for rate. I would agree with JVit27 that the PSS9 rates are too high for a street car, but I'd rather start with the PSS9 setup and experiment with softer springs than start with a Koni-based setup because I know that I will never be satisfied with a Koni.

    Finally, ride harshness is an accumulation of things: tires, bushings, dampers, shock mounts, spring pads, etc. Be sure to run OEM front strut mounts and no poly anywhere for the least amount of harshness. Also - tires make a HUGE difference - buy good ones.
    Last edited by Eric98Sedan; 10-01-2013 at 04:47 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrsmitchell View Post
    Chris do you know what spring rates you have on your GC kit? You could try a softer spring for not too much money, unless you really think the valving is the problem.

    Nice car and nice collection

    375#/430#.

    Originally I had 440#/550# and it was ridiculous. The car's handling was amazing, but it felt so incredibly stiff that it was way too stiff for where I live. I ended going down to the 375/430 and it was certainly better; but it's so freaking stiff still that it makes me not drive the car much anymore. When a modification takes the enjoyment out of the car, it's pretty pointless.

    I believe that I could technically go down to 300# on the front and use the 375#'s that are in the front and move to the rear; but I am not sure it's worth it at this point.

    What I wanted to do is pick up a nicer more compliant, street-friendly coilover setup like the PSS9 and then sell of the GC as a complete kit.

    Chris.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric98Sedan View Post
    No question the PSS9 dampers are superior to a Koni.... not even close. The older I get the more I realize that Konis just aren't that great. I will say, though, that TCK's are nice but only with soft rates.... once the rates get stiff their refinement falls off rapidly. My experience relates only to the SA dampers.

    The PSS9 damper feels very refined and rides much smoother, rate for rate. I would agree with JVit27 that the PSS9 rates are too high for a street car, but I'd rather start with the PSS9 setup and experiment with softer springs than start with a Koni-based setup because I know that I will never be satisfied with a Koni.

    Finally, ride harshness is an accumulation of things: tires, bushings, dampers, shock mounts, spring pads, etc. Be sure to run OEM front strut mounts and no poly anywhere for the least amount of harshness. Also - tires make a HUGE difference - buy good ones.
    When I started my project on this car; I rebuilt the entire suspension. That included new BMW LCA's and tie rods, new wheel bearings all four corners, poly bushings for the lolipops, the trailing arms, subframe and diff. The other bushings on the trailing arm are all new BMW oem. New swaybar links and TMS bars. My wheels and tires are CCW LM20's with new Michelin Super Sports.

    I'm sure that some of the ride harshness is coming from the poly bushings, but really they are only the lolipop's and RTAB's. Everything else is new bmw oem.

    Interesting thoughts on the PSS9's; I will have to investigate further. I've been curious to hear feedback on the KW V2's as they would be similar to the PSS9. Traditionally, KW has provided a very supportive ride.

    I have Ohlins R&T's on my 996TT and they provide an amazing ride. I wish such a setup were offered for the E36...

    Chris.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by HamsM5 View Post
    375#/430#.

    Originally I had 440#/550# and it was ridiculous. The car's handling was amazing, but it felt so incredibly stiff that it was way too stiff for where I live. I ended going down to the 375/430 and it was certainly better; but it's so freaking stiff still that it makes me not drive the car much anymore. When a modification takes the enjoyment out of the car, it's pretty pointless.

    I believe that I could technically go down to 300# on the front and use the 375#'s that are in the front and move to the rear; but I am not sure it's worth it at this point.

    What I wanted to do is pick up a nicer more compliant, street-friendly coilover setup like the PSS9 and then sell of the GC as a complete kit.

    Chris.
    I know "precisely" how you feel. And, after reading closely, it sounds like you have GC's basic "street" coilovers, which are nothing more than standard Koni yellow with coilover hardware slipped around them. This is a truly shitty setup. I tried this kit, with your same 375/430 rates on the heavier E46 M3 and absolutely hated it. Way worse handling than stock and a crappy ride quality - major downgrade in every way.

    I also tried 450/500 rates with TCKs and Vshlag plates on my E36 M3 and hated driving it. Way too stiff, harsh (plates) and the car threw me around... it flat out sucked. I then removed the Vshlag plates and dropped the rates to 300/400 and it was literally a completely different car. Way better ride, way better (stable, calm) handling.

