Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 212

Thread: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

  1. #1
    Fair's Avatar
    Fair is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    3,634
    My Cars
    E36 M3, E36 LS1, E30 318

    Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

    Introduction: Many of you know of Vorshlag from our earliest Vorshlag branded project car, the E36 LS1 swap, aka: "The Alpha car". I purchased this 1993 BMW 318is chassis back in 2002 and it was developed into the first LS1 powered E36 on the planet. This project spawned a "kit" of parts that we started selling in 2007, and we've been developing, improving, and selling parts for this popular V8 swap ever since. There have been several other companies that took this idea and tried to market a kit, but most of those have since come and gone. We're still here, still selling our Vorshlag E36 LS1 swap components. Since 2002 we've become the premiere spherical top mount/camber plate supplier to many models/markets, one of the biggest AST shock dealers, and more. The "LS1 swap kit" part of Vorshlag is actually pretty small, but its something we're known for, we're passionate about, and its something I want to expand to other BMW models. Since almost all BMW motors are pretty limited with respect to ultimate power, affordable upgrades, supported EFI tuning software, and even engine reliability, the LS1 family of engines is a huge improvement to these otherwise capable chassis. Anyone that's ridden in or driven an LSx powered BMW will attest to this.


    Existing Vorshlag creations: BMW E36 LS1 and BMW E30 LS1

    As most of you know we tackled the E30 LSx swap last year (but decided not to make this into a kit) with our $2010 GRM Challenge E30. We've ran into several limitations with that chassis (brakes, rear suspension design, front strut tower placement, overall chassis rigidity, etc), most of which we're dealt with but are not easy to overcome. Since we have no desire to make an LS1 kit for this chassis, after the upcoming $2011 Challenge in October that car will likely have run its course here at Vorshlag and be sold. Sad, but true. So we need another BMW chassis to tackle with an LS1 swap...



    Enter the BMW E46. This chassis is aging gracefully and used car prices are dropping to affordable levels for running & driving 323/325/328/330 E46 coupes and sedans, plus there are E46 cars are out there with blown head gaskets or other ailments that make them VERY affordable. This chassis is more similar to the E36 chassis (which the world fell in love with) than the E30 was. The E46 is an evolutionary design from the E36, instead of the revolution that the E36 was over the E30. The E46 is slightly larger and heavier than the E36, but the looks/curves/interior is still very pleasing to the eye, and to some (me included) its the best looking 3 series ever. Some of this added room shows up under the hood (where the E30 severely lacked space), mostly in added width but also in fore-aft room, plus the fenders are roomier for larger wheel/tire room and the 330 has much larger OEM brakes (which require 17" wheels to clear).

    The larger size of the E46 should make the LSx swap even easier than the E36, and possibly even some of the same E36 LS1 swap parts would work in this newer chassis. Well, that was the hope...



    The reality is the E46 engine bay is pretty different in general layout and shape from the E36. As you can see above we've already started test fitting LSx motors with T56 transmissions into the E46 chassis, and from this initial testing we've learned a lot. Namely: nothing we currently make for the E36 LS1 fits this chassis. Although some of the same challenges are there for packaging the V8 and full length headers, new ones have arisen. So an entirely new set of motor mounts, trans crossmember, driveshaft, steering shaft and even a new oil pan will be needed to fit the LSx V8 underhood an E46 (aka: "Stage 0 kit"). Not to worry - we are already tackling this, and have a rigid timeline for offering the "Stage 0" parts needed to mount the LSx motor and T56 drivetrain into the E46.



    As you can see here, we have located a willing E46 donor chassis for this V8 swap in-house development work. This car was pretty much a classic example of a "basket case", but it will still suit our needs. It was already partially disassembled, had no OEM motor or transmission, but much of the rest of the car is intact. This is a white 2001 BMW 330Ci coupe, 5-spd, hardtop car - as in: no sunroof! I didn't even think these 330 cars existed without a sunroof, as I had never seen one (and I've looked for some time). The only other E46 cars I've found in the USA without the factory sunroof were lower-end 325/323 cars or the later ZHP 330s (2003-2005). So finding this car was like uncovering a unicorn, but a damaged unicorn. We spent considerable time, money and effort converting my blue 2001 330Ci into a no-sunroof coupe, following SCCA's rigid guidelines for DSP class. $1500 in imported BMW roof/roof bow/headliner and 2 weeks of work later we had a no-sunroof '01 330 Coupe. So this white car, even with all of its flaws, was a unique find.



