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Thread: Teves Mk 60 as stand alone ABS

  1. #1
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    Teves Mk 60 as stand alone ABS

    Have any of you installed the Teves MK60 (late model E46 M3 ABS) as a stand alone unit in your race cars?

    If so any advice, or pics of your install you would be willing to share?
    Looking for ideas, hints or any pitfalls, etc.
    Very little information exists online.
    I'm having trouble finding a service manual in english to download.

    If you dont want to post pics or insight you could email to me at jimmypet at mac dot com

    I will keep all replys sent via email 100% confidential.

    Thanks in advance if anyone is wiling to share.
    Cheers
    jimmy
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
    04 Ford F350 - V10
    06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG

  2. #2
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    The only real issue is converting the E30 Mag Wheel Speed Sensors to Hall output.

    Other than that you will need a standalone harness similar to the one Turner sells.

    BTW - Did you get a Teves unit out of a ZCP E46 M3?

  3. #3
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    Hey Mike, Thanks.
    The current assembly I have is out of a US model low mile 2004 M3 wreck.
    The thinking being that all the pumps / brains are physically the same, that at a later date if a Comp package / CSL or Motorsport pump comes available then its simply a pump swap.
    I'll already have all the wiring and plumbing done.

    I'm planning on using E46 wheel sensors adapted to the E30 by help by another E30 M3 friend who is in the middle of the same project.
    I know the E30 wheel sensors will not work which is a shame,,, but technology marches on haha. Would have been awesome if the physical senders would have worked via adaption wiring.

    I'm covered on the stand alone harness.
    I'm just about to mount the pump and start measuring the lines and the wheel speed senders.

    I was mainly looking for ideas of how people may have mounted theirs, mounting locations, methods etc.
    Sometimes I look at a project in one way and see someone else's method to the same project and its completely different and wonder why I didnt think of it that way.

    Currently about to fabricate mounting for passenger seat or passenger footwell area.
    I'm debating if it should be open or enclosed, rigid or floating on rubber mounts.
    Those kind of things.
    Thanks
    jimmy
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
    04 Ford F350 - V10
    06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG

  4. #4
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    Great to Hear.

    How were you able to adapt the E46 sensors? I thought they were too different to integrate. I was planning on using the stock sensors with a Motec Mag to hall converter.

  5. #5
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    Don't mount it rigid. I fabricated a mount with rubber from the hardware store on the "fangs" of the stock mount. When I order some more BMW parts I will order the stock rubber isolator and see if that is better.

    I will mount mine in the passenger footwell, but I have a real nice vertical surface due the the firewall moving that was done last year.
    Last edited by gobuffs; 01-06-2012 at 01:32 PM.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  6. #6
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    Jimmy, is this for the BTCC car? (I love that thing!)

    Please keep us updated on the install, looking at upgrading from the 3 channel to the 4 channel on my Group N E36 M3.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAMCANADIAN View Post
    Great to Hear.

    How were you able to adapt the E46 sensors? I thought they were too different to integrate. I was planning on using the stock sensors with a Motec Mag to hall converter.
    LOL I haven't yet.
    I have a pair of prototype adapters in hand graced to be by my friend to try (which I have not yet).
    Many bridges yet to cross.

    I didnt even know about the Motec piece you mentioned. I may have to look into that if physically adapting the E46 Pieces fails.
    I am literally into the first days of this project after being away for work for the past several months. I had been collecting parts and assembling all the information I could, but now I'm down to doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALong View Post
    Jimmy, is this for the BTCC car? (I love that thing!)

    Please keep us updated on the install, looking at upgrading from the 3 channel to the 4 channel on my Group N E36 M3.
    No its for my silver race car.

    The BTCC car will likely stay firmly planted in 1988 during my stewardship, with the exception of its engine management which I kinda had to change.
    The old system was in DOS and no one would touch it LOL.
    Its now on the same system as my silver car (ViPec V44) which makes stocking spares very easy as both cars are identical in that respect.

