Coilovers - Bilstein PSS9 vs. GC Street/School

[H3LLROT]

Hello everyone, I hope you all had a wonderful holiday season!

I am finally getting close to purchasing a set of coilovers for my M3. Lately, I have been searching and reading numerous amounts of information online about which coilovers are best for our cars. Unfortunately, there is so much information that it has really just become overwhelming. Also, since I believe that companies improve on their products over time, some of the information I found seem to be outdated now (I’m not sure if that matters). Nonetheless, I would like up-to-date info you guys might have.

I have come down to 2 main choices; the Bilstein PSS9 Coilover Kit or the Ground Control Street/School Hybrid Complete Coilover Kit. I am thinking about going with Vorshlag Camber Plates if I decide to go with the PSS9s.


Issues I am concerned about:

1. I’ve read about the issues of popping/noises with the GCs and their camber plates. Although, Hellabad claims that if everything is installed correctly, you won’t hear a peep out of their STREET kits. [I have read the disclaimer on Ground Control’s website that RACE camber plates WILL MAKE NOISE.]

My question is: will their HYBRID camber plates produce any annoying noises? Do you have personal experience with these specific camber plates?

2. Since PSS9 springs are non-changeable (assuming no modifications are done), some people have claimed this is as an issue and that the PSS9s are “poorly” valved, as opposed to the GCs where they are valved according to specific spring rates, and therefore a “better” ride.

My question is: what is a “better” ride? Is it just Handling? Or is it Smoother? Comfortable?

3. Spring Rates:

• PSS9s – Front: 470 Rear: 685

• GCs – I want Front: 525 Rear: 650

My car, although barely driven, is still mostly driven on the streets. However, I would like to get into some HPDEs when I get a chance sometime in the future. I’d also like to track it some day, but it will just most likely be for fun and not as competitive. I’m not gonna lie, another reason I have chosen these 2 kits is for their high spring rates. I like wheels and some wheels with low offsets need high spring rates to have a decent sized tire and not rub. I want the car to look nice with a subtle drop, but still be fully functional. And no, I won’t put 215s on my rear wheels and have ridiculous camber, promise!

My question is: out of the box with these spring rates, which kit would be better and more comfortable when it gets a little rough on the streets? (I am set on these spring rates for now.)

I know ASTs are another option, but I don’t see why I should push out that much more money for a car that will rarely see the track. I’ve learned that monotube designs are better than twin tube designs, but I can’t justify spending a couple hundred more for it. I’d rather spend that couple hundred dollars on something else for the M3. Maybe you can convince me? I thought about holding out for a nice used set, but I don't want warranty issues.


(FYI: If you tell me to just get some Racelands or a spring and shock combo, I will just ignore it.)

Hoping that you read my entire post, I look forward to reading your input. Also, if there is anything I should consider before making my choice, please let me know. Thanks a lot and take care!

[saint166]

here is the coilover i would buy for a great street setup and a decent price . german made coilovers .http://www.coolcarpartsonline.com/co...d-coilover-kit

[MThrizze]

I would look into BC racing coilovers, the quality is surprising as for the money.. I was actually deciding between those two as well before i rode in a car with BC's...however to answer your question i think it is crucial to have dampening adjustment and the ability to get whatever rates you want so that the car drives how you want it to and not " o well this is how these are and thats it"

[Mad Dog 20/20]

I've had both. Both are fine products.

For a street-oriented car, I'd go PSS9.

For a track-oriented car, I'd go PSS9 (w/ linear springs).

The PSS9 is simply a higher quality damper with a much greater range of adjustment (adjusts both comp and reb simultaneously through a wide range, whereas GC/koni is reb only through a small range). This allows for the use of higher rate springs if you should ever get serious about tracking the car. Bilsteins are also durable. 100k mile lifespan is typical. Konis are typically noticeably on their way out by 20k and junk by 40k.

Out of the box, the PSS9 is more street-oriented due to the progressive springs. Gives a more refined/supple ride at low speeds with less jiggle. These are also MORE than adequate for occasional track day use and can easily be swapped-out to linear springs should the desire ever strike you.

The GC's are more of a budget racer/trackday set-up and deliver solid track performance up to about 550 lb of spring. They are underdamped for anything beyond that.

Vorschlag camber plates would be the way to go.

[Eric98Sedan]

I agree with Maddog 100%. I've also used both kits (on the 46) and the Bilsteins are hands down superior. I'm just not into GC products, although their hybrid plates are pretty nice.

With that said, I've also used TCK SAs, which offer better valving/compliance/ride than the PSS9s. But keep in mind that because they're Koni based your spring rate options will be limited.

Basically - the Koni kits get uncomfortable real quick as the spring rates rise where the Bilsteins keep their composure. If it were my car, mostly street, I'd go TCK with 400/500 rates hands down. If you need more spring, then go PSS9s. Also look into KW V2s... very stout. Finally, keep in mind that the Bilsteins offer a relatively limited drop capacity, which doesn't sound like an issue for you.