    And flaws it has aplenty. The rear subframe has ripped itself out of the trunk floor at one of the 4 attachment points, then was driven this way for a good long time, so it needs substantial rear trunk/chassis repair. BMW stopped covering these issues under warranty years ago, but they do sell a repair kit - which is basically a new trunk floor panel and some other bits that tend to fail. To most folks this would mean $3500+ in shop repairs, most of that in labor (diff and subframe comes out, trunk floor comes out, new panel welded in, other updates are made), but we're industrious and can tackle it! ("ignorance is bliss"?) The car has also been robbed of much of the engine harness/DME wiring, all of the sub-computers, HVAC components, front seats, radio/amp, OEM fuel tank, stock wheels and a little more. But a lot of the interior and wiring is intact, and after a couple weekend days of cleaning/clay barring the exterior, pressure washing the filthy engine bay, and removing/cleaning/re-assembling the interior, it is looking more like a real car again. The exterior is straight and doesn't need paint or body repair (other than some light PDR), which is a huge plus. I located the previous owner and we're seeing about buying the fuel tank back as well as a few other missing items that would save us some work hunting down replacements.



    So with the rear trunk floor repaired, and a little more work beyond our Stage 0 parts development, this chassis could be made into a running, driving car again - after we've optimized the driveline installation parts. That is really our number one goal: making the "Stage 0" parts to get the motor + trans located into this chassis, and building production full length headers. You can get a stand-alone LSx engine harness into a car in a weekend, that part is easy. Its making all of the factory gauges, a/c, warning lights and OBDII systems work that is a nightmare. Wiring the LSx engine computer perfectly into a BMW sub-systems isn't our specialty, and never has been. Its tedious, time consuming work that is best handled on a car by car basis, due to the many changes to a given chassis throughout a build generation. I've done it a few times and a one-size-fits-all, 100% plug-n-play wiring solution is neither possible or "kitable" for the E36, and the E46 is so much more challenging with all of the integration of subsystems into the DME that BMW incorporated. Some people/shops thrive on this type of work, and more power to them.

    But for a "mostly-streetable" car, or a track-only car, or even a partial street/track car, the wiring work needed to make the engine run is fairly simple, and only a small number of wires are needed to tie into the chassis itself. In most BMWs (E30, E36) there are separate computers for ABS and HVAC and other "body" systems, but these later CANBUS cars like the E46, more of that sub-system work is handled by the main BMW DME computer. So the E46 is a new challenge, but we have some solutions in store for the most critical functionality. We need to have a driving test mule to verify the viability of the E46 330 rear halfshafts, stock brakes and other OEM bits with the LS1 drivetrain installed. We'd hardly expect anyone to buy our Stage 0 kit if there were still so many other OEM driveline parts being used that were untested. So this car can and will run, but as what?

    One other thing to note: our 2001 Mustang GT 5.0 6-spd test mule that we've been using to develop suspension parts for the S197, by tracking it in NASA TTB class and autocrossing in SCCA STX class, has had a recent change of purpose: This car will no longer be tracked. You can read about that in the latest post in that car's build thread (on Vorshlag, Corner-Carvers, SCCA Forums, or roadraceautox.com).

    So I am, as of this week, currently in need of another track car - which this white 330 LSx could fill. Yes, we have the LSx E30 that can technically be run in NASA TTU (although not competitively without some additional $ invested), but its eating T5 transmission at an alarming rate, so we're saving it for UTCC in July and GRM Challenge autocross/drag race event in October. The proper fix for that issue is a T56 or some other beefier transmission, which the GRM budget doesn't allow for. Also, my blue 2001 330 Ci we have (formerly used in DSP class) is not being sold, but being converted back into a dedicated NASA TT car. It happens to be base classed very well in NASA TTE, and our build up for TTD class looks pretty unstoppable (sets track records in TTD at will). But this blue car is really my wife's main TT car. She's a competitive racer herself, and "sharing" a single car for Time Trial use at a NASA weekend is less than ideal for either of us or the car in question.