    This post has revealed now there are three of us working toward the Teves Mk60 project.
    Last edited by jimmypet; 01-06-2012 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
    04 Ford F350 - V10
    06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    Don't mount it rigid. I fabricated a mount with rubber from the hardware store on the "fangs" of the stock mount. When I order some more BMW parts I will order the stock rubber isolator and see if that is better.

    I will mount mine in the passenger footwell, but I have a real nice vertical surface due the the firewall moving that was done last year.
    Thanks Bruce.
    I was leaning towards floating it with rubber isolators as well since both the stock E30 one as well as the E46 one were iso'd in rubber.
    Seemed like the way to proceed.

    Quote Originally Posted by IAMCANADIAN View Post
    Great to Hear.

    How were you able to adapt the E46 sensors? I thought they were too different to integrate. I was planning on using the stock sensors with a Motec Mag to hall converter.
    Hey Mike,
    Are you certain about them needing Hall signal?
    I just spoke to Alex at Apex for a while about this and he said the MK60 is looking for a mag signal not Hall (because I was looking at the assortment of Hall sensors and adapters on the Motec site) He said its a two wire sender which is Mag.

    Thoughts?

    cheers
    jimmy
    Last edited by jimmypet; 01-06-2012 at 04:01 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
    04 Ford F350 - V10
    06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG

  9. #9
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    Jimmy,
    It is a two wire sensor at each wheel. Whether mag or hall I'm not sure. But, I think a hall would need 3 wires, correct?

    As others have said float it on isolators.

    Given you're starting from scratch, I'd say go as centrally located a possible. I personally would put it in the front portion of the passenger side.....

    ..... but, despite all of my terrible ABS issues, I'm stuck with the original 3 channel set up..... love the prepared rules.... I will be replacing the module, pump, harness yet again.... And this time I'm completely isolating it from EVERYTHING else.

    Are you making your own brake lines from pump to calipers?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrsprt View Post
    Jimmy,
    It is a two wire sensor at each wheel. Whether mag or hall I'm not sure. But, I think a hall would need 3 wires, correct?
    Yeah thats what alex said. I had a long talk with him today and he's going to get my E46 senders and an E30 sender I sent him (on loan from Jack) and re-test them side by side to make certain I cannot use the E30 senders.
    Now that he has a whole MK60 system in hand I'm hoping for a gift / epiphany that I can still use an E30 sender...

    Quote Originally Posted by mtrsprt View Post
    As others have said float it on isolators.
    That was my gut plan, I just wanted to see if anyone had any counter arguments there.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtrsprt View Post
    Given you're starting from scratch, I'd say go as centrally located a possible. I personally would put it in the front portion of the passenger side.....
    Yep, again, that was my gut plan. Isolating it from header heat transfer through the floor is a small consideration, but easy to overcome with some proper planning and the right heat shielding.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtrsprt View Post
    ..... but, despite all of my terrible ABS issues, I'm stuck with the original 3 channel set up..... love the prepared rules.... I will be replacing the module, pump, harness yet again.... And this time I'm completely isolating it from EVERYTHING else.
    As you know I hate rules,,, so thats why I race in a class with two rules.
    N/A engine under 2.5 litres, 4 wheels.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtrsprt View Post
    Are you making your own brake lines from pump to calipers?
    Yes, I have all that covered. The whole system will be stainless -3 like my BTCC car. If I can (more like when) I conquer the wheel speed senders I am all set to go. As I said another friend has graced me with a pair of his prototype E46 / E30 adapters which I will employ, but if Apex can make the E30 senders work, I'd certainly prefer that option.

    I hope to have the pump mounted this weekend, and measurements taken for wheel speed sender wires and plumbing.
    Next week get plumbing order in for build and get the wiring measurements to Apex.

    OT: Hope all is well. Have you decided what to do on your car?
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
    04 Ford F350 - V10
    06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmypet View Post
    LOL I haven't yet.
    The BTCC car will likely stay firmly planted in 1988 during my stewardship, with the exception of its engine management which I kinda had to change.
    The old system was in DOS and no one would touch it LOL.
    Its now on the same system as my silver car (ViPec V44) which makes stocking spares very easy as both cars are identical in that respect.

