Why are people more impressed by a used $6k BMW than a $25k Accord/Camry ??

[OnTheFence]

This is a 2 part thread:

1) I recently bought a 2001 E39 530i 120k for around $6000. Cheap, 10 years old with a ton of miles. Yet, one co-worker saw me pull up in the parking lot and made a minor fuss about me driving such a "nice" car. Meanwhile, my car cost a 1/4 of all the new Fords and Civics around us in the parking lot. Yet, no one makes a fuss over them. What are your thoughts on people's reaction to a used car that's basically the same price as a unremarkable jalopy. What am I missing? Why doesn't everyone buy a used $6,000 BMW instead a new Ford Taurus or Honda Accord for $25,000 ? Is the last laugh going to be the repair bill?

2) Forget comparing it to a new car, I basically paid the same for my BMW as a similarly USED 100k Accord/Camry. Have used BMW prices crashed this low b/c no one wants them? Why? Are Japanese cars now in some "bubble"/ hype phase? Is this part of the situation? Do people just instantly shop in that segment, and rule out any other options b/c of their reputation for being so "bulletproof"? At some point, does it make more sense to buy a used BMW, despite the repair bills? For $6000, I personally am willing to spend some money on 93gas & parts/repairs to drive a car that is much more iconic and performance oriented. And, with an entry price of 1/4 that of a new car, I have lots of funds remaining for future repairs. Or, am I missing something big?

3) Are Japanese cars overhyped for their reliability? I have always had to spend money on repairs, so I've decided I'd rather spend money on a nice car.

Look at these random comments on the overhype of Japanese cars:

I get very irritated when you constantly hear folks on car forums and elsewhere saying "I drove my Honda 240,000 miles and it costed zero for maintenance." They're almost definitely lying through their teeth. The alternative is that they're very knowlegable about cars and do all their own maintenance...

Thank you. I have never owned a Honda or Toyota and get tired of reading things like that and don't believe them or at least don't believe it is typical or average. I don't believe the average Honda or Toyota will go 250,000 or 300,000 miles without repairs. But most do believe it, which is why those makes are so over priced as used cars. A few years ago in looking at used cars it was basically possible top buy two used Ford Tauruses for the price of one Honda Accord of similar age and miles. They may be more "reliable", but the differences just are not great enough to justify that kind of price difference to me.


It would take a bit more than that to demonstrate that one would come out ahead by paying $10,000 for a used Honda vs. $5000 for a used Ford of similar age and miles. That was the sort of thing I was seeing at that time. As a current example, KBB and Edmunds show a price difference of $2500-3500 for a 2006 Civic vs. a 2006 Focus with 75,000 miles. This means even if one had to spend $500 more per year more in repairs on the Ford, it would still take 5-7 years for the Civic to save the differential.

I don't think used Hondas/Toyotas cost more just because of 'proven reliability' (although that has certainly been true in the past.) Like it or not, Hondas and Toyotas have more brand name power than Hyundai or Kia or even Ford, so you'll pay more for that even for a substantively similar product. It's no different than the premium for luxury makes - even though Honda and Toyota themselves aren't exactly 'luxury', they do have real brand-name recognition for historic reliability which comes with some cachet.

I am not bashing Honda or Toyota -- I drive a Honda. But people are simply hyping the reliability of these cars beyond reality. Any machine will need repairs and maintenance as it ages, and that will cost a certain amount of money. Our '04 Honda developed a $2k AC problem this summer / early fall. Sure we had the extended warranty -- everyone told me I was nuts to buy an extended warranty on a "bulletproof" Honda -- but in my experience if you drive a car every day, after 7-10 years things will start to break, even if the car is otherwise cared for so to spend $900 up front to insure myself against the possibility of a major repair seemed sensible to me. Honda and Toyota are all too happy to take advantage of this what I will call extreme reliability myth to charge prices for their new and used cars that are frankly, IMO, far in excess of what they should be. The market is starting to realize this, and this is why you have brands like Ford and Hyundai doing so well.[/quote]

[BoldUlysses]

No matter how much they actually cost, if not completely trashed, BMWs convey the impression their owner has money. Period. In the same way "Kleenex" is synonymous with tissue or "Bandaid" with adhesive bandage, "BMW" = well-off person's car. And people take that common association and match it up with their impression of the owner. It provokes a train of thought, whereas buying an Accord or Camry says absolutely nothing about the owner. Buying one of the Japanese appliances is a mental dead-end for someone to consider.

[kcs]

Great post OnThe Fence. Maybe a somewhat different take on people's reactions, but here's my story:

I bought a 1994 325iC as a first car for my daughter back in June of this year. Paid $2500 for it, dumped another $2500 to make it safe and reliable. The car still has issues (I suspect it's a Katrina car) and I'd like to get rid of it, but my daughter loves the car and insists on keeping it. Anyway, just because I bought my 17 year old daughter a BMW, people seem to think I have a money tree growing in the back yard. I guess the reaction I receive expresses the reputation BMW has amassed over the years; somehow owning a BMW, regardless of its condition, translates into some kind of status symbol.