    So this white 330 with an LS1 installed could become my personal NASA TT/track car. NASA Time Trial use is great for chassis/drivetrain testing, as the competition element there would push us to develop the car into a more capable track vehicle. But what class do we build it for? As with any engine swapped chassis, it would need a "new base classing" from the NASA TT director if we hoped to enter it in the normal TTA-TTF classes. But for an LS1 swap, those re-classings tend to be pretty painful, and then we're back to playing my least favorite "pay with points" mod game. So we need to look at TTS, TTU and TTR. Otherwise this could just become a "fun street car" type of build, which could be run at HPDE events. These "class-less" HPDE cars tend to bore me fairly soon, though, just as running around in HPDEs without any rhyme or reason tends to bore me. The competition element in NASA TT is what brought me back to doing track events, so TT is where it needs to be run, for track use.

    *** THIS IS WHERE WE WANT YOUR INPUT ***

    That's right, we want you to weigh in with your choice. Please look at the three possible paths for this car below and let us know which you would chose - or lay out another option, if you feel we have missed something.

    Three Test Car Options

    1. Option one is an all-out NASA TTU race car. Build the car to the limit of the TTU class. Power to weight ratio of 5.5 lbs per hp, which means we'd shoot for a race weight with cage + driver of 2800 lbs (gutted interior, composite panels, lexan, etc), so we'd need to make a motor with 509 whp to max out the power-to-weight. That means we'd need to build a fairly stout ~7.0L LSx motor (again), a TR-6060 trans (The E36 Alpha's 500 whp 7 liter eventually broke the bone stock T56), Accusump/oiling improvements, and flare the body for wide Hoosier race rubber (315mm out back, minimum). This build would match more of the "final" installment of our E36 Alpha car, shown below. The budget would quickly creep past $30K or more, and consumables would be pricey (big Hoosiers, expensive motor, etc). Already owning 5 race cars already, this would be a bit of a stretch for me, but it would be pretty damn fun.



    2. Option 2 is a no compromise "Super street car". Big LS1 motor, working A/C and ABS, all of the OEM gauges, all of the creature comforts. The automatic climate control and factory ABS would be extremely difficult to integrate (I will explain more in another post), as these systems all tie into the main BMW DME computer. Another hurdle is the CAN-BUS wiring, so an outside CAN-BUS wiring guru would be needed to have the LS1's computer talk to the BMW DME, to allow these systems to function. Probably a black box in between to interpret and wash the signals from the LS1 computer to the BMW computer and back, eating thousands of dollars in tuning and software work. The car would weigh in the 3200-3300 pounds range with driver, have a nice stereo, 4 seats, but be of little use on a road course. I'm not too thrilled with option 2, but this is what a lot of potential customers think they want when they are looking at our LS1 kits (but very few of them ever actually make this mythical "super street car").

    3. Build a dual purpose street/track car for NASA TTS. Make it have most of the dash, working windows, wipers, lights, signals, horn, a very basic heater, and license and inspect the finished car for some street fun. In the end its really built for the track around something like the NASA TTS class rules and limits, but it can also be used (and tested) under real world street use. No flares (saves mucho time/effort/money), no huge/crazy tires/mods, just basic AST coilover shocks, reasonably sized R comp tires on decent wheels, all the factory steel and glass, OEM based brakes (E46 330 has 13" front rotors already), etc.



    The E46 non-M can fit 18x10s with 265mm rubber under just rolled fenders, like the car above had before we flared the fenders to clear 1" wider 285s. This dual-purpose street/track build [B]was what the E36 Alpha car was originally (for the first 2 years) with a used 2002 Camaro 5.7 LS1, and it worked great in this role (see below) logging both street and autocross miles.



