Information on ATF for the 5HP30 automatic transmission

[olinjohnston]

With so much discussion on ATF changes through the years, I decided to make an easily searched thread on the subject that addresses this topic in relation to the 5HP30 directly.

Fluid for the 4HP24 on the early 850 is easy and cheap to come by, but those of us with the 5-speed (840Ci and M73 850Ci) are not so lucky. While many brands of ATF claim to be substitutes for Esso LT71141 (used in the 5HP24 & green-tag 5HP30) and Shell LA2634 (used in the black-tag 5HP30) the compatibility of such fluids has always been up for debate.

For years I wondered why they didn't just use the same fluid for all 5HP30s. BMW and ZF have always published dire warnings that use of any other fluid than the one specified could cause failure - without any explanation why.

As most of you know, the Shell LA2634 is not used in any other model, and is therefore extraordinarily expensive. This fact has caused many owners to switch to other types of fluid.

Each of us is certainly free to maintain their car however they choose, and improper new fluid may still produce better results than the original fluid that has been in use for 15+ years. On the other hand, I don't see the point in saving a few bucks and taking the risk on a car I have already spent thousands on in maintenance otherwise. Scrimping on such an important component seems crazy to me.

ZF recently introduced their own brand of ATF (called Lifeguard) that replaces some of the more obscure factory recommended fluids, including Esso LT71141. Lifeguard5 is the formula they recommend for the 5HP24 and green-tag 5HP30.

Also, it should be noted that ZF's own documentation now recommends fluid changes even on "lifetime fill" transmissions dependent on operating conditions.

On the 5HP30 transmission itself, there is a metal tag:


Image credit: http://www.thectsc.com


I was still not entirely convinced that NO other fluid could possibly be the "right one" for the black-tag transmission, so I contacted ZF in Germany personally to see what they could tell me about it, and use of Lifeguard5 fluid in particular.

Everything I had seen on the forum about it thus far was nothing more than speculation, or a leap of blind faith by the owner.

This was their response:

Dear Mr. Johnston,

The ZF 5HP30 version with oil pan apperture label "BMW Oil No. 8322 9407765" has to be filled with Shell ATF LA-2634 (see enclosed ZF list of lubricants TE-ML 11 page 3).
Use of other fluids can cause bad shift quality or in the worst case damage of the transmission. Therefor also the ZF Lifeguardfluid5 is not approved for use in this 5HP30 version.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Martin Vogel
Technik ZF-Konzern
Schmierstoffe und Kunststoffe

ZF Friedrichshafen AG
88038 Friedrichshafen, Deutschland
Telefon +49 7541 77-7181


"Just for my further understanding, what are the technical/mechanical differences between these two 5HP30 transmissions that would necessitate the use of separate fluids."

"The controlled converter clutch is used in a different way in these two versions. Therefor the control unit is calibrated completely different and that needs different friction behavior from the fluid."


Finally! A definitive answer...and all it took was an email. I have a renewed respect for German efficiency in communication, and a renewed frustration for German overkill tiny detail-driven engineering.

My purpose with this thread is not to start any more ATF debates, but only to provide an objective research point for those who are looking into changing their "lifetime" transmission fluid - with answers straight from the people who made it. I've always said I would only use Shell LA2634 and this has reinforced my decision.

Happy (automatic) shifting!

[m6bigdog]

With so much discussion on ATF changes through the years,...

Finally! A definitive answer...and all it took was an email. I have a renewed respect for German efficiency in communication, and a renewed frustration for German overkill tiny detail-driven engineering.
...

Excellent post. Thanks for doing the research.

I share your frustration with the lack of options for a less expensive fluid. Even the Dealer techs consider the cars over engineered. I guess if they weren't, they be other than an Ultimate Driving Machine.

I have 2 BMWs that use the Esso LT 71141 and I've opted to bite the bullet and buy the 20 liter jug at the dealer with a cost +10% arrangement. I'm on the second jug in 13 years.