Funny...looks like BoldUlysses and I posted at the same time, but provided the same basic theory!

[02 330xi 10 128]

I completely agree. People buy new Camry's when they could get a BMW for the same price with 10-20k. What is that to a BMW? And as far as maintenance, my 1994 civic(sold now thank god) and 2003 civic (2003 I maintain for my sister) cost more than my German counterparts. Had a 2003 GLI I drove for a year and half and spent less than my sister with 15k more miles. 2002 BMW 330xi cost less than the 2003 civic with 30k more miles put in same span. And my 1994 Civic with only 117k cost more than triple in mainenance than my 1994 325is has both in 3 months of ownership and my BMW now has 198k. The 2002 I also completely maintain for my mother (she has done everything for me I can maintain her car) and it has 120k. It comes down to ignorance. People that buy the Japanese cars and even domestics are complete idiots to me. 1 you don't save that much money in every experience I've had 2 they don't drive even 1/1000000 than a BMW can or my GLI and it continues to shock me how people just think these things and its your second biggest investment behind a house. As far as my subaru because I know its coming, I bought for 11k with 52k on it. 3 years ago. I'll be selling it next year with a total of 19k in it ok say 20k for everything including maintenance and I'll be getting 25k for it. And guess what I'm buying with that money? E36/46 BMW M3. Or spend 8-20k and get a civic si hahaha

[Tomcat104]

It just comes down to perception which may or may not reflect reality. Like it or not, the vast majority of car buyers just want to get a relatively hassle-free vehicle to get from A to B. The Camry and Accord does the job well in that regard, or at least it's perceived to do the job well. BMWs on the other hand, are seen as performance-orientated status symbols that are good to drive but tend to be more fragile and issue-prone than Toyotas and Hondas. Hence the image sticks.

[kornkid8600]

I don't agree. BMWs are too complicated in too many ways. And they sacrifice quality in a lot of areas too. The entire cooling system is prone to mass failure prematurely and they didn't fix the problem for 20 years. I mean it's really ridiculous. There are a lot of BAD designs that have some how managed to move into each subsequent model. BMW has a strong history of looking the other way. They get sued into forced recalls as well.

Meanwhile the Toyota's we've owned in my family have never needed anything but bare minimum maintenance. Oil, tires, brakes. My mom's current 04 Corolla is at 70k. There has not been one single repair needed yet. While 70k isn't a lot it still hasn't needed anything.

Anyway, no I don't agree that's fair to say Japanese cars are totally and completely bulletproof as everyone perceives. I don't care about them. They are typically boring to drive. You do sacrifice some reliability for a splurge in performance, or more wear in tear on certain items. That should be expected. I just don't agree on the same continuous problems that takes lawsuits and 20 years of complaining to resolve simple issues, which is what keeps happening with other automakers, ESPECIALLY BMW.

Anyway, I'll take the advantage on the lost depreciation on a used luxury car and pay a little bit on repairs than spend more on a brand new economy car that might not need a repair.

[pizzaman09]

No matter how much some of us don't want to believe it, owning a BMW comes with the status symbol. I certainly don't appreciate it at times, it puts me into a crowd of people that I really don't want to be associated with.

On the price point, I believe the incredible prices just has to do with the typical insane depreciation of luxury vehicles. There are always newer and better versions of our BMWs coming out, aside from a select few cases, when ever a new generation of car comes out the older one takes a big depreciation hit.

[pandaboo911]

Some people don't care what their car looks like. These people (even BMW drivers) drive their car for the brand name. Toyota and Honda go together with reliability, BMW and Mercedes with luxury.
Style just isn't at the top of the list. Also they trade their cars in for newer models way before the car is paid off, sure they lose a bit of money each time but in exchange they get a brand new car.

[SilverBeam]

It can be explained in one word: ignorance

People assume they can't afford a BMW and even if they can't, they can't maintain it, so they ironically spend more on a Japanese or American car while being very jealous at anyone in an older luxury vehicle. Two stories for you:

I had my E46 and was looking to sell it. A kid I knew just bought (well, his parents just bought) a new RX8. After he got it he told me, "I really wish I could have bought your BMW, but I couldn't afford it" I asked him, "How much did you get your RX8 for?" He told me around 30, I told him, "dude, I'm selling it for 12,000" and he about died.

