yes, you could do that because it is a pretty weak deck, if you had an amp that acceppts 'unbalanced' inputs... but most amps like no more than 2-4v of input, so your volume knob range will be limited, and they share the rca ground with amp chassis andground adn the negative terminal (ground).
Thus not a great idea. better to do a hi level to low level adapter which will isolate the head units outputs, and give you some range back on the volume control.
ok will do but just from looking online i am likeing the polk db series. have you ever had any experiance with them?
If anyone here wants to replace the front stage speakers (the stock amp has to go) and wants a clean install, I recommend the Eclipse sc8355. The mids and highs fit perfectly in the stock locations :
And the crossovers can be wired easily to the stock wiring. I've placed them where the stock amp used to be:
No hassle at all. They sound very clean, especially for the money.
I had to make some adapters for the midbass's though, since the holes were a couple of mm off. Not a big deal.
Last edited by Schneider; 08-23-2011 at 11:14 PM.
for us europeans and a newbie like myself with no factory amp in the boot.. only the deck, kick panel speakers, dash speakers and rear shelf speakers... does any of this apply to us ? :P
92' BMW 525i E34, Calypso Red (dead) & 91' BMW 520i E34, Calypso Red
Yes, you can use the stock head unit with an aftermarket amp. You can even use the factory wiring from the head unit to the rear mounted amplifier if you don't want to pull up carpets to run new cables. Yes, the stock head unit is not the best quality but for those wishing to keep OEM look, it is a viable option. I will describe how to use the stock head unit in my first iteration of installing the Lanzar crossover and used amp. Later on, I will describe how to install an aftermarket head unit but I want to start with the amplifier and crossover upgrade first.
I replaced the stock fronts with a/d/s 245is components, the tweeters were small and fit the pods nicely. I secured them with hot glue and put them back in place. The midbasses dropped right in, the midranges were replaced with Morel domes also drop in's. The front stage really improved I have the newer '94-'95 amp with the active network.
The sound of MP3's/iPod is terrible I would not waste my time, it is all about convenience at the sacrifice of sound quality.
I had the CD43 but went back to the stock unit and sourced the 6 disc Alpine changer because I wanted the convenience of the 6 disc's and the check control information that display's as well.
I had a monster system in it for awhile but went back to stock since I just did not spend enough time in the car to fully enjoy it. I was running an Alpine CDA-7998 "Active" with the CHA-601 changer and three Orion NT 200 amps and a pair of Orion NT2 10" DVC's in a sealed enclosure.
With the stock system alot of the sound is dependent on the quality of the CD recording. Most of the new CD's are way oversaturated and sound like crap.
a/d/s used to make an 8 channel amp that could run the whole system I believe it was the 850 that and an nice deck would provide killer results.
Agree that passive crossovers can be good if properly designed but the OEM BMW E34 crossovers are far from optimal and they are old. It is certain that the electrolytic capacitors in them have degraded a lot. Active crossovers eliminate this issue and are probably less expensive than purchasing quality inductors and capacitors in this day and age. I have been designing and building high end home speakers for myself and friends for about 25 years and have sophisticated CAD software (LEAP) and measurement equipment (PRAXIS). I understand how to properly design passive crossovers. I just do not believe they are best for a car system. This is especially true for DIY car audio. It is far easier to build a system using active crossovers than do a proper passive crossover design for a car. If you are buying aftermarket speakers with passive crossovers, they may or may not be good for your install. It is heavily dependent on where the drivers are mounted.