Attached is a helpful BMW document SD 92-113 that graphs the ATF, vehicle, trans, capacity and application years.

[Timm]

Thanks for the legwork Olin, that is excellent information.

[felixbobcat]

The Lifeguard5 is a little cheaper depending on where you get it. I found it online for $15.95 a litre for a VW. Same sight had it for $20 a litre for BMW. Go figure....

[EricinConejo]

I used the local VW dealer. Got mine there a few years ago for substantially less then the BMW dealer.

[olinjohnston]

I used the local VW dealer. Got mine there a few years ago for substantially less then the BMW dealer.

Shell LA2634?

This stuff is quite rare. One 5 liter bottle costs around $150, and it takes more than that to change it.

[Mike in CT]

Some further information form ZF's Martin Vogel on fluid for the green tag transmissions from this Audi Forum:

http://www.audiforums.com/forum/audi...-123705/page2/

The lifetime of the transmission is not exactly defined and each car manufacturer has his own philosophy therefor. The ZF transmissions are developed and tested to overcome lifetime without oil change under normal driving conditions. In our latest version ZF list of lubricants TE-ML 11 we mention that in case of running a car / transmission under severe conditions (highway driving in top speed range, offensive sporty driving style, frequent trailer operation) an oil change between 80.000 - 120.000K is recommended.

Under the Audi Oil no. G 052162 A2 and G 052162 A1 you will get the same fluid. The difference between A2 and A1 is only the amount of fluid / size of the can (A1-> 0,5 liter, A2 -> 1 liter).

Up to 2005 we have used the Esso LT 71141 as factory fill fluid and as service fluid (ZF Lifeguardfluid5). From 2006 on we have changed to Pentosin ATF 1. Both fluids are approved for use in the ZF 5HPxx transmissions.

I hope the mystery around the ZF transmissions is get a bit clearer for you.

If you have additional questions therefor please do not hesitate to contact me.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Kind regards
Martin Vogel
Schmierstoffe und Polymere (TW-L)/Lubricants and Polymers (TW-L)

ZF Friedrichshafen AG
88038 Friedrichshafen, Deutschland/Germany
Telefon/Phone +49 7541 77-7181, Telefax/Fax +49 7541 77-907181
martin.vogel@zf.com

Recently changed my fluid with two drain and refills about a week apart. I opted to use the fully synthetic Pentosin ATF1 as opposed to the part synthetic now Mobile Exxon (ESSO) LT 71141. The Pentosin was about $4 a bottle less expensive.

As has been posted extensively, some of the less expensive synthetics such as Valvoline MaxLife may work just fine, but with such infrequent changes, I have no issue using what the manufacturer uses.

Went against the common advice common advice about not changing at high mileage, but have not experienced any issues and nothing unexpected in the pan. This is with just over 200,000 miles.

[BBmatic]

I was also advised by one or two people not to undertake this task, as my 840 was on 160k miles when I bought it. Used LT 71141 - there were no nasty surprises .. its been running sweetly since. So currently, we must add my experience to Mike in CT's as a positive outcome despite high mileage.
My tech guy didn't feel that repeating the procedure a week/month later was necessary, though I do have enough LT 71141 left over to do it again. Mike in CT, I'd be interested to know whether your second experience of the process gave you any concrete reason to believe that the second drain/ refill was necessary/ helpful?

[Frankie]

Interesting thread, gentlemen.

I just had my tranny fluid changed at my indy with 96K miles. According to my receipts, 4 liters of synthetic were used at $47/liter. If I understand Mr. Vogel's message, synthetic or LifeGuard may be used as service fluid in my "green tag" 5HP30. However, his later comment (from Mike's post) in which he states "both fluids are approved for use in the ZF 5HPxx transmissions", seems to contradict Olin's message regarding "black tag" trannies. But, I think his comments were directed to the later green tag (Audi) models only.