    This third option is more appealing to me, as it revolves around much more achievable TTS class limits, which has a higher minimum weight for the power we'd shoot for. This means we could leave the interior installed, and add something like a 4-point roll bar/harnesses/2 race seats for safety. Otherwise we'd leave it with carpet, door panels, and maybe even a radio. With some interior left in, and an inspection sticker and tags, we could drive it to In-n-Out Burger on nice nights, or to Cars and Coffee car shows here in town, as well as take it to the track if we wanted to avoid towing our enclosed rig to an event.

    For NASA, TTS is like TTU and TTR - these top 3 Time Trial classes do away with the (often times painful) "base classing" of your car and the tedious "points" system, where you use available points to "buy" mods for your build, yet still have to live within a set power-to-weight ratio, limits for tires, a base weight assigned to your car, etc. TTS/U/R are all power-to-weight based, with some modifiers for big things like tire width, compounds (slicks vs DOT Rs), and number of doors - more "high level" performance impacts, rather than counting every point for every bolt-on you want to do. So the rules are easier to live with.

    Today we weighed my blue 2001 BMW 330 coupe at 3167 lbs. This with the stock seats back in, stock battery, back in, fully functional HVAC, the HK radio + amps, a 62 lb roll bar, all 6 of the OEM airbags, 18x10s and 265 Yokohamas. The race seats lop 100 lbs off of that, and the A/C and airbags drop even more (we had it down under 3000 lbs at one point, with the a/c still installed). The white 330 weighed in at 2090 lbs yesterday, missing the drivetrain and front seats. This means I suspect we could get an "option 3" track/street LS1 E46 into the 2950/3000 lbs range, sans driver. The power-to-weight ratio for TTS is 8.7 lbs/hp (without modifiers), so with race weight with driver of 3150 lbs that gives us a max power number of 362 whp. That power level is very easily achieved with a very mild 5.7L LSx build, which we can whip up pretty quickly. That also means: reliable and affordable (both popular attributes!)

    This street/track TTS option and that power/weight goal would allow us to keep much of the interior, the power windows, all of the OEM lights, and the other basics needed for "street legality", while not saddling us with the pain and expense of integrating the automated climate control or ABS/ESC into the (non-existent) BMW DME. I have a good solution for the ABS, that I derived from working on McCall's Z3 this past weekend, but I'll cover that in another post. This type of semi-street/dedicated track car is what most of our E36 LS1 kit customers actually end up building. Some compromises in creature comforts, but a terror on track and still streetable enough to drive to/from track events and even around town for extra fun. We have solutions to the OBD-II inspection issues, that are actually quite easy (forces the inspectors to do a regular "sniffer" emissions test on the car, which it can pass easily with good catalysts).

    So, let us know what you think of the E46 LS1 kit, and which way we should go for the running/driving test mule. Stay tuned (see: thread tools/subscribe to thread) for more updates in the coming months. Also, I'm still looking for a signature ‘look’ for the various Vorshlag race cars (that incorporates the updated VOMO logo) and need a graphic designer. If that's something you're good at, please contact me.

    Thanks!
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    RTP Area, NC
    Posts
    1,862
    My Cars
    2010 335i
    Option 3 seems like something a lot of people would want to do, myself included.

    I have a friend with a 330i that would have done this a while back, wiring killed it for him though, good luck finding some sort of system that could pass a sniffer. My state is plug in only or fail, would be great to see a LS e46 pass around here.
    2010 - BMW 335i M-Sport - Lemans Blue Metallic
    BMW PPK2, JB4 with NLS, Backend Flash, BMW PP Exhaust, Misc Appearance Mods, Boost Addictions Diff Brace, BMS DCIs, BMS Clutch Stop, VRSF Catless DPs

    Previous:
    1995 M3
    1998 323is

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    1,234
    My Cars
    99 528iT
    I like option 3, and I can't wait to see this done.
    :: 1999 BMW 528iT ::
    LS3 / T56 swapped

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    765
    My Cars
    2008 535i
    Option 2. Would be nice to have the newer E46 chassis with Ls1 power for a super nice daily / occasional track monster.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Poland,ME,USA
    Posts
    489
    My Cars
    1998 m3 3/4/5 LS1/t56
    3rd option seems like it would be great, a 330 sedan with a slightly built lsx would be a fun sleeper.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    1,762
    My Cars
    04 Allroad, F20c Lotus 7
    CAN-BUS is just not that painful to work with. I have some great experience in that area and I don't think you would be in for that much of an investment.

    however I don't know how much you could then resell an offering like that - swap market being relatively small for such a good sized investment.