For example, if you install a quality two way component system in our E34's, you would most likely put the woofer in the kick panels and the tweeter in either the stock location or where the stock mid range is mounted in the dash. The manufacturer of this aftermarket speaker system probably did not design their crossover with an E34 in mind. The mid-woofer will probably be crossed over to the tweeter somewhere around 4000-5000 Hz. The problem with this is that the BMW E34 stock location for the mid-woofer fires it right into the driver's feet. There is no way that the frequency response from the mid-woofer at the driver's ears will reach 5000 Hz without tons of cancellation and attenuation due to reflected sound. There will also be a resonance from the sound that bounces back and forth between the driveshaft tunnel and kick panel. There is no way that the passive crossover will take all of this into account. An active crossover for a 3 way system can overcome these problems much better by using steeper cut off slopes and not forcing the kick panel speakers to reproduce higher frequencies than its location and mounting method allow the driver to hear cleanly.
I am sure BMW went with a 3 way design for this reason. It was easier to restrict the range of the kick panel speakers and put a cheap 2" midrange in the dash. We can improve on this design by replacing the OEM amplifier with better quality aftermarket equipment and active crossovers. That is why I chose this as the first step in this tutorial. I will take this all the way to installing some fairly high end equipment but wanted to start with what I believe is the logical first step for someone with limited knowledge and budget.
Another big reason for my suggesting an active crossover installation with upgraded amplifier is that this approach allows for future modifications if the the user wants to go there. It is very easy to change the tuning on an active crossover system for new speakers. It is very difficult to do this in a hobbyist DIY environment with passive crossovers and I have the knowledge, training, and equipment to do it properly.
I am purposely not addressing a custom installation of quality aftermarket speakers in modified door panels or kick panels. This is beyond the scope of what I am trying to help the forum members understand here. It seems there is strong interest in how to upgrade our stereos without major surgery to the interior and that is what I am trying to focus this thread on.
Last edited by Mark185; 06-15-2011 at 12:38 PM.
Yes, but how you install and wire this system may be different if your factory stereo wiring harness is different than ours. I am going to show how to use the existing wiring that runs from our head units to the rear amp. If the euro cars do not have this harness in place, you will have run your own cables from front mounted head unit to the rear and from the new rear amplifier to the speakers. It will increase the labor involved by a big margin. You can check your harness by looking for 4 or more sets of twisted wire pairs in the left rear 1/4 panel body cavity behind your trunk panels. If it is there, BMW should have installed some kind of plug to just loop the signals back to the front speakers without and amplifier. This would be very interesting to find out because the 'loop back' wiring if it exists could make this upgrade much easier for enthusiasts on both sides of the pond.
e30 84 340i m6x powered.
e34 89 535i 5speed - current DD
e24 89 635csi - maybe a DD?
e34 93 525i (m50tu) - gone
e39 540i 6spd m-sport - gone
e53 x5 4.4l - gone
e30 89 325i (m20) - gone
I would say that a properly designed passive network would perform better than the average DIY attempting to tune an 11 channel active system...but having been a pro installer for over 30 years now, I have seen plenty of disastrous "pro" installs too.
I plan on marketing a 10 channel passive crossover network specifically for BMW. I have just gotten started designing the crossovers, but my intent is to be able to make the stock drivers sound as good as they can, being all car audio is compromise.
The kit will be typical 12db/oct high pass, but am going to build it 6db/oct low pass (midbass and midrange) and see if I like it. Concerned about weird phase issues, basically. Since none of the drivers are on the same plane anywhere, phase and time relationships are tossed out the window anyway, right?
I think I am going to do my old standby of Mylar + air core, with polypropylene bypasses for the tweeters. I feel it sweetens up the highs, plus the increase in power handling makes a pair of .03uFDs worth it.
So, they way I see it, the cost of 11 or 12 channels of power and the size/complexity/space of using all of those amps would make a 10 channel passive crossover and a 4 or 5 channel amp a viable, cost effective option.
My company goal is to offer the BMW enthusiast an option to solve the issues specific to BMWs: the 3 way front components, the issues in interfacing the later cars with aftermarket amps, and offer logical solutions to the idea of getting bass in these cars, without sacrificing all of the trunk or making silly "ghetto boom", while solving the issue of rattles...all for a few hundred dollars.
