e46 ('03) wierd window problem NOT REGULATOR

[happyguy72]

2003 325i 4dr .... (30k miles, lol)

my folks said their front passenger side window stopped going up (but they managed somehow to get it into the up position b/4 it failed completely)...

i dug around, and based on their description decided it was most likely the window regulator... i found a DIY here and broke the door down.

before pulling the regulator, i unplugged the motor and basically inverted the pins via some jumpers, effectively reversing the switch.... and voila... i can make the window go up or down depending upon how i jump the motor.

there are no clicking or grinding sounds and after some dry silicone spray in the tracks, the window moves up and down evenly with regard to speed and motor load.

soooo.... should be the switch then, ... right?

except, when i move the switch in the up motion, i can hear the motor load, but nothing happens... if the switch were bad, i would assume that i should hear nothing when pulling on the 'dead' side of the switch.

to clarify: with the switch and motor hooked up as OEM, i can put the window down by pushing in the switch -- but pulling up, does not put the window up, though i hear the window motor load up like it wants to turn...

when i reverse the motor leads, i can push the switch down, and the window then goes up, and the same thing when i pull up on the switch (motor loads, but nothing.)

anyone have any thoughts?

[thejlevie]

A high resistance in the "up" circuit path would explain this.

[happyguy72]

and thus.... new switch?

i ordered one... we'll see.

i tested the window moving up and down with the driver side window... they both move up and down at the same rate. so the regulator seems fine... motor seems fine...

before i 'lubed' the track with silicon, the window DID move slowly on the way up. perhaps that additional load against the switch burnt out that side of the toggle?

anyway, dealer needs 3 bus. days to get it... plus t-giving, add time for stupid and i'll post an update after it arrives.

thanks for the response!
~hg.

[bmwdirtracer]

I'd have to wonder whether you're seeing exactly what you think you're seeing, swapping wires like that.

Has anyone dropped a soda on the switch panel? That will usually require a thorough cleaning of the switch.

Now, I don't have your wiring diagrams in front of me: but it seems to me that BMW doesn't typically control high-draw circuits with the main hot wire - the computer typically delivers a ground.

But truthfully, on any 4 door E46, if you hear the motor and the window doesn't move, you replace the regulator/ I'd call that well over 99%. I would therefore begin by replacing the regulator without any hesitation or further testing. They are made by a company named "BROSE", which I think must translate as : "Broken Regulators Our Special Enterprise"

And I'd almost certainly return the switch, unopened.

[happyguy72]

hmmm...

you mentioned:

But truthfully, on any 4 door E46, if youhear the motor and the window doesn't move, you replace the regulator

and i agree with this, but herein lies the rub (and the reason i didn't immediately just replace the regulator)... i DONT hear the motor spin... it doesn't turn or do anything when i pull the switch into the up position. (i do hear the motor load slightly, like a solenoid that wants to fire but doesn't have enough juice--a VERY faint humm almost).

so... the reg. motor is connected via 2 wires. in essence all i did was to disconnect that 2wire harness and then use 2 test leads (jumper leads with alligator clips at each end) to manually connect the motor backwards. (this way i can then also quickly connect it back to 'forward' by swapping the leads back over)

Basically, i assumed (as is usually my downfall) the motor to be a typical DC affair, necessitating both hot and ground to function, with the window switch simply moderating polarity to determine the direction of its spin. following this assumption then, i disconnected the wiring harness at the reg. motor and, using the test leads, 'reconnected' it backwards.

basically, the window toggle is like a really fancy three-way dc switch: off is in the middle, 'down' allows, say + - polarity to pass through it (rotating the motor one way), and 'up' allows - + to pass through it (rotating the motor the other way).

so, manually reversing the polarity at the motor is the same as inverting the polarity at the switch (at least as far the motor is concerned).

The point is that, the regulator, at least mechanically, functions just fine in both directions (as does the motor). when connected properly, and pushing the switch down, the window goes down. when reversing the polarity at the motor and then pushing the switch down, the window goes up. regardless of which way i connect polarity to the motor, pulling the switch up does nothing. dead stick.

when i 'raced' both front windows up and down, they move at exactly the same speed in both directions.

given all of that, i am just not able to come to the conclusion that the regulator is faulty. Mechanically, it is doing its job quite well--at least when it gets juice

far be it from my simple mind to question the pros, but what i have found over the last 40 years is that someone must make up the difference b/t "well over 99%" and 100%. somehow, i am typically that .01% statistical anomaly.

i know its not a wiring diagram, but i hope that helps clarify whats going on :/

i guess we'll see. worst case, my folks end up with a new switch AND a new regulator... either way, the repair will be penny's on the dollar as compared to a trip to the dealer.

[bmwdirtracer]

Clean the switch: pull it out, and swish the whole thing around in hot soapy water, vigorously. Then shake it and blow the water out, then liberally spray in every crevice with WD40, and shake/blow it dry.

Easy, free, and worth a try....

[happyguy72]

indeed worth a try...

i went one better and carefully pried the 'sleeve' off that wraps around the switch internals. i scrubbed all the contacts with hot soapy water and a small toothbrush. blasted off the moisture with canned air, hosed the contacts and the harness pins (as well as the harness receiver in the car) with WD and then knocked off the excess with more canned air.

no joy.

it looked clean prior to the cleaning... no obvious spills/corrosion.

stumped.

will wait for my switch to come in ..... and when that doesn't work, i'll be back.

thank you for the suggestions so far,

hg

[dworthy]

The next though that comes to mind is the anti-trap sensor on the window. Check that out to see if it went bad and isn't allowing the window motor to go up since it thinks there is something between the window and the jam.