    I'm not familiar with the NASA specs, I assume TTU is similar to SCCAs XP class? To be competitive in that class you have to have a TRUE race car. I"m a big fan of dual purpose cars so i'd vote for option 2 or 3. I'd imagine a well setup mostly full-interior ls1 e46 with good suspension and slicks would hang out towards the top of a regional all-out class but obviously not at a national level...

    From a marketing perspective I think a dual-purpose car would go farther to showcase your products too.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Plymouth, MI
    Posts
    829
    My Cars
    '88 635 CSi, '09 X5 4.8
    I vote for Option #2.

    1) I have a E36 M3 GTS3 car so no need for another track car, and honestly see no 'need' for that much power on the track (always a nice to have though).

    2) My daily driver is a 2001 330i Sport with 13Xk miles which I have been seriously considering doing an LSX swap as soon as I have any signifcant motor or tranny troubles (or sooner if budgets permit).

    3) As you've seen with the E36, the basic packaging (mountes, headers, steering shaft, ...) and engine specific wiring issues aren't too difficult for others to replicate (with varying degrees of sophistication). However the CANBUS issues are beyond the average do it yourselfer or even most shops, so it is likely that you would still sell this to people even if they chose to develop their own mounts, etc.

    Looking forward to seeing the results!
    Last edited by ssburns; 05-12-2011 at 07:55 AM.
    Shea Burns

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Leicester, MASSHOLE
    Posts
    209
    My Cars
    99 323i?
    Another vote for Option #3

    I just bought a 2000 323iT with full intention of doing a LSx swap. What are the issues you are seeing with the oil pan? I'm guessing an f-body oil pan would be the closest stock pan that might work. Not sure how much of a pain it would be to try and keep the stock gauges. I am thinking about going the aftermarket gauge route.

    here are a few things I am trying to figure out to make this swap a street driven car, which I plan the car to be almost 100% of the time.

    -The climate control (including AC would be nice), Maybe switching to the manual (dial controls) would eliminate this issue. Not sure what is involved in doing this switch. I plan on doing some more research.
    -Turn signals, headlights, wipers, windows, etc. I don't see an issue with this.
    -Headers, just like the E36 I know that some sort of custom headers will be needed.
    - Now that you have stated issues about the oil pan.
    - Radiator, not sure if a stock one would be enough for the LSx but I'm guessing it would work.
    -ABS, not too concerned about this. I have had plenty of vehicles without abs and it doesn't bother me.

    Just a few things I can think of for now. I am sure once I start actually doing the swap problems will arise.
    When are you planning to release the "Stage 0". If it would be in near future I would be very interested in purchasing such kit.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    Posts
    1,433
    My Cars
    No racecars...
    Option #1... lets see something crazy!!!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dallas, Ga 30132
    Posts
    1,337
    My Cars
    97M3.4.5,EG,YZF
    Thoughts....
    I like option 3 the best. Get it driving, with the minimum ancillaries required for street use (signals,heat,windows,gauges). That would get me interested in buying a kit. Then as solutions for other thing like A/C can come as they are solved, since they are not paramount. Then let the car evolve, add more power, break stuff/ fortify, then if it ends up as option #1 in the long run, so be it, it'd be fun to watch.

    I'm finally nearing the position where I can go for a swap after so many years of employment woes. Depending on how the progression goes on this kit, i would gladly sell my E36 M3, to swap an LS in an E46.... I've been saying that for years, it just has to be streetable. I'm dying to see how stuff fits in the newer chassis,....and I have passed up on some killer E46 deals, simply because there is a huge question mark as to when the hardware will be come available. I think there is enough folks out there that could pin down the electronics over time.