I will also be making a 6.5" midbass "adapter", so it will be an easy step to change over to a significantly better driver in the kickpanels, all with no visible modifications, intended for DIY applications.
So, if someone wanted to do their install using all my parts, they could do either an 8", a 10" or a 12" woofer, a 10 channel passive crossover and a 5 channel amp for under $750, DIY. This would kill any local shop trying to do the same thing for $2500, easily.
I applaud your efforts in this area. The aftermarket has not really done much for BMWs with the exception of the overpriced speaker replacements I mentioned earlier. Preference for active vs. passive speaker crossover filters for E34 is going to come down to the customer's tolerance for experimentation and tweaking. The active crossover is always going to provide more freedom to change things vs. a passive crossover that is only good for specific speakers. If a customer wants to just install and forget it, your approach is going to be a good option if you can sort out the crossover slopes well enough to get good sound. If the DIYer wants to learn how to tune his stereo and is open to experimenting, the active filters will always be a better solution. The major thing that drove me to want to learn how to do this was the generally poor quality of 'pro' installers in my area. As a kid, I was ripped off multiple times by shops and installers with no integrity and little skill. At one time, had two really good mobile audio shops in the area but changing economic times forced them out of the business. IMO, Circuit City and Best Buy had a lot to do with that.
I will be very interested in your 6.5" mid-bass adapter. I would love to avoid the labor involved in doing this again. Will you design it to seal the driver to the kick panel cavity as well as possible? I put a lot of time into that on my 89 535i and while it was not 100% effective, the low bass did improve significantly vs. an installation with no seal between the woofer and the sheet metal.
I want to repeat the intent of this thread. I am trying to show a way for the average DIYer to upgrade his factory stereo using an inexpensive active crossover filter and used multi channel amplifiers. The cost of older reasonable quality multi channel amps is very affordable. I would agree that if you are buying a new amplifier or pair of amps, the cost of a properly designed passive crossover will be lower. If you are not afraid to learn and experiment, the approach I am describing will be less expensive.
This is not about getting audiophile sound quality. I don't think audiophile sound quality in a car is an affordable or realistic proposition for most of us. That would mean solving all the phase and path length difference issues of the three front speakers. That really can't be done without digital signal processing (DSP) and how to do that is way beyond the scope of what I intended for this thread. (If anyone following this thread is curious about a high end approach that includes DSP, search for posts by BMWTURBO on BfC audio forum. He has a great thread from a few years ago describing this approach for his E32.) This is more about getting the best bang for the buck with a noticeable improvement in sound quality.
M20E34, it sounds like your passive crossover design would also fit this category and I would love to hear more about what you intend to do. One thing you are going to have to be very careful about is the overall impedance seen by the amplifier channels with a multi-way passive crossover that includes band pass filters for the midranges. Most affordable mobile audio amplifiers don't like large impedance swings and extremely low impedance dips. The technical ability and availability of design tools to make passive crossover filters with these considerations in mind is way beyond the average DIY person. That is why I went down the active filter path in this thread.
Last edited by Mark185; 06-16-2011 at 03:07 PM.
THANKS!!! I've been looking for a proper speaker to replace the front mids. Will have to order a set of those for my car.
I don't want to post-jack this great thread, but I have to disagree with this.. Encoded properly, mp3s can sound fantastic. Try a 320kbps or high quality VBR encoded mp3. The sound quality is very, very close to the original source material. I've played around with these on my home audiophile grade setup and while there is some very slight degradation, its not enough to warrant abandoning the format, especially for mobile use. I refuse to listen to anything under 256kbps, with 320kbps or VBR being preferred. At this level, I find them decent enough to listen on my home setup when I don't feel like digging through my CDs. I'm running Carver amplifiers w/ Paradigm Studio 80s.