    But today I'd have to go the PSS9 route if I were shopping new coilovers and then re-spring as needed.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric98Sedan View Post
    I know "precisely" how you feel. And, after reading closely, it sounds like you have GC's basic "street" coilovers, which are nothing more than standard Koni yellow with coilover hardware slipped around them. This is a truly shitty setup. I tried this kit, with your same 375/430 rates on the heavier E46 M3 and absolutely hated it. Way worse handling than stock and a crappy ride quality - major downgrade in every way.

    I also tried 450/500 rates with TCKs and Vshlag plates on my E36 M3 and hated driving it. Way too stiff, harsh (plates) and the car threw me around... it flat out sucked. I then removed the Vshlag plates and dropped the rates to 300/400 and it was literally a completely different car. Way better ride, way better (stable, calm) handling.

    But today I'd have to go the PSS9 route if I were shopping new coilovers and then re-spring as needed.

    I did their Street/School Hybrid setup: http://www.ground-control-store.com/.../II=828/CA=247

    Nice setup but man.... It's killing me. As far as handling and stability are concerned; it is really amazing. However, I attribute that more to the shop who aligned and corner-balanced my car.

    I think overall I just picked too aggressive of a setup for my car than what I actually ended needing. Time to get something in between this and just a spring/shock combo.


    Secondly.... Curious; why did get rid of the camber plates? Did you just put OEM plates on instead?

    Chris.
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  5. #55
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    Okay, that's GC's good mid-level kit, better than I thought, but still an aggressive setup. Aside from the spring/shocks, you've got two things hurting you:

    1. Camber plates (any plate with a bearing is going to be harsh)
    2. Poly Fcabs (anyone who says these aren't harsh is in denial, or, has a high tolerance for NVH)

    Trust me, you replace these two items with OEM parts and the car will be MUCH more pleasant.

    I just "tried" AKG's 95A (their softest) Fcabs on my 1995 M3 and took them out after 3 miles..... yes, 3 miles. Too harsh, too stiff, zero performance benefit.

    Edit - I also think you want to lower the car more than you can whilst retaining decent ride and handling. If you want to go low you've got to go stiff.... no two ways about it. A PSS9 setup will go like 1.5" max front drop with OEM front strut mounts but won't handle well at that ride height unless you crank up the dampers = stiff ride. A TCK 300/400 setup will go only <1" max front drop with OEM plates.... just so you know.

    I think you will find the best overall handling and ride quality at no more than ~1" front drop.
    Last edited by Eric98Sedan; 10-01-2013 at 05:36 PM.

  6. #56
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    Are people using pss9's strictly for aggressive street/ mountain fun and daily driving? I find my bilsteins to be on point for the road and especially around the bay area. I dont track my car but I like the spirited driving around the redwoods we have. The pss9 set up is pretty aggressive at full damper (setting 1) and im on 5 right now as 3-4 was too harsh when I tested it.

    Minimal body roll, great progressives for street setup but wouldn't mind a linear spring in the future. I dont see any flaws with my setup yet besides needing new bearings and othee oe parts to replace.

    Great ride height and materials. So much more to say but people can just ask. I switched from monroe to pss9.

  7. #57
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    HamsM5, you should really drive my car. EricSMG and JVit can tell you that the three of us have tried just about everything under the sun. Trying to find the perfect E36 street suspension. I've gone through koni/eibachs, KW V3's, TCK 300/400, MCS 300/400, and now back to koni/oe sports. I have stock strut bearings(no camber plate) and rubber bushings throughout the car. I think its what you're looking for, minus the ride height. That is where you're going to lose every time trying to lower the front 1.5"-2".

    Your comment of "my car is too nice to turn into a rattle trap" says it all. Exactly how I felt. I rebuilt my full suspension only to ruin my car using stiff spring rates or track spec dampers.
    Sean

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by HamsM5 View Post
    Ride height is a priority - I want to lower the front about 1.5-2.0" and the rear I only wanted .5-.75" drop.

