Stiff Member
HA someone agrees with me!
Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?
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haha..naw your good. i was a little fiesty, your right.Originally Posted by Nisanda
Chill pill dude, he was trying to help just take it or leave it thats it, in any case the only viable advice its go practice because whatever they tell you just going to do what you like and everybody likes different.
try not to attack me two.
I apologize to protomor for being rude. i have to remember a lot of ppt will have different opinions on what makes a car faster.lol but at the same time if youve never EXPERIENCED a cross brace, i dont know how u can have such an opinion on it. that still stands. and a skid plate does not improve handling or do anything for the chassis. or at least everyone at our e30 meet last night thought so.
alright so what happened was i had the sways on for a few weeks. then i ordered the brace. put it on and noticed a difference.
I think tho i was geting a bit of scenario 1 and since my brace (NOT PLATE, why do u keep saying plate???) wasnt allowed to sit where it should it may have been throwing things off. It turns out the brace wont fit with the suspension techniques 22mm or the IE 22mm sway. Someone on r3v has it with the IE 25mm bar and he says it fits tho. which i find interesting.
and i agree with piner..i dont think mine needs much chassis bracing. a roll cage will be plenty when i get one
Last edited by ROLLingKING; 10-12-2011 at 02:53 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Stiff Member
I apologize. I keep thinking cross brace and typing skid plate in most instances. I HAVE driven E30s with the race skids cross brace and E36s with the stock cross brace vs without. The 91 E30 vert sitting out of my house felt stiffer than the E30 coupe I drove with the stupid race skid cross brace.
My E30 has had several iterations of chassis stiffness. Biggest one being a roll cage. That change was felt but faintly.
You're telling me, that the picture above does nothing for chassis stiffness? It's a roll cage grade hoop welded to both frame rails that attaches to the same point as the race skids cross brace AND skid plate.
I will agree, the race skids skid plate (not cross brace) does nothing for chassis stiffness. That's because it's flimsy at best.
So you had the cross brace on AND the sway bar? If it hit, then that's why you felt such a huge difference. That bar does articulate and the cross brace could have interfered. Basically making it a sway bar bump stop.
seriously had to edit that like 5 times to remove "skid plate" when I didn't mean it.
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haha. its all good. and that bar coming down looks cool! that thing will tighten things up for sure. but a cross braced e30 coup handling worse than a vert sounds like there was something wrong with the coupe. maybe he was drifting without a rear sway which seems to be popular out this way. i have no clue why tho. never heard of the japanese doing that
ad yea it may have been bump stopping my brace, it was weird. i sold it for a rear strut brace and money. just acquired a free front strut tower brace this weekend also. cant wait to see how that feels
Last edited by ROLLingKING; 10-03-2011 at 05:34 AM.
Stiff Member
Verts are very tight chassis. They have massive amounts of chassis bracing to make up for the fact they don't have a roof. Look at the floor next time you get into a very. Just below the door is a massive secondary reinforcement. Under the car has tons of it too. There's a reason the verts' battery is in the front.
I dropped the rear sway due to the stiff rates. It also helps our rear trailing arm setup. Most japanese drift cars use z link or multi link while E30s are left with less than helpful trailing arms. If you have problems with switch backs, disconnect your rear sway and try again.
I still say 90% of chassis stiffening parts are gimmicks. I have a front strut bar and rear strut bar just lying around because I took them off thanks to it making other things a pain to work on. Noticed no difference.
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you wont notice but is there.
Stiff Member
lol true.
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i guess dude. i mean u make it sound like the car rides the same stock. to be completely honest it seems like u really dont know how to read feedback from a car at all. from what the forum is, "lets talk e30 suspension techniques for drift", you seem to have concluded theres no tuning techniques maybe?
well im wondering what are the advantages of doing e46 control arms. i need new ones and bushings so im trying to do this once. Id like to add more steering angle but im confused as to what the e46 ones actually do. Are tie rod spacers safe for dd'ing. i cant find an install write up
Last edited by ROLLingKING; 10-04-2011 at 03:29 AM.
Drifter
^ the E46 Arms major benefit is they add Track as in make your front track wider giving more clearance for the wheels to turn before they hit the frame. You can achieve the same thing with some MASSIVE spacers but that is not really that safe.
Side benefit to the E46 arms is they are also much lighter than the e30/e36 arms.
Cons are mainly a MASSIVE increase in negative camber as a result of the increase track most camber plates can only remove enough to sit at around 3.5-4 degrees negative minimum. Not all that great for a daily driver.