[fiveightandten]

In a way, you've answered your own question about the CO's. I wouldn't run spring rates that high on Koni dampers. 500, 525, 550 is about the limit of what they can run with reasonable longevity and performance. I run 400/400 on my TC Kline CO's. The car is very comfortable on the street, and handles great on the autoX course. I'd question why anyone would need to go stiffer for anything but a car that sees the track. Maybe 450 or 500 tops in the rear for a looser back end, but right now I tune that with my sways and i'm happy with it.

PSS9's dampers do have better longevity than Konis, though they have better longevity than pretty much any coilover damper out there. Konis come out on top when compared to the longevity of dampers like AST, and others. So in the great scheme of things, they're perfectly acceptable and when run with a reasonable spring rate, they have longevity similar to OEM dampers.

Vorshlag camber plates are fantastic. They have a wide adjustment range, a low stack height, they don't make any noise, the lower perches are on a bearing to prevent binding when rotating your ride height adjusters or under strut movement, and the perches can be purchased separately if you change spring sizes or struts.

[propcar]

Both are good kits... I like Bilstein more as a company and as a damper, but they never got the E36 application quite right. Although they say that Bilstein made an update to allow more 'internal travel'. I've also heard of people putting higher linear rates on the PSS9's and doing just fine. 'joenationwide' did it on his and he's had some great results. I've read the adjuster isn't very good on it, but haven't seen any shock dynos to show why.

you may also consider TRM coilovers... ease of adjustment of PSS9's yet valved for some 'higher' rates. They are definitely track oriented, but actually don't feel like they have the spring rates they use.

http://www.racersmarket.net/index.ph...mart&Itemid=93

[E36forever]

I also agree with MadDog.

I had PSS9's for a few years and did linear springs half way thru and the ride was great.

I'm now on AST 4100's with similar spring rates yet the ride isn't as good on the street but more noticeably better on the track.

Don't hesitate to get PSS9's, and Vorshlag plates, which are the best.

[jvit27]

• PSS9s – Front: 470 Rear: 685

These rates are incorrect. As per the Bilstein rep I spoke to, they are 455F(linear) and 570R(progressive)

I've had both PSS9 and GC. Of the two, PSS9 all the way. FYI though Bilstein is introducing a new B16 Clubsport coilover for E36's this spring which will have stiffer linear springs and separate rebound/compression adjustments...

[discowagon]

Have you also considered KW?

[KnudsonsM3]

These rates are incorrect. As per the Bilstein rep I spoke to, they are 455F(linear) and 570R(progressive)

I've had both PSS9 and GC. Of the two, PSS9 all the way. FYI though Bilstein is introducing a new B16 Clubsport coilover for E36's this spring which will have stiffer linear springs and separate rebound/compression adjustments...

cost for B16 Clubsport coilover?

[Ape]

I've had both. Both are fine products.

For a street-oriented car, I'd go PSS9.

For a track-oriented car, I'd go PSS9 (w/ linear springs).

The PSS9 is simply a higher quality damper with a much greater range of adjustment (adjusts both comp and reb simultaneously through a wide range, whereas GC/koni is reb only through a small range). This allows for the use of higher rate springs if you should ever get serious about tracking the car. Bilsteins are also durable. 100k mile lifespan is typical. Konis are typically noticeably on their way out by 20k and junk by 40k.

Out of the box, the PSS9 is more street-oriented due to the progressive springs. Gives a more refined/supple ride at low speeds with less jiggle. These are also MORE than adequate for occasional track day use and can easily be swapped-out to linear springs should the desire ever strike you.

The GC's are more of a budget racer/trackday set-up and deliver solid track performance up to about 550 lb of spring. They are underdamped for anything beyond that.

Vorschlag camber plates would be the way to go.

QFT

pretty much sums up everything I was going to say.. im also running PSS9's only gripe for me is I wish they could go a little lower

[Saulinho]

When I was on the market for coilovers, I wanted the best "ride comfort "
because I had a Baby on it's way.
After allot of searching,I went with KWs
ride comfort is excellent and handling too.
I love this set up so far.

[propcar]

These rates are incorrect. As per the Bilstein rep I spoke to, they are 455F(linear) and 570R(progressive)

I've had both PSS9 and GC. Of the two, PSS9 all the way. FYI though Bilstein is introducing a new B16 Clubsport coilover for E36's this spring which will have stiffer linear springs and separate rebound/compression adjustments...

Wait... what?! Is it going to use this adjuster?

http://www.stangtv.com/news/pri-2010...e-shock-shaft/

Just went on Bilstein's german website, the Clubsport coilover (CSC B16), is listed as coming just as Jvit said, Spring 2012

No pricing information has been released yet. However, I wouldn't be surprised if these come in on the range of $2500-$3000.

http://www.bilstein.de/en-uk/product...clubsport.html

Looks like a true 2-way coilover. I wonder if they'll be equipping it with those helper springs as usually those just make it so there's less space in the wheel well.