    Ride quality is more a priority for me at this point. This car won't see track duty so I don't want to waste time with another ridiculous setup that is too harsh. Like I said- I had the PSS9's on my E39 M5 and the ride was perfection. Just looking to get something similar.

    I was looking at the TCK S/A coilovers but honestly I have such a bad taste in my mouth over the ride of the GC's that the TCK's put fear in me. I was really looking for a progressive setup that would be more DD friendly.

    Like you said; my car is too nice to turn into a rattle trap.

    Chris.
    Was hoping you wouldn't say that lol. Getting the nicest ride height has been the #1 cause for me, SG, and Eric spending so much money on various setups!

    I have owned the same GC setup as you and can honestly say TCK rides worlds better. While it is still a Koni, the low pressure twin-tube design helps make the car feel like it is bridging the gap of compromise between comfort and sport. High-pressure monotubes (ie Bilstein) will have an inherently harsher intial bump. That being said though, the PSS9 damper is pretty awesome at controlling this and providing such a wide range of adjustability. I had them on my E46 M3 and loved them. The spring rates provided in the E36 kit really handicap it IMO (believe it or not they are in fact higher than the E46 kit). I like that Bilstein offers a lifetime warranty too... if you are burned on Konis then i'd say PSS9 is literally your only option to meet all of the criteria.

    **IMO** a progressive setup is only good when the rates are low or similar to stock. Once you start lowering the car, you have to stiffen it up as mentioned above and 'stiff' progressive springs are like all-season tires: jack of all trades but master of none. The rates in the PSS9 kit make the car pogo a bit. When comparing lbs/inch on a graph you will see the progressive springs actually end up being noticeably stiffer overall than a softer set of 300/400 linear springs so there is no point. These cars are pretty sensitive to ride height and spring rate so it's important to picky guys like us to really get it right, because it can mean the difference between loving the car and hating it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HamsM5 View Post

    I have Ohlins R&T's on my 996TT and they provide an amazing ride. I wish such a setup were offered for the E36...
    I actually spoke to someone at Ohlins earlier this year and was told they were considering doing a limited run of the R&T for E36, but have not had any further updates.
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    This is the part I don't understand. I've only been hanging around here for about a year, but in my research the PSS9s are known for having a harsh ride (especially harsh on initial bump like jvit27 said). If the GCs are too harsh I really don't think the PSS9s are the answer - what am I missing? I'm in the market for coilovers and I'd already discounted the PSS9s due to threads here (admitedly never saw this one) so I'm geniuinely curious.

    I have KW V1 coilovers on my E91 and I really like them for the street. I want something more agressive for the E36 though.

  10. #60
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    Bilstein should come up with a new single adjustable and get rid of the PSS9... they have a single adjuster shaft 'MDS', like the one used in their Clubsport, just single adjustment only.

    It'd be nice...
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrsmitchell View Post
    This is the part I don't understand. I've only been hanging around here for about a year, but in my research the PSS9s are known for having a harsh ride (especially harsh on initial bump like jvit27 said). If the GCs are too harsh I really don't think the PSS9s are the answer - what am I missing? I'm in the market for coilovers and I'd already discounted the PSS9s due to threads here (admitedly never saw this one) so I'm geniuinely curious.

    I have KW V1 coilovers on my E91 and I really like them for the street. I want something more agressive for the E36 though.
    First, there is no *perfect* suspension... there's always a compromise.

    Second, while the PSS9 damper may be firmer than a Koni, it's got a lot more finesse and refinement. It is possible to be both stiffer and more compliant. The Koni is a good value - it's durable, sporty, adjustable and cheap - it slows the wheel/chassis motion satisfactorily. The Bilstein is the next level and provides, in my opinion, a better platform from which to fine tune. On full soft, the PSS9 is quite docile, but too soft to control the stiff springs. This is why some of us mention a softer spring setup. I ran the PSS9s on my E46 M3 and was amazed with them..... only bad thing were the rear springs... too stiff/progressive, wanted to launch the car to the moon over large high speed crests.