Last edited by desertpir8; 06-16-2011 at 04:31 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Desertpir8 - '92 535iM - '62 M-B Unimog - '03 VW Jetta TDI
You and I are absolutely on the same page. Active is FAR superior, but "problematic" for the average DIY guy...just from what you have said here, I would bet our choices for crossover points, overall levels and general tonal balance are quite similar...but as you said, my goal is for a BMW enthusiast to have top notch SQ, but certainly nothing even close to "Audiophile" specs.
You won't find flat wire inductors in my crossovers, no $100 caps. I will use a better grade of solder though, and hope to get AudioControl to make the boards!
Personally, I find it funny that I am considered an Audiophile. Stereophile, maybe...but my goal is to make music sound good to my standards, and when I hit it, very very few can spot room for improvement. I pride myself on giving more than expected...but the E34 and higher program leaves a bit to be desired IMO.
So, about the crossover: I am going to work with a $130 5 channel amp, the Jensen Power 5500. That price is a closeout price, but still, it is a cheap Taiwan 5 channel. If it is OK, all other amps should be fine. I will start off with deck power, just to make sure it is stable with that too, but by the time I do even a simple 12db/oct high pass on the mid and tweet, a 12db/oct low pass on the midbass (hoping to get away with 6db/oct, just for cost and efficiency, low pass only) I will have lost so much power, there is just no way I could deal with deck power on that. Add pretty much any tweeter protection or any impedance compensation and we are talking 85db on deck power...not gonna fly for my customers, no way.
BTW, I do expect that virtually all of my crossovers will be actively high-passed, but I will make sure they can play "full range" too. Hoping to sell bunches of these simply to repair broken stock amps in E46s!
And, a gratuitous pic or two of the E34 kickpanel I did a couple of years ago:
OK, three: (PG ZeroPoint 6.5" midbass)
That is the general idea of what I will be making, but I can't keep up on all the other stuff as it is right now...when my son comes back home, that will help. Having your own personal assistant is good, right?
Thanks for the kind words!
Luke Fisher
Luke, you don't need me to tell you that is one sweet kick panel install but I will anyway. It puts my first attempt years ago to shame. How did you handle getting the plastic kicks to stay in place? I am guessing you cut off the plastic clip that normally slides behind the sheet metal towards the firewall to hold the plastic panels tight. Did you cut any sheet metal to provide clearance for the speaker basket? Will any 6.5" mid fit? I used an Adire Koda 6 back when I did the install. It was a challenge getting the basket to clear the sheet metal opening.
I like your approach to the passive crossover using a practical, cost effective amp. I think it is spot on for the majority of folks that will be interested.
Since the Lanzar crossover didn't come today, I went searching for more tutorial type info in keeping with the spirit of this thread. The following will help beginners to understand some discussion that will come later when I start tuning this install. I copied this from a great post on DIYMA.com. The link is:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...rossovers.html
==============================================
The following post was shamelessly stolen from the forums at talkaudio.co.uk from Matt@ nearfield audio (UK stereo shop). He is also an IASCA judge.
Quote:
Understanding Frequency - What does What
A lot of you know that I am a bit of an sq fiend, I am one of the few people on here that often turns of the sub just to check it's still running...I personally like sub bass as an anchor for the low end and to add warmth to the music. To me, mid and midbass is the key.
Mid and Midbass IS critical. let's look at the frequency response of some instruments and see where all the action is. I am not going to go into the the differences of Fundemental and Harmonic frequencies, and how they interact (I can if need be), this is more of an overview of what frequencies make up what.
For those of us who listen to acoustic music, apposed to synthesised dance music, for want of a better description, I shall take some drums, bass guitar, electric guitar, and vocals.
I shall work through the frequencies rather than the instruements, as this will allow us to see where there are complimentary frequencies (different instruments produce the same sound).
50hz (usually sub bass)
this freq is where all the boom is, if you want more boom on foot drums and bass guitar, boost, to reduce, cut.