[Mike in CT]

Audi used the all wheel drive version of the ZF 5HP24 and it was designated the ZF 5HP24A. Same fluid requirements for both transmission types. 5HP24A has a transfer case with a separtate oil supply.

I filled with almost 6 liters. This is consistent with the value listed in the attached document in m6bigdogs's post for the "5HP24 (A5S 440Z) FOR 4.4L" transmission on page 3. Without torque converter: 5.35 liters. Note the table above is incorrect. It does not list this transmission for a '97 e31.

$47/liter is quite expensive.

North American application for this transmission is attached.

[BBmatic]

Mike, anything you saw on the 2nd drain/ refill that led you to think such a repeat of the procedure was necessary?
TIA.

[Mike in CT]

Mike, anything you saw on the 2nd drain/ refill that led you to think such a repeat of the procedure was necessary?
TIA.

Basically just trying to replace some of the fluid that remained in the torque converter during the initial drain. I did use an OEM "Filtran" filter. A Filtran filter is what came out of the transmission and discount dealer cost is very reasonable.

I used an oil pump that is made for draining marine engines to fill the transmission along with a digital thermometer that uses a type K thermocouple to measure the fluid temperature during warm-up.

Made up a simple hooked tube with the thermocouple to fill and monitor temperature.





The fluid temperature shoots past the max fill temperature fairly quickly.

The particular pump I purchased pumped a little on the slow side. Note the 7/8" drill rod that Maxlumens recommends. Works great with my old Hein Werner 5 ton jack stands to get the car up high and be rock steady and safe.

Placed a 4 foot carpenter's level on the roof to make sure the car is leveled during filling.



I wonder how many of the issues encountered following a transmission service are due to improper filling.

[EricinConejo]

Shell LA2634?

This stuff is quite rare. One 5 liter bottle costs around $150, and it takes more than that to change it.

Sorry no it was Esso.

[Frankie]

I used an oil pump that is made for draining marine engines to fill the transmission along with a digital thermometer that uses a type K thermocouple to measure the fluid temperature during warm-up....

Jheesh Mike.....I'd rather pay $47/liter and let someone else do it.

[e31gixxxer]

I'd sooner pay $47/ltr. and do it myself, than trust the average mech. to undertake this correctly.

[BBmatic]

Thanks for info Mike.
I was pretty stressed out when my gearbox drain/ refill took place. My garage guy is laconic, almost disturbingly casual but whenever I press him for details about his methodology, his replies are more than satisfactory. But I still doubt he goes the full precautionary nine yards. I've had the leftover transmission fluid since then but so far have resisted the urge to ask him to repeat the process. Its just a little too nerve wracking.

[toomanyparts]

I am very confused. In related threads, Olin has stated that BMW never used the steptronic 5HP30 in their cars. However, I, like Frankie, have a steptronic 5HP30 in my 97 (6/96 production) 840ci. Am I just lucky as far as my make?

I checked my tag (green) and sure enough the cross reference is to Esso LT71141. I bought 12 liters, the gasket and the new filter. I plan to have my indy change the filter and gasket (he is a Volvo man by nature but the guy is amazing) and then drive the car for 10-20 minutes on the freeway. I would then like him to repeat the process with the additional 6 liters and then hand me back the car. I still need to triple check by getting the actual tag off the Trans itself and not just the pan. I am paranoid.

I didn't buy the official BMW 20L jug, I bought 12Ls of the Febi/Bilstein brand instead. It is the same part number so I am confident the BMW liquid gold isn't special. Perhaps it has the BMW logo on the side of it...

Is it worth changing the fluid in the torque converter? I am an idiot when it comes to the inner workings of a trans, but my guess would be yes. If that is the case, looks like I need 13 liters!!! Well, perhaps the fluid that runs in the trans passes through the torque converter or is it sealed off by its lonesome?

I would have used full synthetic Lifeguard but I recently stumbled upon the P.O.'s receipts which showed he had the tranny fluid changed back in 2005. The car has seen about 15K since then (at 71K) so I hope all is well.