The no swaybar thing all I gotta say is don't knock it till you try it. It takes 15 mins to pull it off and see for yourself if you like the way it feel's. I loved it after I took the rear bar off my e36. I could stay on throttle harder and longer and the car just rotated less violently and more controlled.
Stiff Member
I'm saying, if I took a stock car, put a front strut bar and rear strut bar on it, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between with or without them. It isn't that I "don't know how to read feedback", it's that the difference isn't (and shouldn't) be that noticeable.
Also, my point is that your money is better spent elsewhere. There are many more mods you can do that will make so much more of a difference than a cross brace (in an E30).
To give you an idea why I look funny at your spring rates: The Turner J-stock suspension is 200-900/1050 (front is progressive). This setup was built in reflection of the old Gruppe N E30s back in the day. It is a proven race spring setup. Not too stiff, not too soft. I've seen many drifters use it with great success. It's even on the soft side of things. Very dailyable. Food for thought anywho.
I'm +1 with Piner. Although spacers KIND OF achieve the same thing. You're more likely to hit the front valence and rear of the wheel well with spacers ass it adds "offset" instead of just track width. I ran them specifically due to my tie rod spacers making my wheel hit the frame.
E46 control arms do not add angle. Tie rod spacers do. And yes, tie rod spacers are very safe to DD on. Lock tite them if you are worried and tighten them now and again. There's no real install write up as you just pull off the inner tie rod, shove the spacer on, and shove the tie rod back on.
I have had a hard time finding people selling tie rod spacers. I'm working on having some made though. I can make a write up if you would like.
I found out why the cross brace made such a difference in handling:
http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/show...7&postcount=80
Last edited by protomor; 10-04-2011 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?
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i dont see the japanese drifting with no sway and havnt heard of it. and they laugh at about 75% of builds around here
I had to rock no rear sway for about 2 weeks while i waited for welding plates for the RTA. it was a fricken scary nightmare. the rear wanders & felt spongy in the back, and if your compensating super stiff spring rates for no sway, then let the sway do what its supposed to do. Cause the rear sway connects at the frame btw. you can use stiff ass springs but the frame is flexing much more. i mean maybe its a crutch to help handle snap back but im pretty sure thats what your right foot and steering inputs are for. ill learn with both sways. thanks.lol and if your car handles violent then tune the set up! a violent car doesnt mean, well time to pull the sway. i guess im the weird one with my car theories/ways.
And no u didnt. what u think u found is evidence to help back up your argument.hahaha the cross brace still makes a huge difference. if u take your car and yank the e brake real quick, clutch kick while counter steering and then do the same with a cross brace. YOU WILL FEEL RIGIDITY IN THE FRAME UP FRONT with the cross brace. i actually put my stock sway back on for a a few drift nights and realized i just preferred the ST sway by itself for drift. in the back roads tho my time went down. I just cant enter a couple of the corners as fast. i get more tire squeal and front wander. if u dont understand that than its a fact u dont have a knack for feeling what a car is telling u. im sorry but that is my conclusion. regardless of how much u work on cars. a car is also trying to tell you how its feeling whenever u drive it. u gotta listen.lol i can feel when my left rear is loosing grip. or feel if my tire pressure is down. especially when drifting
now do u see how a cross brace isnt a skid plate at least? cause before u were tellin me they tighten up the frame just the same.
looks like im getting e46 arms for sure. they just have to be shaved down to fit lollipops right?
Honestly im getting sick of talking with this protomor guy. now hes talkin about, "I'm saying, if I took a stock car, put a front strut bar and rear strut bar on it, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between with or without them"
^ thats a stock car dude. then your talking about looking funny at my spring rates. dude u put your info out there so please put a sock in it. i DONT HAVE PRING RATES on my car. their hr sports which i got for free. so please dont gimme your opinion on money spent elsewhere
and i just re read another part. u came back with an argument about the skid plate reinforcing your car, EXCEPT you have a roll cage chasis brace down there. has nothing to do with the damn skidplate.haha but hey feed yourself evidence for your own argument all u want. im building my car based off my friends, cousins, and god brothers experiences with cars while living in japan. they know their shit more than this country
I really cant wait to drift against u at some comp someday. how many years u been drifting for so i know how much ive made up on u when the time comes? money for burning tires. i cant wait.haha everyone else thanks for the help and useful responses
Last edited by MauiM3Mania; 03-26-2012 at 02:56 PM. Reason: profanity
bone stock
i lol'd a little bit, have you done any events yet? theres a little more to it, it takes a long time to get to comps in this sport and for some reason i feel your e30 wont last long... the skid plate he has comes with a roll cage grade hoop to mount to. its from e30motorworks.. e30's and jdm cars are no were near similar, why on earth would you want to replicate that on a e30?