[happyguy72]

it is a standard 325i 4dr.... the two rear passenger windows will 'auto-down' but not up.... so i'm not sure it is equipped with anti-trap... i know the e46 saloon, coupe and the touring edition came standard with it, but i think you had to check the option box on the regular 4dr...

that said, i'm not familiar with the placement of where the sensors would be .... i'll do some research and check into this further...

thank you for the suggestion and i will post back with results.

hg.

i was WRONG.... the rear windows DO in fact auto up and are anti-trap. (wierd... b/c the other day i tried this and they did not auto up... maybe i just didn't engage the switch far enough).

i have looked at the window frame of the fr pssg window, but do not see any type of 'sensor'.... and after google-ing multiple iterations of anti-trap location, i cant find any diagrams for where it resides.

anyone know off hand?

also... does anyone know how the window switch relays are configured?

for all the other window functions i can hear a nice solid click behind the glove box for both up and down. when i pull up to move the 'offending' window, i get a wimpy tick--its the only one that sounds different from the rest.

please dont tell me the relays are with in the gm5.... that would not make me very happy.

hg

<EDIT> i found the location and configuration here http://www.bmwgm5.com/GM5_FW_Relays.htm

.... of course they are in the gm5.

looks easy enough to tackle....

before i rip it out however, does anyone have any other suggestions?
i wish it were just the regulator, but mechanically the dang thing functions fine... im convinced its not the switch now.... since it was apart already from cleaning, i isolated the ground bars and them manually jumped the hot side to fire the windows up and down. both grounds are solid and pull the same voltage when tested, so the problem is between the switch and the reg motors it seems...

grrrrr.

[happyguy72]

**UPDATE**

just reinstalled the GM5.... it WAS the relay and all is working as it should again.

i wanted to give a HUGE thanks to this board... the community here is fantastic.

and also a HUGE thanks to Scott at bmwgm5.com for taking some time on the phone with me to validate that i wasn't chasing a ghost and to then replace the bad relay on the board with a crazy fast turnaround time.

Totally Thrilled ;p

thanks again to all,
hg>

.

[bmwdirtracer]

I've heard many good things about that Company, and read their literature, and have recommended them to my boss/customers on that basis. Haven't yet had a chance to use their service, but I look forward to it. I have three customers riding around needing them, though, for confirmed lock relay issues - so it won't be long.

And I've added your experience to my mental list, since I've not seen a window relay issue, yet.

[driftE36guy]

I have come to the conclusion that my window motor does not know when to stop pushing the window. The motor will strain and push even after the window is fully closed. I just replaced a mangled regulator that most likely resulted from this problem. I know that the GM5 is supposed to STOP pushing the window as soon as it senses a spike in the current draw of the motor (from hitting the end of its travel). This function is definitely NOT happening as it should be. The motor operates up and down when 12v power is introduced to the leads AND when using the switch. One-touch Down IS working. Motor operates a full 8 seconds in either direction and has NO preset endpoints. Motor seems strong and operates at the correct speed. All parts are BMW OEM. ALL other windows are operating CORRECTLY!!! Is my problem iin the GM5 or is it in the window motor???

[dworthy]

GM-V. Call the guy to confirm for he would be the expert in this area.

[neobimmer]

It's an old thread but it was a new problem for me. Want to say thank you to the OP for documenting this issue and also to save anyone else some time, the relay for the rear window is found WITHIN the General Module 5 (GM5) so don't go trying to find it in your Bentley Manual schematics like I did. Just contact Scott regarding your GM5 and he will diagnose it and repair it as he did for me. His website is still here:

https://www.bmwgm5.com/

[dworthy]

Good to hear!

We hope the threads on here help other fix their cars, for it helps to be able to talk to a tech and explain what you think is wrong.

[neobimmer]

Ok, I jumped the gun. After installing the repaired GM5 the right rear window continues to roll down and stay down when pulling the switch up. Any ideas dworthy?

EDIT: Looks like it is potentially the switch. Second lesson, diagnosis your window issues correctly the first time or you'll be paying twice.

[shadowpuck]

yup, was just going to suggest some switch testing. diagnosing is the hard part - we've all learned that lesson!!

[dworthy]

Which switch are you using to roll the window up/down? If only the front, try the back switch as well to see if it's doing the same thing.

If the back switch works properly, pull and clean the switch up front.

[Ciarmoc]

Same problem, but on the front driver’s window...any luck with finding the problem?

[Louis Fox]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this and hope Im in the right place.
im currently looking at purchasing a BMW X5 2003 model, all In immaculate condition except the current owner said that it was running as good as new just until last week where he noticed something wrong and took it home immediately to which it still is parked in the same place. Owner is selling cheap due to wrecking or for someone to fix as all he has said is "potential head gasket" and doesn't have the time nor money to deal with it. Does anyone have any advice or useful information in regards to replacing BMW X5 head gasket, simplicity & cost. Thanks

[bmwdirtracer]

Welcome to the forum, Louis.

You have done yourself a disservice. You need to start your own thread; you've just tacked onto an 8-year old thread having to do with windows, and completely different cars, too.

Go back to the start page of this General Mechanical forum, and click on "Thread Starter". Tell us the information you already gave, plus what engine the car has, how many miles, etc.

[dworthy]

Same problem, but on the front driver’s window...any luck with finding the problem?

It's hard to say as they never came back to answer. So did you read the thread and do what I suggested? If so, what happened?