    As stated, the TCKs are quite nice. I think for a TCK to be "on par" with the PSS9, at least in terms of adjustability, you would need the DA setup. But even so, I'd wholeheartedly recommend to anyone the TCK SA setup with your choice of springs if that's the way they were leaning..... but I'd urge them to go with much softer spring rates than they might normally choose if this were a street car.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by propcar View Post
    Bilstein should come up with a new single adjustable and get rid of the PSS9... they have a single adjuster shaft 'MDS', like the one used in their Clubsport, just single adjustment only.

    It'd be nice...
    I don't know... I don't like single adjustable shocks. I want a true DA, or, comp/rebound tied together like the JRZ, PSS9/10 or TRMs.

    Edit - I would consider the TRMs since, in my mind, they're very similar to the PSS9, only with linear springs and the best part, adjustable length. But there's no way I'd run their rates I mean sure, I'd try them, but it seems impossible that I'd like them for even 5 minutes... could be wrong though!

    These threads are always fun
    Last edited by Eric98Sedan; 10-01-2013 at 10:53 PM.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric98Sedan View Post




    I don't know... I don't like single adjustable shocks. I want a true DA, or, comp/rebound tied together like the JRZ, PSS9/10 or TRMs.

    Edit - I would consider the TRMs since, in my mind, they're very similar to the PSS9, only with linear springs and the best part, adjustable length. But there's no way I'd run their rates I mean sure, I'd try them, but it seems impossible that I'd like them for even 5 minutes... could be wrong though!

    These threads are always fun

    Agreed. I think being able to adjust both if the ratio is appropriate, is better than just one.

    Softest I've heard somebody run the TRM's is 450f/600r... I believe I read somewhere TRM stating that anything lower would be overdamped for the valving.

    TRM's are more like GroupN than PSS9, but probably better in some ways than both.
    Last edited by propcar; 10-01-2013 at 11:16 PM.
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    I hate this thread so much. Everytime I think I've decided on a coilover, I come back and read this thread and change my mind. Car currently rides on a Tein setup that I'm not a fan of. Rates are 503 up front and 530 in the rear. Im between the PSS and GC Hybrid setup. I looked at TRM but they still dont have any of the e36 setups in stock.
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    One solution I don't see mentioned too often and may be better than PSS? Is the H&R Street performance coilover...

    They use Bilstein dampers valved to 'their spec'... so maybe descent? Non adjustable dampers though.

    http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/s...9&autoModClar=
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    I like my KW V3, street ride is really nice on KW recommended settings.
    Last year I did the bmw cca-car control clinic,(first time I pushed my car in in 8 years of ownership) all my instructors and myself were impressed on how well and compose my car felt.
    Can't wait to take it to Laguna Seca or Thunderhill next year
    Last edited by Saulinho; 10-02-2013 at 11:33 PM.

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    I would like to swap my H&R coilovers for H&R Sport springs and Koni Sports.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saulinho View Post
    I like my KW V3, street ride is really nice on KW recommended settings.
    Last year I did the bmw cca-car control clinic,(first time I pushed my car in in 8 years of ownership) all my instructors and myself were impressed on how well and compose my car felt.
    Can't wait to take it to Laguna Seca or Thunderhill next year
    From everything I've read. The V3 is good.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36forever View Post
    qft
    +1
    id say GC FTW...dont take my word for it.... go to your local track...see what the majority are running.... i think GC is great bang for your buck; and parts availability; etc....
    Last edited by rob22sf; 10-05-2013 at 04:38 PM.
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob22sf View Post
    +1
    id say GC FTW...dont take my word for it.... go to your local track...see what the majority are running.... i think GC is great bang for your buck; and parts availability; etc....
    GC is decent but of the Konis I prefer TCK. My TCK setup with 550/650 and Vorshlag camber plates rides better than my friend's GC 450/550 with GC hybrid camber plates. I don't know which model of the GC coilovers he has, # of miles on the setup, or his damping settings, though, so a lot of confounding variables there. That said, my old AST4100s damped small bumps/potholes better than both the TCK or GC, though the ASTs were a lot worse over large potholes.