promotor is very knowledgeable and has been doing this for awhile mostly with e30 from what i remember.. we are all just trying to help you with our experience with these cars and what works, my turbo e36 is running no sways as i feel initiation is a little easier aswell as switch backs i just have high spring rates and a really low car i do run strut bars but honestly you wont feel a difference in a sub 350whp car, concepts and theories are good and all but alot of the people giving you advise have"been there done that"
Last edited by MauiM3Mania; 03-26-2012 at 02:57 PM. Reason: profanity
Jacques Cousteau could never get this low
Stiff Member
You make it sound like I'm trying to attack you. I've been in this game since 2004. Granted, my progress was very slow. I didn't have forums and proven drift setups like you can easily find on the net like you can now.
As part of my suspension tuning, I use sway bars as secondary roll correction. Spring rates are first. Most places you will be sliding will be fairly smooth. Therefore, big sways aren't necessary. Then only pro sports you'll see huge sway bars is something like dirt track where the surface is uneven.
I'm not normally one to out right and say it but I know a vast amount more than you. To ignore any possibility of learning from my is just dumb on your part. Even things that I say are wrong, if you can prove it, you've already learned something. But to outright dismiss me is ignorant. I'm a tech guy. It's what I do.
Where in MD are you? You do CL events or you go to DN at all? There's a DN event at summit on saturday. I'm not drifting but I'll be there. I invite you at any point in real life and discuss this with me. Worst case, you confirm I'm full of myself.
PS: what do you mean by this?i DONT HAVE PRING RATES on my car.
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I'm quoting this so you can reflect on it later once you have some actual track time under your belt. As of now, you don't have any; the skidpad at Summit doesn't count for much if you can't do a continuous loop or two while holding a fair amount of angle.
Car setup depends on the chassis as much as it does the motorsport and class it is being built for; living in Japan has nothing to do with it. The semi-rear trailing arm setup on the rear of the E30 requires different fixes than the multi-link on an E36 or a S-chassis.
This thread has resulted in a surprising amount of helpful posts; the only person who is getting uppity is you. You aren't like this in person, or at least not at the CP meets, so calm down, do some reading, and disconnect your rear sway and go for a drive sometime. That and come on out to Summit more often... the only way to truly understand and get better is to practice.
Last edited by MauiM3Mania; 03-26-2012 at 02:57 PM. Reason: profanity
Stiff Member
I wouldn't recommend killing the rear sway on the HR sport spring setup. It'll just make it roll more lol.
Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?
Voice of reason
A couple things are missing from this discussion.
1) It can be very difficult to rigorously test mods of any kind. Humans aren't very objective. Especially if the mod makes something louder or you spent money on it. One should be very slow to accept that A causes B until the physics get explained and all sorts of corroborating test results are available from other folks.
2) Chassis flex is affected by spring rates and cages. Therefore flex on a car with a cage can't be compared to a car w/o a cage. And flex with 300lb springs will be a lot less than with 500lb springs.
3) It's worth noting that no one in SpecE30 attempts to stiffen the front subframe and although most of us use a stiffener between shock towers, there's no body of evidence that it does much good. And SpecE30's take a lot more pounding than a drift car.
4) Understand the purpose of sway bars. Sways resist roll, sure, but why is roll bad? The amount of actual movement of the car's Centermass (CM) is pretty much inconsequential. The #1 consequence of roll is to that it adds camber to the wheels. So if you have -2 deg camber and 4deg of roll, you end up with +2deg of camber which is a lousy solution for optimizing traction. In order to resist sway, the sway bar steals traction from your inside tire by lifting it and adds traction to your outside tire by pressing it down. It's a net loss tho because you lose more traction than you gain.
By adjusting the relative stiffness of your rear vs. front sway bar you move your "center of roll resistance" forward or backward. In order to get balanced handling, that is to say a desireable middle ground between oversteer and understeer, you adjust the relative stiffness of your front vs. rear sways.
So sway bars help prevent your tires from going into positive camber. And they do so by stealing traction. You get to choose how much front vs. rear to steal.
5) Suspension is a "system" and it's complicated as heck. You can't piecemeal it into success. The way to do it right is find someone who has succeeded in identifying (or creating) a successfull complete system, and then just copy what they did. Then in the years that follow try little tweaks here and there and carefully evaluate the handling changes that result.