College-- I had my Z4. I was taking some natural history course and we had a field trip out in the middle of no where. I by far had the nicest car there. My classmates, while being very nice and respectful, kept talking about how nice my car was and how they wish they could have a car as nice as mine. I asked them, "how much do you think it cost me?" one girl replied, "oh, at LEAST $50,000". I told her, "I paid $24,000 for it two years ago" and she was shocked, I guarantee you that is about what she paid for the Civic she was driving.

[slocar]

I think it has a lot to do with BMW's timeless designs and the quality of interior materials/build quality in general.

I can't tell you how many times I was asked if my 95 318i was 2000 or newer; I was asked by my coworkers constantly how I had money for a BMW, yet little did they know that even after years of modifications and repairs, I had less money in it than they paid for their Civics, Blazers or what have you. I can only imagine what they think now that I have a e46. To an untrained eye, it could easily be mistaken for a brand new BMW.

[wheelwhore]

because a camry is a pos

[OnTheFence]

I think it has a lot to do with BMW's timeless designs and the quality of interior materials/build quality in general.

I can't tell you how many times I was asked if my 95 318i was 2000 or newer; I was asked by my coworkers constantly how I had money for a BMW, yet little did they know that even after years of modifications and repairs, I had less money in it than they paid for their Civics, Blazers or what have you. I can only imagine what they think now that I have a e46. To an untrained eye, it could easily be mistaken for a brand new BMW.

This is certainly a part of it. And, this is one reason I jumped from the Camry camp into BMW. A different co-worker came up to me after work and congratulated me for the "new" car (he witnessed the other co-worker making a scene). To downplay some reality, "Whatever, it's a 10 year old car. I paid $6k for it. It might die tomorrow" He seemed shocked. The initial co-worker is also going to feel silly when she learns she was celebrating a $6000 10 year old car with 120k on the clock.

[Matt Cramer]

It can be explained in one word: ignorance

People assume they can't afford a BMW and even if they can't, they can't maintain it, so they ironically spend more on a Japanese or American car while being very jealous at anyone in an older luxury vehicle.

This - most people aren't car guys. They see a well kept BMW with shiny paint, and think it's close to new, particularly if it's not clattering, smoking, or otherwise sounding worn out. I find that rather amusing. They don't see just how beat up the leather interior is.

BMW parts are more expensive, but my 328 has cost me less to maintain than a Civic from the same timeframe with less miles. Mostly because the Civic appears to have been abused. And the nice deal my wife and I thought we'd found on a Camry turned out to be pretty bad when we found out the previous owner had covered up a blown head gasket with stop leak that blew out about a month after buying it. The Camry wasn't very fault tolerant - having the head gasket blow mean that both the head AND the block were visibly warped when I checked with a ruler. It was cheaper to replace the engine than deal with that. By contrast, when my Dodge Dart had a blown head gasket, I had no problem just unbolting the head and dropping a new gasket on after checking the head for warpage with a ruler and finding none.

Ok, that's a bit off topic, but I'd have to say that the gap in dependability between a BMW and Japanese cars is smaller than the individual variations between cars, in my experience.

[marhot]

This is a 2 part thread:


2) Forget comparing it to a new car, I basically paid the same for my BMW as a similarly USED 100k Accord/Camry. Have used BMW prices crashed this low b/c no one wants them? Why? Are Japanese cars now in some "bubble"/ hype phase? Is this part of the situation?

3) Are Japanese cars overhyped for their reliability? QUOTE]

I just bought a 2005 325i with 102K miles. It was approximately the same price for a Accord or Maxima of the same year. I wanted an 2005 Acura TL, but they were several thousand higher than a 2005 325. Nissan's Maxima is a copy of BMW. My thinking was why buy the copy when you can buy the original?

IMO, yes, the Japanese are overhyped & yes, there is a bubble. Japanese ARE very reliable, but not worth as much as the preimum price now. However, the price issue is due to market demand. The problems in Japan have lead to a decrease in new cars imported this year, which translates to larger demand on used.

Also, Hondas, are especially hot with the tuner aftermarket. ...kids demand them ... again, that translates to higher prices than normal.



Disclaimer: I have had several Nissans & Hondas. My 325i is replacing a 2000 Maxima that I gave to my daughter ... it has 170K miles and is still runs strong. And I currently own a 2003 350Z as my weekend toy ... so I'm big on Jap cars.

[slocar]

^ Sell the 350 and the 325 and buy a M3. The all in one machine.

[Critter7r]

I get surprised reactions all the time on my E46 when I tell people it has 110k miles, it's 7 years old and worth only about $8k.

It was even worse back in '02, I was driving an '87 E30. Had 16" wheels and decent paint with 300k on it. Nobody could believe that it was only worth $1500 tops.

"But it's a BMW, I figured it'd be more expensive", is the most common response.