    This post has revealed now there are three of us working toward the Teves Mk60 project.
    I am curious, management system did the BTCC car orignally have?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALong View Post
    I am curious, management system did the BTCC car orignally have?
    Zytek. Ran on a DOS 3.0 floppy disk.
    Cam sensor was the size of a rocks glass.
    Engine harness was beautiful for it's period.
    All the work was top level just out of date.
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
    04 Ford F350 - V10
    06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG

  13. #13
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    This is pretty interesting - also run an E30 with no ABS.

    I'm curious, do you really find a big need for ABS? Your car is pretty light at 2500 - is spending several thousand dollars on ABS retrofit worth it?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKRBMW View Post
    This is pretty interesting - also run an E30 with no ABS.

    I'm curious, do you really find a big need for ABS? Your car is pretty light at 2500 - is spending several thousand dollars on ABS retrofit worth it?
    It weighs less than 2500 lbs and yes 100% I am a believer that better ABS will make it faster than no ABS.
    The best race drivers on the planet will take really good ABS over no ABS if allowed by rules.

    Sadly, I am not one of the best race drivers on the planet, so I'll take every advantage allowed me...
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
    04 Ford F350 - V10
    06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG

  15. #15
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    Even being careful it is easy to flatspot a tire...even with slicks. I'll say the system will pay for itself quickly if it keeps me from flatspotting tires.
    Last edited by gobuffs; 01-07-2012 at 07:20 AM.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  16. #16
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    I am currently doing the same project to my 79 530, a car thast never had abs at all.
    im curious what you e 30 guys are doing about the different "trigger wheels" I noticed that the e46 cars have a cage /very coarse wheel, while the e30, and e28 cars had a fine tooth deal, Ive been trying to figure out how Im going to get the e46 style trigger wheel on my rear axels

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmypet View Post
    Zytek. Ran on a DOS 3.0 floppy disk.
    Cam sensor was the size of a rocks glass.
    Engine harness was beautiful for it's period.
    All the work was top level just out of date.
    Interesting. I guess I am wondering why it wasn't possible to just wipe the software, update it to windows base and still use the orginal hardware. I have a BMW Motorsports Pi dash in my car. They originally came out around 1992/1993. The hardware is still supported, Pi uses new Windows software for it.

  18. #18
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    E46 330i for example has a plastic ring over the outer joint of the output shaft for the abs sensor signal.It may be relatively easy to remove and retrofit that ring over some old shafts.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALong View Post
    Interesting. I guess I am wondering why it wasn't possible to just wipe the software, update it to windows base and still use the orginal hardware. I have a BMW Motorsports Pi dash in my car. They originally came out around 1992/1993. The hardware is still supported, Pi uses new Windows software for it.
    It may have been "possible" I didnt even look into it.
    It came with one little floppy disk that I'm not sure if it was even readable any more. A friend who looked at it said this thing is in DOS,,, no one is going to touch this.
    I have it all in a box in the basement for Nostalgia's sake.

    It was much faster, cheaper and a path of much lesser resistance to just put something modern into it (again allowing spares redundancy between both my cars), now they are on the same software, I only have to learn one system, etc. I want to keep the car period correct, and preserve it as it raced then, but that was one area I caved fast on.
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
    04 Ford F350 - V10
    06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdigel View Post
    I am currently doing the same project to my 79 530, a car thast never had abs at all.
    im curious what you e 30 guys are doing about the different "trigger wheels" I noticed that the e46 cars have a cage /very coarse wheel, while the e30, and e28 cars had a fine tooth deal, Ive been trying to figure out how Im going to get the e46 style trigger wheel on my rear axels
    The front wheels shouldn't be too bad. You need a 48 tooth wheel. If the hub is the same size as the E28 then you can buy an ABS ring to put on there (E30 M3). You'll have to drill the strut for the ABS sensor.

    The rear will be more difficult as the ring is infrared into thehousing of the half shaft. The half shaft then fits into the trailing arm which has a window for the ABS sensor to read the ring. Have no suggestions on how to do that.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  21. #21
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    How have you chaps got on with this? I'm just on with fitting mk60 to my race car and have learned some things along the way that you haven't yet mentioned so I thought I should share....