[ame]http://youtu.be/bEXZTTyn1XI[/ame]

[techno550]

the new bilstein clubsports are targeted at the JRZ market. The rep I spoke with at PRI said likely double the price point of the PSS offerings, but uses some fantastic hand me downs from the motorsport dampers. Should be a fantastic solution for an extremely robust damper with some really good engineering behind it.

I've never been happy with the street car koni offerings. Its astounding how strongly split that seems to be though. Some hate bilstein and love koni, some are exactly the opposite. I have always been much more in favor of bilsteins offerings and engineering principles.

[E36forever]

Only thing I won't like about the new Club level is if the adjustments are at the bottom vs. top. IF what I just saw is correct.

[propcar]

the new bilstein clubsports are targeted at the JRZ market.

Probably more of a $3000 - $4000 price range I'd guess then. I suppose it's nice to have a couple of options in that range. Hope it delivers.

[Eric98Sedan]

QFT

pretty much sums up everything I was going to say.. im also running PSS9's only gripe for me is I wish they could go a little lower

Yep, my two gripes are:

1. They really work best with a drop < 1". Any more and you're looking at very little bump travel and better crank up the valving.
2. The internal bumpstops are too stiff. I prefer the more progressive "hit" of external foam bumps.

But overall they're a fantastic damper with great valving.

the new bilstein clubsports are targeted at the JRZ market. The rep I spoke with at PRI said likely double the price point of the PSS offerings, but uses some fantastic hand me downs from the motorsport dampers. Should be a fantastic solution for an extremely robust damper with some really good engineering behind it.

I've never been happy with the street car koni offerings. Its astounding how strongly split that seems to be though. Some hate bilstein and love koni, some are exactly the opposite. I have always been much more in favor of bilsteins offerings and engineering principles.

Good post. I don't think anyone could actually hate the PSS9/10 systems... they're just too good. What people hate are the Billy Sports because of their ultra stiff valving. They feel, to me, like PSS9s cranked to full stiff.

[Mad Dog 20/20]

They really work best with a drop < 1".


But overall they're a fantastic damper with great valving.

It's important to note that because of the reduced stack height of the vorachlag plates, the effective drop (for the front, anyway) can be more like 2+". My PSS9's are about as high as they should go and I'm still ridin quite low due to the vorshlag plates.

Good post. I don't think anyone could actually hate the PSS9/10 systems... they're just too good. What people hate are the Billy Sports because of their ultra stiff valving. They feel, to me, like PSS9s cranked to full stiff.

Yep. There has been a lot of general negativity among 36M3 folks about Bilsteins over the years because the Bilstein Sport offering was never quite right for this car, and that genearal conception has spilled over into the PSS9 line, in which case it is a MISconception.

I used to have Konis on my cars, but have swapped them all out for Bilsteins over the years - even my 4x4. Excellent product and generally better than koni.

[modernbeat]

Before you get too far, add up what the PSS9 shocks, additional linear springs, rear height adjusters and plates cost. Then get on the Vorshlag site and configure a set of 4100s with discounted springs and discounted camber plates cost and see if the difference is enough to put up with the mix-and-match setup vs the full-system approach.

Also, if you are afraid of being too low with no droop, Vorshlag can configure their plates for most struts to give them a little more droop or more height (not both) than their standard setting.

[joenationwide]

+1 on all the Bilstein PSS9 love.

Out of the box they are OK, but with custom spring rates they are one of the best values for a track setup. Not so bad on street, just a little harsher than Konis. My E46M3 has PSS9s with like 70k miles on them and they are going strong.

[pbonsalb]

I have run TCK SA with 450/500 springs and Vorshlag plates for 3.5 years and like them. My car is a street car. Have not tried AST or PSS. Have driven GC Track/School with 500/550 springs and it felt similar to my TCK.

Make sure all bushings, mounts, links and ball joints are in good shape before increasing the spring rates and stiffening the shocks. Many people seem to think the suspension consists only of shocks and springs.

[GTRSv]

http://www.bilstein.de/en-uk/product...clubsport.html

Damn

[E36forever]

make sure all bushings, mounts, links and ball joints are in good shape before increasing the spring rates and stiffening the shocks. Many people seem to think the suspension consists only of shocks and springs.

qft

[techno550]

Make sure all bushings, mounts, links and ball joints are in good shape before increasing the spring rates and stiffening the shocks. Many people seem to think the suspension consists only of shocks and springs.

Extremely true. Don't forget the little details.

As an unrelated side note, I'm also curious as to how so many are so undecided on which suspension to get, but very decided on the spring rates to use.