[OnTheFence]

From my brother:

You may be over analyzing. Could be as simple as BMW just looks nice, Camry/Accord doesnt, hence the compliment? Not everyone may care about the brute numbers behind it all. Also a lot of people don't like buying used, but they cant afford luxury and can only get a new Camry/Accord.

I just bought a 2005 325i with 102K miles. It was approximately the same price for a Accord or Maxima of the same year. I wanted an 2005 Acura TL, but they were several thousand higher than a 2005 325.

IMO, yes, the Japanese are overhyped & yes, there is a bubble. Japanese ARE very reliable, but not worth as much as the preimum price now. However, the price issue is due to market demand.

I am glad I am not the only one who sees it this way. I was seeing people averaging $5k asking for a 1999-2002 Acura 3.2TL's with 125k-175k miles. Any newer puts it in the $10k-$15k ballpark. I was like forget that. I would rather pay a few thousand more for a whole different paradigm of brand. I ended up getting something for $6k b/c these cars are VERy hard to sell used. I keep seeing the same cars being relisted week after week. Also, a used Jap car is more likely to have been neglected than a $50k BMW, for the first 5-10 years of its life.

[pizzaman09]

To an untrained eye, it could easily be mistaken for a brand new BMW.

I get this all the time in my 01 740iL. The car has 83k miles on it. People never believe it is a 10 year old car.

They see a shiny clean BMW and think, wow look at that new BMW, it's sharp! I wish I could have one. If they didn't care about spending $2k per year keeping it tip top, they certainly could have one.

[greenmonster138]

Same kinda crap has happened to me I bought a 2000 323iT with 175k miles for $3400 dollars after I sold my 04 G35 Sedan. The BMW had a few problems when I bought it but the body is in great shape.

Walked into a place for lunch, the kid saw me get out of the BMW. Said to me hey man nice car I wish I could afford a BMW. I asked him what car he drives. He told me a 07 Focus. I said if you want I will gladly trade you straight up. He thought I was crazy. I asked him what year he thought my car was. He said something like a 07-08. I told him it was a 2000. I then asked how many miles he thought it had on it. He said 30k miles. I told him 178k miles. Then I told him I paid $3400 for it a few months ago. Needless to say he thought I was joking with him. He said no way you had to of paid over $20k for it.

Same kinda crap has happened to me at work. A guy at work has a newer Chevy Aveo thing. He said damn you must be making the big bucks. You have a BMW and I drive a crappy Aveo. I told him that his car was worth way more than what mine was. I told him what I paid and again he thought I was joking.

Just like everyone has said its just what people have in their heads that BMWs are rich people's cars. Yes maybe a brand new BMW is but not some 10+ year old one. It is very interesting.

[OnTheFence]

These anecdotes are hilarious, albeit fascinating.

My friend drives a $1500 1994 BMW with 200k miles. Still has a decent body. He gets more compliments than someone driving a brand new $25,000 Honda.

[Saj8986]

I echo virtually all previous posts. Spent $6k to purchase. Another $6k on tranny, suspension, electrical gremlins etc...Looks and runs great....Co-workers are jealous as hell. Picked my boss up from airport and he was delighted to ride around town in luxury. He is well aware of the cost of older BMWs as he drives a 2000 5 series.

[marhot]

Also, a used Jap car is more likely to have been neglected than a $50k BMW, for the first 5-10 years of its life.

Excellent point regarding the maintenance & upkeep. And the level of neglect is even higher for a 7+ year old American made POS. I believe the best maintained vehicles by their owners are; German, Japanese/Korean, American. If you paid $40K+ for a BMW (or really ANY car) you're probably going to invest more time, money, & effort to maintain that vehicle.

IMHO, a typical BMW owner is a car buff. We love automobiles. An automobile (in our case a BMW) is NOT just transportation, it is a machine we enjoy driving. A car is not just a means to get from point "A" to "B" ... we enjoy journey. Our car is an extension of ourselves, not a 'thing' . Our BMW is a statement. It says something about ME. And although I bought my BMW 'used', I can tell from the condition of the car it's original owner felt that way too. So ... buying a 7 year old, 325i with 102K miles was not a problem for me. I am not concerned.

And I have had the same responses as others here, my friends can't believe the age or the mileage of my cars. (and same goes for my Z it's 9 years old and strangers think it's a 'new' car too)

[OnTheFence]

Saj,
Miles/year?
Was the tranny dead when you bought it?
What did it cost to fix the tranny?

[slocar]

IMHO, a typical BMW owner is a car buff.

Not really IMO .... most bmw owners are people who only see the badge. That's why people get the idea that every bmw owner is just a rich snob.

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk

[trive2]

I just turned up to a party of older people the other night and they all came outside and started stroking my 330i. I flat out refused to tell them what I'd paid for it! And how old it was!...

Then I got the dreaded wet door lock problem and all my windows and sunroof opened up. THANK GOD the storm was finished.