  11. #11
    Fair's Avatar
    Fair is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    3,634
    My Cars
    E36 M3, E36 LS1, E30 318
    Quote Originally Posted by greenmonster138 View Post
    Another vote for Option #3

    I just bought a 2000 323iT with full intention of doing a LSx swap. What are the issues you are seeing with the oil pan? I'm guessing an f-body oil pan would be the closest stock pan that might work.
    Well I can assure you that a Camaro LS1 pan does not fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenmonster138 View Post
    Not sure how much of a pain it would be to try and keep the stock gauges. I am thinking about going the aftermarket gauge route.
    I think we can make them work... I have hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenmonster138 View Post
    here are a few things I am trying to figure out to make this swap a street driven car, which I plan the car to be almost 100% of the time.

    -The climate control (including AC would be nice), Maybe switching to the manual (dial controls) would eliminate this issue. Not sure what is involved in doing this switch. I plan on doing some more research.
    Agreed. We're thinking along the same lines. Automatic climate control = difficult, but manual controls? We can retrofit something...

    Quote Originally Posted by greenmonster138 View Post
    -Turn signals, headlights, wipers, windows, etc. I don't see an issue with this.
    -Headers, just like the E36 I know that some sort of custom headers will be needed.
    - Now that you have stated issues about the oil pan.
    - Radiator, not sure if a stock one would be enough for the LSx but I'm guessing it would work.
    We have a pan that fits. Its not an OEM LSx oilpan but it IS a readily available part. More soon on this as we verify/finish the motor mounts.

    The stock radiator should work, and we'll mock-up with that, but the Mishimoto fabricated aluminum radiators are too affordable not to upgrade. Like $275 or less, they bolt in, have more capacity, and since they are 100% aluminum (no plastic) they are MORE RELIABLE THAN OEM BMW RADIATORS. We used a stock 6 cyl radiator in the Alpha car for years, both street and race, but the Mishimoto went in when the 488 whp 7.0L did. Never had cooling issues with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenmonster138 View Post
    -ABS, not too concerned about this. I have had plenty of vehicles without abs and it doesn't bother me.
    Well ours will have ABS, somehow

    Quote Originally Posted by lowside67 View Post
    Option #1... lets see something crazy!!!
    Well it might be easier to start with a "option 3" car and morph into an "option 1" race car.
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Leicester, MASSHOLE
    Posts
    209
    My Cars
    99 323i?
    I'm guessing maybe something like the Autokraft oil pan might work?

    I would really be interested in seeing what would be needed to get the stock gauges to work. I'm guessing you will have to keep the stock BMW ECU to keep them working. It would be really great if you could find a way to run them without the need for any BMW ECUs and just run the GM ECU.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    1,762
    My Cars
    04 Allroad, F20c Lotus 7
    Quote Originally Posted by greenmonster138 View Post
    I'm guessing maybe something like the Autokraft oil pan might work?

    I would really be interested in seeing what would be needed to get the stock gauges to work. I'm guessing you will have to keep the stock BMW ECU to keep them working. It would be really great if you could find a way to run them without the need for any BMW ECUs and just run the GM ECU.
    nah, no easy way to keep the BMW ecu and have it work. I imagine the simplest way to do it is to have a CAN BUS module that receives input of the needed gauge inputs (RPM mainly) and then converts it to a CAN signal and puts itself on the CAN bus and mimics the ID of the ECU so the cluster thinks it's talking to the original ECU. RPM and the other basic OBD 2 functions are well docuemented - finding the CAN ID of the ECU would be a simple measure as well. the hard part would be all the other stuff that is required for climate control, ABS & related. you basically pop a CAN monitor into the network via the obd2 port and monitor everything while you run through all the iterations of the climate & ABS systems and then figure out what inputs are needed and how they need to be published to the bus and then replicate that.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Leicester, MASSHOLE
    Posts
    209
    My Cars
    99 323i?
    Tongboy, Sounds like a big PITA to me.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Auburn, GA
    Posts
    3,596
    My Cars
    Chevy, xBMW's, LS Volvo
    I say Option 2, as thats whats happening to my Volvo wagon. ~330 whp, auto trans, will retain A/C, ABS, and all other factory functionality. Custom suspension to come either later this year, or next year depnding on funds. Perfect daily driver. Great fuel economy (better than stock), more reliable, cheaper replacement parts, WAY more low-end torque. Win win win.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    386
    My Cars
    E30, E36, E46
    Sounds more like you're going to have to start w/ Option 3 and then choose to take it in either the all-out track monster or refined daily driver directions. I think the CAN BUS is the most intimidating part of this project for a DIYer like myself, and I'd love for someone to come up with a solution.