100hz( usually mid bass)
this is the hard bass sound, it gives drums that solid feel, boosting here will harden the drums/bass guitar, as well as adding warmth to guitars. A cut will reduce boom on guitar and add clarity.
200hz (either midbass/mid)
Boost to add warmth to vocals and guitar, reduce to clean up vocals
400hz (usually mid / large Horn)
Boost to bass in general, reduce to decrease cardboard sound low drums.
800hz(usually mid/horns)
Boost to add clarity and Punch to bass, this is the one that digs you in the ribs , cut to reduce tinnyness to guitars
1.5khz (mid/tweet/horns)
Boost to add clarity to bass guitar, reduce to impreve dullness of guitar
3khz (mid/tweet/horns)
Boost to increase pluck on bass guitar, attack on guitar and high drums, increases clarity of vocals.
Cut to reduce breathy sound on vocals.
5khz(mid/tweet/horns)
boost for vocal presence, low drum attack, piano attack, and guitars, reduce to distance background.
7khz(usually tweet/horn)
boost, more attack on low drums, percussion and bring life to dull vocals, also sharpen elctric guitar
Cut to reduce siblance
10khz (tweet/horn)
increase to brighten vocals/guitar and piano
cut to reduce siblance
15khz (tweet/horn)
increase to brighten vocals/guitar and piano highs
Right, looking down this list we can see that if we want a good solid bass line ( add @100hz), that's not boomy (cut @ 50hz), with good punch (add @ 800hz), with good attack ( boost at 5-7khz), most of the action is in the midbass and midrange area, with only boominess being in the sub area.
This also highlights one of the main benefits of horns( the huge range they cover).
Understanding these frequencies also allows for fine tuning things like stage height (more attack of drums gives perception of a higher stage), and adding depth, ( make background sounds more distant)
This is not really even an introduction apparantly, and I thought I was doing well when I understood this lot, but there's more, so much more.....
AND THIS IS ALSO FROM SAME THREAD:
Another shamelessly stolen post from killahertz at talkaudio.co.uk. This dude in the man and I will link to the forum it originates from and to anyone interested there are some incredible posts in the faq.
Quote:
A crossover consists of two or more filters designed to split the desired frequency range into parts. Each part then being assigned a dedicated drive unit (speaker). A 2-way crossover has two filters: a high pass and a low pass, and is usually used to integrate a mid-bass and a tweeter.
Each filter then has several characteristics, one of which is it's slope (or roll-off), measured in decibels per octave (dB/oct). An octave being a factor of 2 of the original frequency. Thus 1kHz has octaves at 500Hz and 2kHz.
The rate of roll-off is always a factor of 6 (for ease of circuit design and calculation). The most popular types being 6dB/oct, 12dB/oct, and 24dB/oct. Further to the numerical rate of roll-off, filters are often asigned an 'order' number. Order numbers are again a factor of 6, thus a 1st order filter equates to 6dB/oct (1*6), 2nd order 12dB/oct (2*6), and 4th order 24dB/oct (4*6).
The other important filter characteristic is the filter point (crossover point where necessary). The filter point is that chosen at the design stage and equates to the 'half-power point', or the frequency where output is -3dB (-3dB equating to a 50% reduction in power). *** This assumes the filter design uses -3dB, some designs are -6dB at the filter point ***.
For example: a 1kHz high pass filter. In it's most basic sense everything above 1kHz passes, everything below is discarded. That's not particularly accurate. The frequencies below 1kHz are not discraded, rather they are attenuated according to the rate of roll-off of the filter. Assuming 6dB/oct: The output from the filter is -3dB at 1kHz, an octave later (500Hz) the output is -9dB (ie the output is already -3dB, and the filter reduces that by a further -6dB). Another octave lower (250Hz) and the output will be -15dB. If the filter were 2nd order, 12dB/oct, the output would be -15dB within the space of an octave, ie at 500Hz. -15dB equates to over 95% reduction in power.
This should indicate the importance of high order filters, especially within high power systems, and especially with tweeters. With a 6dB/oct filter, low mid-bass frequencies will still be entering the tweeter. And even though the output is considerably reduced, if enough power is available, the percentage reduction may not be enough to stop tweeter damage.
Just for reference:
-3dB = 50% reduction, or a factor of 2
-6dB = 75% reduction, or a factor of 4
-12dB = 93.75% reduction, or a factor 16
-18dB = 98.4375% reduction, or a factor 64
-24dB = 99.609375% reduction, or a factor 256
Last edited by Mark185; 06-16-2011 at 10:28 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Zero points were some good speakers
ok time for another one of my noob questions. Is there a way to use the rear channels to give signal for a sub?
[QUOTE=Mark185;22169792]T
Even if you don't want to replace the stock head unit with a CD43, you can get a significant improvement in sound quality by replacing the rear-mounted amplifier with a better amp and active crossover filters.
First, a word about the 94-95 E34 amplifiers. They have active crossover filters which does clean up the sound a bit. The stock stereo in my 95 touring does sound cleaner, with better high frequency response than the stock one did in my 89 535i. The problem with these amps is that they are still way underpowered compared to modern equipment and they are probably using aluminum electrolytic caps in the signal path even though they have active filters. The factory speakers can sound a lot better with an upgraded amplifier.
Mark185 great information! I have a 92 E34 so if I get the 94-95 amp I can get a little better sound for now while I save up some bucks for a better sound system.
Yes, the fader on the head unit would then allow you to control the sub volume relative to the front speakers. A lot of subwoofer amps have inputs for speaker level signals from head units so this should be easy to do.
[quote=dragracer440wed;22186668]Yes but there are some things to consider. The connectors are different. I have not actually compared them so I can't describe how different they are. The signals going in and out should be identical. Still, you will have to get the later model connectors with the amp if you get it out of a salvage yard and do some splicing. If you could do this for less than $50, it might be worth your time. Factor this against AE's amp and crossover selling for $150 if they are still available. Even if his equipment is sold, if you could find a similar deal on used equipment, it would probably be a better use of your money and time to splice in better equipment than the 94-95 amp.
Last edited by Mark185; 06-17-2011 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
IF you have an aftermarket head, you are way way better off nodding the factory 92 amp.
And no, mine is sold. But if you mod the amp you can run any 4 channel amp easily.
M20E34 i was wondering are your subwoofer boxes optimised for specific subwoofers? What subwoofers would you recommend? and 10'' or 12'' which do you prefer?
Well, "kind of" is the best answer I can give you. Basically, I build the design based on a "Theoretical" woofer. Because I use a somewhat larger than normal design, there are LOTS of nice woofers (ranging from $40 to $300) that work very nicely.
The first spec you want to look for is Qtc, and you want that to ideally be under .4
The next spec you want to see if Fs, you MUST have that under 32Hz, ideally under 28Hz, especially on the 12".
In a wonderful world, MMS (which is often ignored, BTW) will be under 175Gms for a 12", and 130Gms for a 10.
All of the guys on this board (I am always surprised at level of competency here) will likely agree that this is the very least info needed to mate woofer to box, but is enough to narrow down a search to only a few hundred choices.
Buuut, I really don't wanna clog this thread up with a bunch of discussion about my boxes when the intent of this thread is what to do about mids and highs.
The PM system on here sucks ass IMO, but if you want to get into further discussion (I am ALWAYS up for it!) I could make a thread, or you could email me: stereoinstaller1 AT gmail.com
Luke
I woosed out and bought an M stickered over Rover/Blaupunkt CD43 on ebay for $175 shipped w/CODE. I'll give my impression of the improvement.
Ok so keeping with the stock system. Does anyone know what the true rms rating for the stock system is? Not what the amp puts out but how much the speakers can handle.
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