    I honestly think all 3 ride decently, with the GC being notably worse than the TCK/AST which are pretty close. Yes, even on 550/650 springs. It passes the girlfriend test just fine, and I do drive through some pretty crappy city roads with some regularity. This is with ~12.5" front and ~11.5" rear ride heights. Is it worse than the stock setup? Of course. But to me, the ride is more than acceptable on all 3 coilovers and I'm autocrossing/tracking regularly enough to warrant the setup. I actually wouldn't mind the 600/750 setup, not sure if the TCKs would handle them without a revalve though.
    Last edited by ThreeD; 10-05-2013 at 06:27 PM.
    -Chris

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    Chris - more on the ASTs, please. They were smoother over small stuff? As in, the chassis was less busy? And harsher over larger bumps? Did they bottom easily? Was it because of your ride height, perhaps?

    I've heard this about ASTs... wondering how they'd be with a super soft spring set like 300/400. Perhaps overdamped.
    Last edited by Eric98Sedan; 10-06-2013 at 10:41 AM.

  21. #71
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    +1 to your posts in this thread eric98sedan.

    I would say for people who want a super soft street car, run factory suspension.

    For people who really want performance, do make the effort to catch a ride / drive in a car with trms. You may be very satisfied with their spring rates right out of the box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric98Sedan View Post
    Chris - more on the ASTs, please. They were smoother over small stuff? As in, the chassis was less busy? And harsher over larger bumps? Did they bottom easily? Was it because of your ride height, perhaps?

    I've heard this about ASTs... wondering how they'd be with a super soft spring set like 300/400. Perhaps overdamped.
    When I said they were smoother what I meant was the chassis was less upset by small bumps I.e. it absorbed the impact with minimal ride jarring.

    My ride height was lower with the ASTs then with my current TCK setup. Something like 12.25"F / 11-11.25"R. I don't think the worse ride quality over large disturbances was due to the ride height. It handled bumps well but not potholes and the front struts do not have a lot of droop travel. This leads me to believe that on larger potholes and bumps I was running out of droop travel causing the harsh response, something a higher ride height would have made worse.

    I really preferred the AST adjuster knob to the Koni based knobs and on the AST setup the adjustments were very apparent, even just 1 click.

    I think a 300/400 setup would work fine with AST. Maybe. I ran a street setting of around 1/2-2/3 stiffness of rebound settings in order to damp the 550/650 properly. But knowing your experience with TCK and MCS(? Or was that SG_M3) I think the ride with ASTs would not suit your style.

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  23. #73
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    Very interesting about the droop - makes perfect sense and is in line with what I've read about the ASTs. Better damping than a Koni but you're forced to run a low ride height with minimal droop = not well suited to the street. That was SG with the MCS' and Jvit with the JRZs. All three of us are on the same hunt - the ultimate street setup. None of us has found it yet.
    Last edited by Eric98Sedan; 10-06-2013 at 06:03 PM.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric98Sedan View Post
    Very interesting about the droop - makes perfect sense and is in line with what I've read about the ASTs. Better damping than a Koni but you're forced to run a low ride height with minimal droop = not well suited to the street. That was SG with the MCS' and Jvit with the JRZs. All three of us are on the same hunt - the ultimate street setup. None of us has found it yet.
    Yes, even with my low ride height (I've been down to 12"/11" at times), I never found they had enough droop to comfortably absorb larger potholes and impacts. But the way they handled smaller imperfections was impressive, and I really enjoyed their on-track & autocross performance. I actually never really had trouble with scraping or ground clearance. Surprising, I know. And I was not living in an area with nice roads, either.

    When you were running TCKs, what strut mounts were you running? Is it possible to use them with linear 300# springs and stock style strut mounts for some sort of compromise?

    If 300#/400# TCK/MCS on stock style strut mounts are too harsh, and the ride height/performance benefit isn't worth it to you, unfortunately I'm at a loss for another option
    Last edited by ThreeD; 10-06-2013 at 06:40 PM.
    -Chris

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    My Cars
    1995 AW M3
    TCKs come out of the box able to bolt in to an otherwise stock car, meaning OEM upper front strut mounts. To do this they use a special upper spring perch. I've run this setup on two E36s, worked well. It's not that they were harsh.... but rather unimpressive. They kicked the car around too much over medium bumps, which the street is full of. The car felt busy and unrefined, particularly dropping off a large ridge. And, I never really like the compression valving.... just never felt quite right.

    I'd like to try their DA setup but it's spendy at $2600.... for a Koni.

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