    The purists will hate this, but I've been eyeing my ZHP ever since you announced that you'd put an LS into an E46. I'd love to have twice the power with none of the frailty of that engine. Everything else on the car is great.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Grand Haven, Michigan
    Posts
    31
    My Cars
    2001 330ci, 2003 Dodge
    Go with option 2 or 3. I would like to be the first in line for a set of custom headers. I have my LS2 in using a muscle car oil pan from gm performance. The car is going down this weekend to get the motor mounts and cross member built. I was simply going to do the easy get the car moving aproach and get the most basic functions working and worry about the rest as i go. If you guys can get some ideas on parts i would be willing to work with you and get things moving on this project. Give me a call 616 638 8645. Or ill try and get ahold of you guys here in the next week or so...just been super busy. Gotta make some serious money to get this project off the ground. Also a custom shifter is going to have to be used. The gto shifter is too far back and the f body ls1 shifter is a little to far forward so a custom one will have to be fabed up.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Milwaukee
    Posts
    14
    My Cars
    02 330Ci, 93 RX7
    Option 3.

    I want a car that I can drive to an event in relative comfort. I don't want a poor mans "car X". I think attempting via option 2 to try to replicate the luxury AND performance of whatever car or to surpass it for less is starting off in the wrong direction. As many people that say they want it too usually end up realizing that achieving that goal is going to cost much more than they thought.

    DO WANT.

    -Basic HVAC. As long as it gets hot and and gets cold. I don't need the auto system and prefer something more simple.

    -Fully functioning gauges. OEM appearance or close to it would be best.

    -Body functions. Keyless entry, power locks/windows etc.

    -OBDII functionality or at least the ability to pass some kind of emissions testing.
    Last edited by R33GTR; 05-20-2011 at 10:14 AM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    3
    My Cars
    2002 E46 325i 5MT
    Option 3 please. I've been waiting for someone to tackle this one for years, to the point that many times I've considered downgrading to an E36 just so I could get this engine in a BMW.

    I'm with R33GRT, I'd love to see something where enough works right that it could be daily driven without major annoyance (HVAC, important gauges) and could pass a plug test. The second part will require either piggybacking the OEM ECU or using parts from a late-model LSx car (equal or greater than the year of the chassis IIRC). I'd bet using the GM ECU and figuring out the gauges would be easier than making the BMW ECU happy.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Solihull UK
    Posts
    115
    My Cars
    BMW 357i
    Have you guys got a solution for the tacho & coolant temp guages?? I'm doing this conversion in the UK (here's my build thread http://www.bimmerforums.co.uk/forum/...048/page9.html ) & could really do with an interface for them

    Blair

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    56
    My Cars
    1993 E36 6.0L
    Could it be possible to use a gen4 engine/ECM and add it to the CAN loop? I don't know if the BMW CANbus is in a loop like GM stuff is, but isn't the CAN code universal across the board since generic scan tools can read both? Just thinking out loud here.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Solihull UK
    Posts
    115
    My Cars
    BMW 357i
    No it's not that simple even can bus from an early to late model of the same type of car can vary....

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Southern Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    130
    My Cars
    none, sadly
    my choice, number 2, because it will work out all of the bugs for those who want it but those who want less creature comforts can leave those parts out.

    ps. its been a month, wondering if there is any progress?

  24. #24
    Fair's Avatar
    Fair is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    3,634
    My Cars
    E36 M3, E36 LS1, E30 318
    Project Update for July 25, 2011: Wow, its been two months since my last update? Dang, sorry guys. Well, we have been severely swamped since then, and are right in the middle of moving to a much larger shop, but we actually did some work on this car in June. Let's see...

