Help me find the problem with mixture - inpa live readings

[BaNaN]

Your idle is a bit high. It should be ~600rpm. This could be accounted for with a stuck IAC.

What, ~600rpm only? I took out and cleaned the IAC this morning, it was a little dirty and the part inside was moving freely. There was very litte resistance on the regulator mechanic inside the IAC when I pushed on it with a screwdriver.

After cleaning it the engine was running idle at 800rpm and slowly went down to 750 again.
MAF showing ~13.5kg/hr
Engine load [mg/stroke] ~95
Cylinder 2 & 3 have had high values last times I've checked the roughness. Specially cylinder 3 - it had around 600-1200 today


/Janne

[granlund]

Can you take the spark plugs out and check the color of them. Some might be black from running overall rich and some might be whiter from intake leaks in the manifold runners.

[BaNaN]

btw, anyone know a good site were you can find good oxygen, camshaftsensors & MAFs?

Oxygen
BMW 11781427884 - 990mm SIEMENS oem

MAF
BMW 13621703275 - SIEMENS 5WK9600


Been looking at eaceuroparts and they have good price on lambdas and cmps but MAF was pretty expensive at over $300

Found this oxygen sensor on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/NGK-25013-Oxyg...=5336432695-20
NGK 25013, which I understand is the same as BMW 11781427884?

[BaNaN]

Hello again

I took out all spark plugs today and they were all black/brownish. Swapped the coils on cylinder 2&3 to 5&6 but no real change on the roughness.


I also measured the resistance on pins of the MAF

Pin 1 - 4 = 0.01ohm (the meter I used does not show milliohms)
Pin 2 - 1 = 18.2kohm
Pin 2 - 4 = 18.2kohm
Pin 3 - 1,2 & 4 = 5.56Mohm

Anyone who knows what resistance the Siemens 5wk9600 should show? I've been looking for a datasheet but can't find anything.
Thinking of going to the car slaughterhouse and pick up a used MAF for $76 and 110.000km = 69.000miles?


Edit: www.maf-shop.com had the Siemens 5wk9600 for 200 euros, and there is no VAT charges inside Europe (Cheapest place I have found)

[BaNaN]

Bought a new universal catalytic converter today.
Also ordered 2x oxygen sensors from Mark@EAC


Went to the local used carshop and asked to measure resistance on a used MAF, they said it was ok but they didn't have the part in store.
Went to local BMW dealer and the same story there, no MAF at home.
Anyone here who know what the MAF on their 528i 96-98 shows? 5wk9600 is the model.

Edit:
Installed the new catalytic converter, exhaust gases felt a little hotter and smelled different with the new one. The welding was pretty badly done and we found a little little hole ofc on top of the weldings. But I didn't have time to pull the whole system down again just to fix such a little hole so I just put plastic padding metal something on it.

I've gotten the error code 215 ASC/MSR/EML now a couple of times but I can't find anything about it on the net. Didn't care earlier and just cleared it but now I have to ask.

[BaNaN]

Hi

Car passed emission test today.
Changed the catalytic converter and the guy who did the test had also owned a BMW earlier so he went out on a quick drive on 1-2-3rd gear and really hammered it.
Right after his round he measured:
CO 0,0 (0,5) HC 001 (100)
CO 2500 0,0 (0,3) Lambda 1,00 (0,97-1,03)

Everythings fine, Wohoo! Happy happy day

[Black540Msport]

Congrats on tracking down your issues. I wish I had a 528i so I could measure the resistance for you but alas, I'm a 540i guy.

[KevinMullins]

Car passed emission test today.
Changed the catalytic converter and the guy who did the test had also owned a BMW earlier so he went out on a quick drive on 1-2-3rd gear and really hammered it.

So is that ALL that you changed?
You mentioned ordering O2 sensors, but didn't say if they got put in.

Did all your INPA readings go back to normal? (needed i.s. controller and all that)

[BaNaN]

Hey

That was only with the catalytic converter changed. Still haven't got the O2 sensors yet but I will change them and see how the INPA readings looks after doing so.
The emission test looked really bad for starters. It was after that the technician went on his little drive the values went good.
(If the guy who did the test on the first time had done the same thing the car might have passed right away...)

[KevinMullins]

I was just curious how everything looked in INPA with just the cat change.
I was about to check my cat out on the one car of ours that had similar readings as you were getting, so wanted to know what difference it made on yours when looking at INPA.

[granlund]

So, are you telling us that the car was not properly warmed up on the previous emissions test?

[BaNaN]

No, I did sit in the car with the engine on, idling @ 1500 while waiting the first time.
The first tech who did the measurement also tried to fix the bad values. He did it by sitting in the car 1-2min and rev it around 3-4k rpm to get the values down but it didnt work..
While this other guy took the car out for a spin and probably pushed it even harder then the first one.
AND before the 2nd test I was doing the highway on 3rd gear, got in quite quickly and still the values looked bad.. so I don't know when to decide that the car was properly warm or not.


I can measure the INPA values with the cat only if it interests some of you. I did look at the readings right after I changed it and didn't see any big differance.

/Janne

[granlund]

Oh, that partially explains it then. The cats never properly warmed up.

If I remember correctly, sometime in the late 90's Teknikens Varld did a a winter test of emissions at cold start idle for large cars at -25C (Volvo S70, Saab 9-5, M-B E240, BMW 523 etc.). Both Saab and Volvo achieved commendable results by running a really rich mixture and lighting the cats to go in to closed-loop (O2 sensor adjustment) after a mere 2-3 minutes, the worst of the tested did not go to closed loop even after 30 minutes. The BMW was not one of the better ones.

Before you're doing emissions tests on an older car, you stand a much better chance of passing if you drive the car like you just robbed a bank for five minutes prior to it.

[BaNaN]

Yea, and I thought I did warm it up enough.. There's also the problem with waiting at SBP, what to do then? Often when I got a time there's always atleast 15min of waiting.. Next year I will sit in line and rev 6k rpm before I go in. Thats for sure!

[rf900rkw]

This is what the secondary air injection is all about. Run a rich mixture such that you have excess fuel in the exhaust stream. Then pump fresh air into the exhaust right out of the engine. The resulting blow-torch warms the cats up pretty quickly.

[granlund]

Yea, and I thought I did warm it up enough.. There's also the problem with waiting at SBP, what to do then? Often when I got a time there's always atleast 15min of waiting.. Next year I will sit in line and rev 6k rpm before I go in. Thats for sure!

Doesn't SBP test the emissions after the shake-down drive? Just make sure you warm the car up before waiting in line. The subesequent drive should re-warm the cats pretty quickly.

As the poster above mentioned, the air pump is supposed to feed air into the exhaust to afterburn the rich mixture in order to light up the cats. The valve (mounted at the front end of the exhaust manifold) could be clogged and not open properly. You can unbolt it and clean it out with brake cleaner and also replace the vacuum hose that operates the valve.

[BaNaN]

What what? I've never heard of this valve, do I really have it on my 523i 7/1998?
Gotta search the net now and realoem

Nope, don't fit my car according to realoem: http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...50&hg=11&fg=50

[HenrikD]

Hello. I am experiencing the same problem with my 98 528i (values for MAF and fuel trim in the same range). Did you ever get the values down to something within the allowed range?

/Henrik

[BaNaN]

Hey

No I did not, values are still similar as the readings I had last year.
I did put two new O2 sensors in but they didn't do any change really


I'm suspecting that it is the vanos being old and not adjusting 100% correctly at idle which is screwing up the values
Unfortunately I think the only way to find this out is to do the vanos repair.

/Janne

[gmak]

As rf900rkw pointed out later in time, elsewhere, the range on the load and the "air use of the ICV" are way too small. There will always be an "!" there due to this (possible) error in the INPA files for that model.
After the MAF is removed (as in the OP's second set of charts), the DME goes into open mode and ignores the O2 sensors. This means that there are no adaptations, hence the zeroes for adaptations on the Analog 2 page. It runs using the inputs from the air and temperature side - whether or not this results in lean or rich conditions at the exhaust side.

I am looking for a solution to the running rich (which the negative adaptations before the MAF removal on the Analog 2 charts do indicate) as I implement a preventative maintenance program on my 1998 528i. My suspicion as of this writing is that (if the MAF is good), something is preventing as much air from getting into the intake manifold as would normally get there due to the vacuum created at that particular RPM level (idle) due to the outward movement of exhaust gases. ie exhaust is pushed out by the piston actions and valves opening on that side. something has to come in to replace those exhaust gases (nature abhors a vacuum) and the valves open on the intake side. Gases - mainly air I would imagine, rush in to fill the void generating a reading of air mass at the MAF.

IF THE DME / INJECTORS ARE WORKING PROPERLY, as are the temperature sensors, then something is either preventing some air from getting into the process, or is replacing the air. Air gets in through the ICV and the throttle - so that is one source of possible blockage. If the EVAP vapour purge / release valve is not working properly, it could be allowing too much gas fumes to get into the intake manifold, effectively replacing a like quantity of air. The idea of gas fumes suggests that maybe this would result in a rich condition at the O2 sensors (ie gas fumes + fuel with less air = more hydrocarbons in the exhaust with less air = running rich). This is a hypothesis. Hopefully, as I go through my preventative maintenance program and track each change in INPA, at some point the source of the running rich will be revealed.

Note that I have read (but not confirmed) that leaks in the exhaust OR blocked cats can contribute to a lower vacuum and less air (running rich) in the intake manifold. This is a third area to look at.