Last edited by Ranger1; 10-05-2011 at 01:07 PM.
Stock.
No spring rates FTW! LMAO!
Van's Parts
.
-Mike
IG: @mikevanshellenbeck
Member
yea..i didnt want my rear sway to rip off the bracket. since its thicker they said it might happen.
and i would love to come down and chill but i am extremely broke. i think its the typing that makes my so bitchy. i dont like texting, facebook, aim or forums for that much. i do like talking cars and will shut up for now on. like i have been saying throughout all this is I have gotten some good info though
ill work on receiving it
I meant that as theyre H&R sports..i obviously know they are rated at a certain lbs but its the same for everyone who gets sports. what i specifically meant is I dont have any "spring rates" I want. ive never heard someone refer to sport springs and their spring rates. its usually only in referance to coil overs so i meant coil overs. like if someone at a meet came up to me and said, "what are your spring rates?". I would say i dont have spring rates their just h&r sports.lol and the sports SUCK! not that dumb. not yet
i hear ya
Last edited by ROLLingKING; 10-06-2011 at 12:40 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Stiff Member
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40472
It's not 100% accurate but close enough.Spring---------------------Front(lb/in.)-------------Rear(lb/in.)
Stock 325i*-----------------------106------------------------245
Stock 325is*----------------------118------------------------265
Stock 325ix*----------------------106------------------------308
Stock M3*-------------------------114------------------------314
Stock M3--------------------------140------------------------250
Dinan Sport-----------------------172------------------------300
H&R OE Sport---------------------180------------------------380
H&R Sport-------------------------180------------------------380
H&R Sport (29664)---------------200------------------------285
H&R Race-------------------------315------------------------ 570
H&R Coilovers***----------------340------------------------380
Eibach Pro-Kit--------------------102-------------------------277
Eibach Race----------------------160-------------------------445
IE SIII----------------------------315-------------------------570 [Group Buy - $285]
Koni Coilovers-------------------342-------------------------407
Cosmo Coilovers----------------450-------------------------560
Tokico----------------------------165-------------------------265
TMS J-Stock**-------------------680------------------------1026
Alpina(est.)---------------------~200-----------------------~350
FK 60/60 cup kit-----------------379--------------------------379
Vogtland Standard***--------115/197-----------------------360
Vogtland CS***---------------137/200-----------------------400
Vogtland--------------------------225--------------------------360
Intrax-----------------------------126--------------------------250
My personal opinion is to make the car drift as easily as possible at first, then make the car grippier as you progress. The high spring rates I quoted earlier were referred to as "very soft" by my JDM buddies when they drive the car.
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they called 1050lb rate in the rear very soft? wow. i thought a lot of ppl went 750-800lbs from what ive seen if they got coils and planned on drifting. i think the 500-650 range will be to soft. Im ordering the ground control coilover conversion kit in a few weeks. anyone had/have problems with this or see these as a "cheap" coil over kit. Ive heard they are great so far from the people who use them. Im just not sure how much their testimonies applied to actual track time.
Oh and im thinking about deleting my power steering. Right now its leaking and shit. I did find a place to get cheap lines but I COULD live without it. Does it effect how the steering wheel rolls through your hand when driving? it will still turn and i can catch it and turn it right? ive never tried actually pushing a car without power steering but it should be the same when moving fast right?
Member
No its hard with no PS and it will kill your fingers.
Stiff Member
Keep in mind, effective rate and spring rate are two different things. Think about the most common S13 setups. 9/7 and 10/8. I run 12/18. E30s are semi trailing arm and the spring is in the middle of the lever point. Therefore, your rear spring rates are half as effective.
That means with spring rates of 12/18, the effective rate is something like 12/9. But also remember the E30 has a heavier motor than the S13 so the stiffer front rates make up for that. IMO I could go stiffer in the rear. Does that make sense? The video I linked you to, we are all running about 12/18.
Get the full GC kit with the modded strut housing. It's like $1700 but very worth it.
Don't delete power steering, slower drifts and regular day to day driving will become more effort than it's worth. I have a bunch of PS parts if you need some. Just lmk.
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BMW CCA Member
i have not run power steering for over 2 years. no issues either.
Drifter
I prefer powersteering, If it were me I'd try to keep it. I also had ground controls on my E36 and I was very happy with them. Served me well for 3 years drifting. Much better than the Tein POS's on my Chaser
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