    The wheelspeed sensors are variable resistance types, not reluctor or hall. The ones used on the 2003> e46 use the normal toothed wheel so can be used in place of a reluctor or hall. You can easily tell the difference between the sensors as the late ones that we need have blue connectors, not grey.

    The e9x ones use a magetic ribbon ring on the hub so I doubt those would work with a toothed wheel.

    The e46 sensors will almost fit in place of the reluctor types, just the major hole needs enlarging by 1mm, from 17mm to 18 if I remember correctly.


    In respect to your Zytec ECU, they used a very early E-EPROM, a 24-pin device, mounted in a ZIF socket, that can be read and written rather like a regular 2732A EPROM. I had to do one some years ago on ex-Tom Walkinshaw's BTCC championship winning Rover Vitesse (from a year or two before your car). I didn't (dare to) try to erase the original, as device pinouts are not available and it was just easier and safer to replace it with a 2732A instead once the file had been developed.

    To map your car with the Zytec on you would thus have to approach it like you might do remapping a stock road car ECU and use and emulator and appropriate software like winOLS/OLS300 or Race2000/MET-16.

    Read the original device, load the file read from it into the software and load the emulator, map it live on the dyno, save it as a new file, write the new file to a new chip and fit the new chip into your ECU. There aren't any checksum issues with those ECUs.

    The other option would have been the Alpha-N route, either the BMW motorsport option (expensive, difficult to obtain, but authentic) or an aftermarket device such as Maxx Automotive. You would also need to find someone competent to re-map the factory ECU properly. Not to just adjust the maps but also set the headers to suit the different needs of a touring-car spec motor.

    Hope this helps....

  22. #22
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    Ive been trying to figure out how Im going to get the e46 style trigger wheel on my rear axels
    Can't you put a machined wheel on the output stubs on the diff. Then put a bracket on the diff housing itself to hold the sensors. There should be enough play in the axles to allow insertion of a thin wheel.
    I like small engines, so what!

  23. #23
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    warning light trouble

    I assume the warning indicator of the MK60 is a LED, does anybody have any specifications of this lamp?

    I have a LED now, it's lighting up, but to weak light to show, hardly visible at all...

    Or how it's wired? Its a direct +, and a ground connection through the mk60 module, as far as i can see in the wiring diagram, but not giving 12 volts... approx 1 volt...

    Only thing I've left on my swap, except the wheel speed sensors.

    Any ideas?
    Last edited by Rogeren; 08-20-2012 at 02:57 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogeren View Post
    I assume the warning indicator of the MK60 is a LED, does anybody have any specifications of this lamp?

    I have a LED now, it's lighting up, but to weak light to show, hardly visible at all...

    Or how it's wired? Its a direct +, and a ground connection through the mk60 module, as far as i can see in the wiring diagram, but not giving 12 volts... approx 1 volt...

    Only thing I've left on my swap, except the wheel speed sensors.

    Any ideas?
    The ABS warning output pulls the output low when there is an error. You use a resistor and LED tied to 12 V with the wire for the error output on the "ground" end. When the ABS error output goes "low" this causes current to flow through the resistor and the LED causing the LED to light. When the ABS error output is "high" there is no error and your led will be off. Chris
    #175 CM E46 M3
    Former Knee Dragger
    Real name= Chris P. Lewis
    Occupation= Green House Gas Creator, but I planted a GARDEN last year.
    "When you live inside a vacuum, nothing sucks"
    http://flickr.com/photos/8150451@N03...7602830737584/

  25. #25
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    This is tried and working?

    Now, you see, I'm shite reading a description like that, do you have any possibility to draw it up in an easy schematic way?

    Anyway, thank you very much for answer, should be tried!

    Tried this now, but still only a weak light in the led. If i connect it to 12V with the resistor, it lights as i would expect...

    3,2V 30mA LED
    300 Ohms resistor
    9V measured over the plug

    and barely any light at all...
    Last edited by Rogeren; 08-21-2012 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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