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Thread: Ignition tables

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
    You need to use a timing gun and verify physically what timing your engine is seeing vs. what the ECU is reporting.

    Also I agree, putting 2 deg. past 200 doesn't make any sense and might be the reason you're seeing timing retard. Put a more sane number in there instead.

    I also agree, its probably interpolating to that colum, causing your 4 degress. But always check your comp tables because it could be a MAT or CLT compensation. Also, you mention not running a TPS, how do you have your accel enrichment based? Ive had very bad luck with MAP based enrichment, almost blew up my motor.
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  2. #77
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    I will adjust the table, but I did that after all of my runs, and it is not the reason why the motor is pulling timing.

    I'm using a M30 auto TPS....I'm using TPS based enrichment
    1997 Arctic Silver/Black M3
    CES Stage IV (651rwhp/615rwtq @ 24 psi)

    1999 Techno Violet/Dove M3
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  3. #78
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    you mentioned ealier that you were currently not using a TPS.

    If its not the timing table, the MS is pulling timing somewhere else. If you wanna send me a log and MSQ, ill take a look. dburt86@gmail.com
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  4. #79
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    Ah good ol MS

  5. #80
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    e34 m50b25 turbo
    Does anybody have good map for my setup ??? Power goals are 300-350hp on e85. You can visit my thread : http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ning-need-help


    -M50b25 non vanos stock CR 10:1, fully stock, no arp, no cometic stuffs
    -stock electrical wiring, no knocking sensors
    -Two intake CAMs setup 240/240 deg
    -Holset HX35
    -3" dowpipe and exhaust
    -38mm WG , spring 0.7bar i guess
    -Turbosmart boost controller
    -Blow-off HKS
    -stock fuel pump
    -Adjustable fuel pressure regulator
    -Injectors: Bosch redtop injectors 346cc@3bar, about 410cc@4bar
    -Wideband LSU 4.9
    -ECU MegaSquirt 2 Extra (PnP solution from k-data, called kDFi)
    -Fuel E85

    Thanks
    Last edited by haCR; 02-22-2015 at 04:58 AM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by haCR View Post
    Does anybody have good map for my setup ??? Power goals are 300-350hp on e85... -stock electrical wiring, no knocking sensors
    no knock sensors is a bad idea.

  7. #82
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    I know that isnt ideal, but if i will have good map, i think it will be ok... A lot of people dont use knock sensors in their setups...

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by haCR View Post
    I know that isnt ideal, but if i will have good map, i think it will be ok... A lot of people dont use knock sensors in their setups...
    I ran my last turbo project car without knock sensors and have a whole trophy wall of Pistons and rods. Good luck.

  9. #84
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    I see...I dont plan any crazy boost. The engine is stock m50b25 NV and im planning 350hp max..So first i will go the easiest and cheapest way - without knock sensors..
    Does anybody have any map for me ?

  10. #85
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    For 300-350 whp I think you will be fine with no knock sensors running e85. My little non-knock sensor e85 m10 running 15# of boost was running within ~2 degrees of stock ignition settings and made 250whp. Just keep the fuel to it and don't go lean and you should be fine.

    Why no ARP's head studs?
    WOT

  11. #86
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    No knock sensors isn't an issue if properly tuned. So asking for a map here will not help in this case.

  12. #87
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    I can post my map, its tuned for no knock sensors, but i just am afraid our setups our too differecnt

    my car is



    M52 2.8
    S52 cams
    M50 intake mani
    hx40/hx35 hybrid
    9to1 compression
    pump gas

    - - - Updated - - -

    not sure why the timing values are super low at the 125-150KPA columns.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  13. #88
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    Thanks.. I dont have ARPs, because im doing test how long the stock engine can manage and hold it....Then i have next plans.. Similar setup to dburt´s...
    I dont plan run these map, i just want to take some inspiration, and then do a proper tune...But im still lost...

    What is the difference in the ignition map between pump gas and e85? How should the values look like? What values are the most dangerous ones?

  14. #89
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    i dont know, but id imagine that you would see higher timing values.
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by haCR View Post
    Thanks.. I dont have ARPs, because im doing test how long the stock engine can manage and hold it....Then i have next plans.. Similar setup to dburt´s...
    I dont plan run these map, i just want to take some inspiration, and then do a proper tune...But im still lost...

    What is the difference in the ignition map between pump gas and e85? How should the values look like? What values are the most dangerous ones?
    Sounds like you have a lot of reading/learning to do before you understand the situation at hand.

  16. #91
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    Damn, i need some ethanol guru I will try to prepare some map with a friend of mine, and i will post it here then.. Thanks dburt you are so helpful... GIVE THAT MAN A COOKIE !

  17. #92
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    i love cookies
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  18. #93
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    This is basically the gunni IGN map. M50B28 8.5:1 S256 on E85. Not dyno'd yet but would be conservative for E85 as this map was for 98RON. I slightly modded it to suit.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Nutzy; 02-23-2015 at 05:20 PM.

  19. #94
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    Seems as if people are sharing much more these days. One of the biggest reasons many people have been steered away from standalone is cause it was so "hush hush" , compared to the Honda world where everyone helps , or at least tries.
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  20. #95
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    Ive been thinking of adding timing after peak TQ like you map to see if i can make my graph a little more linear. Im going to give it a shot next dyno visit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Seems as if people are sharing much more these days. One of the biggest reasons many people have been steered away from standalone is cause it was so "hush hush" , compared to the Honda world where everyone helps , or at least tries.

    Thats exactly what my perception was when i first started down this road (especaailly coming from hondas) but in reality, it seems people are pretty open about there info, its just that no one is really talking about that kind of info on this board, mainly due to the low number of people that run standalones i think.
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Seems as if people are sharing much more these days. One of the biggest reasons many people have been steered away from standalone is cause it was so "hush hush" , compared to the Honda world where everyone helps , or at least tries.
    I had a rocky start getting my standalone to work. It was running perfect on the M20, but when moving to the M50TUB28, the trigger was different. Being a more obscure ECU, no one seemed to have the trigger wheel offset and divider settings, and everything I tried just went BANG! In the end some guys on the Autronic forum got me to crank it while running a data log, then sent me a CAL file or two. Bingo! She starts. That CAL file is now shared on the site so anyone else can grab it and follow.

    It's an odd thing really, not sharing info. Why are we all here on this board if not to share (stories, info, failure and success)?

    I'm in a local beer brewing club that, despite its size, regularly takes out the Australian amateur brewing champs. We run against states 10 times our size. One of the things that surprised me when I first went to the club was how totally open everyone was with info and help. Ask a bloke for the recipe and method for his gold award winning brew, and you got it. This is key to the club success.

  22. #97
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    I think there are a couple of reasons....
    1) Some people feel that if they invest the money to get a running tune, then they would like to recoup some costs by selling their own R&D, if you will....can't fault someone for that. Not everyone thinks this way, but it is what it is

    2) No one wants to take responsibility for blowing up someone's project because they posted the tables, someone who doesn't know what they are doing plugs those into their standalone, and then want to blame the person for sharing...

    I find it ridiculous that we have to post a clause on DIY threads that say, "don't blame me if you hurt yourself." But I guess this is the American way....
    1997 Arctic Silver/Black M3
    CES Stage IV (651rwhp/615rwtq @ 24 psi)

    1999 Techno Violet/Dove M3
    Auto/Convertible and staying stock!

  23. #98
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    Ive always been taught that you can have 2 identical cars/setups but you will never have 2 identical tunes. So with that being said, you can use the info i post, but if your not using it as a starting point and just using it as a final tune, then the failure is on you, not me. I think thats kind of common sense.

    So, sharing info would be worthless because even though we have identical setups, you should be getting a proper tune anyways. Because lets face it, tunes are just as important as anything else in the setup. So if your going to just copy and paste a tune, then your just disregarding one of the most important elements of your setup and the failure that comes from that was coming your way anyway.

    And i guess thats what im trying to understand when people say they have used "this XXXX tune" for all of these different setups or changes in a setup. The only way i see the same tune working well on different setups is with A. a very conservative timing table, or B. relying heavily on the knock sensors, or C. a mix of both.

    I get the fueling part, thats kind of easy. If you know the correct calibration for the injectors and have the MAF curve, then the fueling part will take care of itself. But the timing table must stay the same, because theres no feedback other then the knock sensors.
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  24. #99
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    Nutzy: What are your pistons?

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Seems as if people are sharing much more these days. One of the biggest reasons many people have been steered away from standalone is cause it was so "hush hush" , compared to the Honda world where everyone helps , or at least tries.
    The information has been out there for a long time, and people are more than helpful....you just have to ask the questions you are having. Also many people probably post on the MS forums or the VEMS support forums, ect. ect.

    Quote Originally Posted by dburt86 View Post
    And i guess thats what im trying to understand when people say they have used "this XXXX tune" for all of these different setups or changes in a setup. The only way i see the same tune working well on different setups is with A. a very conservative timing table, or B. relying heavily on the knock sensors, or C. a mix of both.
    I think C. As long as the timing isn't too low to cause high EGTs there is really not a ton of benefit to getting it gnats nuts on the edge. Sure you may be leaving a bit of power on the table, but for most customers reliability is worth a bit of power. Having the knock sensors dialed in with the factory ECU code would be really nice. You could adjust the frequency a bit if you found it changed enough to warrant it with the higher power levels. Bolting on knock sensors is not hard, dialing them in to the right frequency, with the correct filters, timed correctly in the sweep so they are actually useful is whats complicated. At least you have a really good place to work from which will allow you to make them useful and you can use them with confidence with the OEM basecode.
    Last edited by wazzu70; 02-24-2015 at 03:06 PM.
    -Nick
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