I also found I have Dinan engine software but not the trans software. I want to get it, but I am hesitant as I think Dinan is a shit tuner and I don't trust them. However, I am not sure who else makes trans software for the later 840's tran.

Trans fluid is expensive. KY jelly for autos.

[olinjohnston]

I am very confused. In related threads, Olin has stated that BMW never used the steptronic 5HP30 in their cars. However, I, like Frankie, have a steptronic 5HP30 in my 97 (6/96 production) 840ci. Am I just lucky as far as my make?

Sorry, I must have made a mistake in saying that, if I did so. However, I was currently under the impression that the V8s with Steptronic were 5HP24s and only the V12 continued to use the 5HP30 in Steptronic form. Thanks for the correction.

In relation to your ATF change, it sounds like the "green-tag" units are more forgiving when it comes to fluid from the information provided. eg. ESSO, Lifeguard5, etc.

[toomanyparts]

Sorry, I must have made a mistake in saying that, if I did so. However, I was currently under the impression that the V8s with Steptronic were 5HP24s and only the V12 continued to use the 5HP30 in Steptronic form. Thanks for the correction.

In relation to your ATF change, it sounds like the "green-tag" units are more forgiving when it comes to fluid from the information provided. eg. ESSO, Lifeguard5, etc.

Olin, no worries. I was just thrown for a huge loop as my build sheet doesn't list the trans. Furthermore, the VIN decoder on realoem shows both trans as applicable (which would only proove the point of your original post that the 5HP24 was used in the late 840ci). Last thing I wanted was to find out I ordered $200 of kit for the wrong transmission.

I crawled under the belly of the beast and saw the "83229407807 fluid only" green label transmission tag, which references the BMW 20 liter jug, but if you do some searching you will find that Mobil 1 makes the "official" ESSO stuff these days and Febi (and possibly a few others) make the clones (same part number though, so not that "equivalent" line - I am not buying that.

They are about the same price but I have only seen Bavauto sell the Mobil brand.

Working on these things is a full time job because you likely don't trust others to touch them.

Thank god I kept the Volvo.

[02540ico]

12qts won't be enough to drain/fill, drop the pan/fill. She'll drop 7-8qts each drain cycle. Also, make sure you have the OEM filter, if not the cheap filter may collapse under pressure and reduce fluid flow and cause a loud trans whine.

[toomanyparts]

12qts won't be enough to drain/fill, drop the pan/fill. She'll drop 7-8qts each drain cycle. Also, make sure you have the OEM filter, if not the cheap filter may collapse under pressure and reduce fluid flow and cause a loud trans whine.

I am just draining once and replacing the filter. Will 12 quarts be enough for this? I am going to reflush in 6 months time.

[02540ico]

I am just draining once and replacing the filter. Will 12 quarts be enough for this? I am going to reflush in 6 months time.

Yep, 12 will be plenty.

[toomanyparts]

Thank you sir. I dropped the car off this morning as I am too busy to do myself and was worried I may have left my tech with less than the amount of fluid required. Cheers, Mike

[Mihai1979]

i have to lvl my gearbox oil with esso atf but i can't find that kind of oil. What is the equivalent for this oil? i heard that now Mobil is factoring that oil. is that true?

[Mike in CT]

i have to lvl my gearbox oil with esso atf but i can't find that kind of oil. What is the equivalent for this oil? i heard that now Mobil is factoring that oil. is that true?

Mihai, to keep things simple, inspect your transmission to confirm the type of ZF transmission that you have. Look for the tag on the side of the transmission. Then consult the most recent ZF documentation that is attached (Oct 2011) and simply use what is recommend. Likely ZF Lifeguardfluid5 or BMW part number 83 22 9 407 807 since you referenced the no longer available ESSO fluid. At least in the States, the ZF fluid cost is reasonable. You will be fine. If you research the archived forum posts on this subject, you will become hopelessly confused.

Mike