In summary, for the running rich condition that the OP documented:

1. ICV and or throttle blockages of some kind;
2. gas vapour purge / release valve (at the front end of the intake manifold) issues
3. Exhaust leaks / cracks, maybe Cat blockages?

Hey

I've just registered to this forum, been reading alot of good guides etc and now I have to start my own thread.
My car didn't go through the yearly Swedish car "test", the air readings was all wrong and now I have around 3 weeks to fix the problem else the car gets banned from the streets.

These are the values from the test they made, values in ( ) is the highest allowed.
CO 0,3 (0,5) HC 199 (100)
CO 2500 0,4 (0,3) Lambda 1,18 (0,97-1,03)

Car does sometimes jump a little while idling, the exhaust does smell strong and I think i can hear a whistling noise under the hood when i rev the engine a little..

Today I cleaned the MAF with CRC MAF cleaner, checked pipes around the intake for leaks, checked the exhaust system for leaks(found 2 small on the rear muffler) and checked the lambdas + cleaned then.
The CCV has been exchanged 10month ago so that one should be working well.

After this procedure the car started pouring out alot of white gas...
After that I took some live readings.


First readings are with MAF connected:
AnalogValues1 - Engine Load !87 Air use idle control valvue !13


AnalogValues2 - The adoptions values are all crazy?


AnalogValues3 -


Engine Roughness






This is values right after with MAF removed:
AnalogValues1 - air intake goes lower


AnalogValues2 - adoption values looks better?


AnalogValues3


Engine Roughness - did not move, probably due to MAF removed




And what I suspect on my own is the following
MAF and Lambdas seems fine, Lambdas are moving between 0.2-5V and MAF voltage changes when I rev the engine. But as I understand they can look alright but still be worn out and give bad signals.
Crankshaft position sensor - could that cause these bad values without an error code present?
I read in another thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1676942 about a leaking vacuum hoose to the fuel rail and I have already checked that one. It's on the back of the M52 engine and it does feel like some small cracks could be there.

What are your suspicions, please help

/Janne

[schiffi]

Hello,
I have also problems with the adaptation (adaptation add ~ -60).

Did you solve the problem?

[gmak]

Hello,
I have also problems with the adaptation (adaptation add ~ -60).

Did you solve the problem?

There are 3 components to running rich: i) air; ii) fuel; and, iii) fire (spark).

The easiest to check first is the fuel. Take the fuel pressure and see if it is too high. If so, the issue may be with your Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) which is either near the fuel rail, or under the car below the driver's seat depending on the year of your car.

[BaNaN]

Hello,
I have also problems with the adaptation (adaptation add ~ -60).

Did you solve the problem?

Not sure.
I Think I found the problem, it was the thermostat which opened to early or the temperature sensor (I changed both at the same time)
I checked the water temperature in the instrument clusters hidden meny and It stayed around 82ºC instead of around 95ºC.
This probably made the control system want to richen the mixture until the engine would reach its correct operating temp.

Well after fixing this and a new catalytic converter, the exhaust values were excellent and the mpg increased a bit.

I have not checked my INPA values after this therefore I'm not sure

[schiffi]

There are 3 components to running rich: i) air; ii) fuel; and, iii) fire (spark).

The easiest to check first is the fuel. Take the fuel pressure and see if it is too high. If so, the issue may be with your Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) which is either near the fuel rail, or under the car below the driver's seat depending on the year of your car.

I have checked nearly everything.

Following parts are new:
-Fuel pressure regulator
-idling valve
-Air flow/mass sensor
-Air temperatur sensor
-Ignition coils + Sparks
-Oxygen sensors
-Injectors
-Air+Fuel filters
-Fuel tank breather valve
-crankcase ventilation
-All sealings/gaskets

Checked catalytic converter, Fuel Pump, brake booster. All ok
Also no leak or something.

Not sure.
I Think I found the problem, it was the thermostat which opened to early or the temperature sensor (I changed both at the same time)
I checked the water temperature in the instrument clusters hidden meny and It stayed around 82ºC instead of around 95ºC.
This probably made the control system want to richen the mixture until the engine would reach its correct operating temp.

Well after fixing this and a new catalytic converter, the exhaust values were excellent and the mpg increased a bit.

I have not checked my INPA values after this therefore I'm not sure

Thermostat is also new.
I have no idea what it could be, it's so annoying...

sry for my bad english.

[ed323i]

Very late reply.. But I think you'd find it interesting to know that you can cure the high negative additive adaption values by checking the vacuum hose between fuel pressure regulator and intake manifold. Replace it. If that doesn't solve it, replace the fuel pressure regulator.. With a leaking vacuum hose, fuel pressure will remain at 3.5 bar at idle, where it should drop to 2.8 to compensate for the high manifold vacuum. If it stays at 3.5 bar, it's running way too rich and the DME will compensate by lowering the additive adaption values a lot to the -35 to -60 range.

Check this thread for a detailed solution:
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...spection/page2