    Let me start off by saying I'm not a fan of replacing the stock K-member for an engine swap unless absolutely necessary, and neither are the rules makers for many racing sanctioning bodies, so we are going to make the LS1+T56 drivetrain fit the car with the OEM crossmember intact. Sure, somebody will pipe up and say they can make a crossmember that's affordable, rigid, fits better, holds the engine better, has more clearance with this or that, saves 15 pounds, and makes your butt look smaller - but there are ALWAYS compromises when you use a non-stock crossmember, not just for racing class rules. Some of the kits I've seen had big compromises with respect to tubular crossmembers, with sketchy under-engineering or the other way - "steel-itis" (where they just throw a bunch of steel at it). Sometimes its a beautifully fabbed crossmember that costs $1500, so it costs you. And you have to remember that the pick-up points for the front suspension tie into this, as does the steering rack. So not only is the crossmember securing the drivetrain, its taking all of the suspension and braking loads, too. Its pretty important piece of engineering, and the stock front crossmembers (at least) on an E46 BMW aren't at all bad.

    This means we are going to keep an eye on the OEM front crossmember for clearance to the oil pan and headers, which is nothing new to us. The initial mock-ups we did in May were using a complete/dressed 5.7L Camaro LS1 and T56 trans, with the '98-02 Camaro oil pan and front accessory drives. We figured out pretty quickly that this relatively long "rear sump" oil pan wasn't going to work in the E46 chassis with this V8 motor, as the engine bay layout is enough different on the E46 vs the E36 to make the barely-E36-swap-friendly Camaro LS1 pan not fit. We had the crossmember dropped down a few inches in those early mock-up pics, but I had some ideas in mind. Since then we did some looking, took a gamble, ordered an oil pan that just came to the market, and found a solution that fits beautifully for this swap - that's both affordable and very well built.



    This LS-fit oil pan has the same capacity but has a shorter length rear sump section, that with this drivetrain clears the crossmember by several inches (unlike the various LS1, LS2 and truck LSx pans we tested with; it even fits better than the Camaro pan in the E36). Its the only one we have found that has the right dimensions fore-aft for the oil pan sump and its still pretty short and flat at the front of the oil pan. So we've got this pan on our mock-up motor and put the drivetrain in the engine bay where it optimizes placement to clear the oil pan sump at the back, is level with the crossmember underneath as well, has good firewall clearance (but still big rearward engine set-back), and also clears the stock steering shaft and has the best fit for exhaust headers. Hours of measuring, mocking, angling, tilting, and testing to finally get the drivetrain where I was happy.



    A few more hours and the crossmember was built in the car, with a measured "spacer block" under the oilpan. This sets the drivetrain angles and fire-aft plus lateral locations, and most important - it got the mock-up drivetrain off the floor and in the ca,r so we can move the Alpha car to the new shop easier. As you can see we have the prototype trans crossmember built and bolted in, as well as most of the motor mount components in place - another 3-4 hours and those will be complete. Primary bends, merge collectors, and exhaust port flanges are here and also awaiting some fabrication time (once we are moved into our new shop) to get the prototype headers built. Then we'll make a driveshaft and get a real engine in there (just a mock-up block/headers/trans in there right now).



    Last month I also bought a rolled-over 2005 BMW 330Ci, which was chock full of good parts we needed. I got it primarily for the stock, low mileage drivetrain (to re-use the M54 in my blue '01 330 track car). As a bonus we also got many odds and ends that were not on this white '01 330 Alpha car when I bought it. The guys here at Vorshlag spent about 2 days and salvaged the entire wiring harness, fuel tank, HVAC system, dash, gauge cluster, rear subframe assembly brake-to-brake, and more, then I hauled the wrecked chassis off to the scrap yard. That score of spare E46 330 parts will help greatly in getting this white Alpha car, which is very parts deficient, back together and more complete. The '05 M54 is already in the blue 330, now awaiting a new prototype M54 balancer before it fires up. Win, win.



    More soon,
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Dallas, Ga 30132
    Posts
    1,337
    My Cars
    97M3.4.5,EG,YZF
    That Holley pan looks good...Did you try the GMPP Muscle Car Pan?

Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •