Oil consumption after CCV replacement

[bmwdirtracer]

All customer BMWs get the 5/50 Edge at our shop, and none of our regulars have ever reported adding any oil between 6k oil changes, except those with big leaks who just won't fix the leaks.

That's quite a few cars that I see regularly; but remember too that we don't have CCV failures in Hawaii. I've tried hard to find failures, using my slack-tube, but all I keep finding is torn/melted oil-return hoses. (The smoke machine finds them, every time)

[mahmoudh]

Only that it would seem to suggest that perhaps the majority of the consumption you are seeing is occurring when the engine is cold. When the weather is colder, warm-up takes longer, and thus more oil is consumed. I would be curious to see if introducing more vacuum had an effect.

O2Pilot,
Thanks. I checked the CCV drain hose to the dipstick tube and and it is bone dry - no sign of any oil from recent warm months or previous winter.
My CCV does not appear to do any oil separation, whether in warm months when it consumes 1 qt per 1500-2200 nor during the cold months when it consumes a quart every 600-700 miles.
Do you have oil in your CCV drain tube since adding vaccum to the CCV?
Mahmoud

...

02 pilot and mahmouth; have either of you considered trying a 5/50 oil, or even BMW's own 10/60, just once? (I run Castrol Syntec Edge 5/50 in customer cars, and Edge 20/50 in my old BMWs).

...?

Chris,
Thanks. I did think about using a heavier oil but am not sure which one to try. After you posted, I looked into the Castrol 5/50 which they claim replaces Edge 20/50.
The 10/60 seems a bit of an overkill and is expensive. Like O2Pilot, I am also in NY but downstate and am hesitant to use in the Winter.

I also read on a forum that Royal Purple was found to seal better and reduce Blowby gases 23% - any experience with this oil?

The experiences with my 2001 seem to indicate that most blowby occurs when the car is cold and ring gaps are larger.
I think all season warm temperatures in Hawaii cause E39s to produce minimal blowby and may be why CCV failures are rare there as they are barely used.

Mahmoud

[mahmoudh]

All customer BMWs get the 5/50 Edge at our shop, and none of our regulars have ever reported adding any oil between 6k oil changes, except those with big leaks who just won't fix the leaks.

O2Pilot - Any updates?

Saw post at link below by crdiscoverer where high oil consumption in stop and go traffic was fixed by replacing the valve stem seals.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1704403

I am not sure his case is identical to mine since my oil consumption improved when it's warm- Unless my seals expand more in the warmth

Chris,
Autozone just put Castrol 5/50 on sale and I was thinking to pick up 10 qts for the Winter Oil change and winter top ups.

[Crescent]

I had a customer's car causing oil consumption after ccv replacement (1 qt in 700 miles/1 week). Running manifold vacuum to the nipple on the oil seperator solved the problem. I wanted to add this in here.
While replicating the problem I found getting on the brakes really hard from high speed and/or closed throttle downhill then getting on the gas caused a lot of smoke. After running vacuum line and fixing all other oil leaks reduced oil consumption to approx. 1/2 qt 6000 miles.
Definitely worth a try before deciding to valve stem seals or such.

[02Pilot]

Good to hear a corroborating account, Crescent - thanks.

No real updates on my end - just driving the car. Got about a thousand miles on the current fill of M1 10w40HM (ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4, heavy in-grade). Last fill was M1 10w30HM, which saw oil consumption at around 1qt/2200 miles, or roughly three times less than before the mod. We'll see how this stuff does.

[mahmoudh]

Crescent,
Thanks for the post.

The fact that there is never oil in my CCV drain hose to dipstick tube - during summer (1 qt/1600-2200 miles) or during winter (1 qt/600-700 miles) - is an indication the oil separator is not doing its job - and may be because of lower vaccum at the CCV during start/stop driving?

On a 2002 530i I acquired last fall, it also has no oil in its new CCV drain hose. I did not use it much last winter and did not track oil usage then.

O2Pilot,
Thanks for the update. Are you seeing oil now in your CCV drain hose?

Chris,
I am wondering if the heavier oils reduce consumption because they seal better and reduce blow by but also because it is more easily separated? I guess I will find out once I try it.

[02Pilot]

I always had evidence of oil in the drain tube, but the increased flow of crankcase gases through the separator would theoretically increase the amount of oil being condensed and returned to the pan (to a point, obviously; too much flow would eventually result in nothing being separated). Bear in mind that the amount separated is not going to be a lot; indeed, based on my experiences and research, my contention at this point is that oil is being burned primarily after leaking past the valve seals and the rings into the cylinders, not being drawn into the intake via the CCV. Adding vacuum to the crankcase in high cylinder vacuum situations simply helps to alleviate this by balancing the vacuum differential between crankcase and cylinder.

Where I do see a difference is in the tube running from the valve cover to the separator - previously I had the usual build-up of oil and emulsion visible right around the valve cover outlet; now I have none of this. The line is entirely clear, which makes me feel a lot better about avoiding any sort of freezing problems come winter. Yes, the diaphragm is after the point at which the additional vacuum is introduced, so it doesn't see any more than it did previously, but simply pulling that much more moisture out of the system through the new line should help reduce the chances of it even getting to the diaphragm in the first place.

[mahmoudh]

Hmm. - It is certainly puzzling why there is no oil in my new CCV drain hose after almost a year even though blow-by flow at the VCG outlet/CCV inlet is healthy. Any ideas or suggestions?

...
While replicating the problem I found getting on the brakes really hard from high speed and/or closed throttle downhill then getting on the gas caused a lot of smoke. After running vacuum line and fixing all other oil leaks reduced oil consumption to approx. 1/2 qt 6000 miles...

Got to thinking about this statement and I thought the brake master cylinder does have a vaccum connection to the intake which is supposed to make it softer. Your adding another vaccum connection to the CCV should provide less vaccum at the brake and make it even harder. Not sure I understand this. Can you provide some more detail?

[02Pilot]

Got to thinking about this statement and I thought the brake master cylinder does have a vaccum connection to the intake which is supposed to make it softer. Your adding another vaccum connection to the CCV should provide less vaccum at the brake and make it even harder. Not sure I understand this. Can you provide some more detail?

This is a non-issue. All the vacuum does in the brake booster is exert force on a diaphragm to assist the pushrod in the direct of travel when the brake pedal is pressed. Essentially, once the vacuum is established in the booster, all the line to the intake does is ensure that it remains in place. There's a one-way check valve to make sure it stays high, and IIRC the M54 has a venturi incorporated into the valve that increases the vacuum at the booster.

Put another way, the vacuum in the booster is relatively static by design (so that you have a consistent amount of brake assist), while the vacuum in the intake is dynamic based upon the current throttle position. Adding a small vacuum line to the intake would have no measurable effect on vacuum at the booster.

[mahmoudh]

I did not mean for the thread to go off topic and agree it should be a non-issue based on your explanation.

[dworthy]

Putting a bump on this since it is always good info. Too bad we cannot post it up in a sticky... Just askin'

[02Pilot]

Since you bumped it, I'll give a little update. Oil consumption (running M1 10w40 HM) is now down to 1qt/3500 miles, a very considerable improvement. The car continues to run just fine.

[dworthy]

That is acceptable amount of burn, I am sure that it will still improve as you continue to clean out the motor.

[02Pilot]

The motor's quite clean already. There's no evidence of sludging anywhere except for a light coating of the coldest parts of the engine (valve cover, top of the timing chain cover). I doubt that will be touched by any chemical cleaning process, but it won't be added to now that I'm pulling more vacuum in the crankcase. Changing oils can result in some transient consumption, so hopefully things will settle into a predictable pattern, as I intend to stick with this oil for a while.

[mahmoudh]

Since you bumped it, I'll give a little update. Oil consumption (running M1 10w40 HM) is now down to 1qt/3500 miles, a very considerable improvement. The car continues to run just fine.

The update on my stock 2001 M54B30 is that I was able to get over 2300 miles after an oil change at the last add a quart warning a few months back. I did add another quart after the 2300 miles and plan to do an oil change at next oil level warning.

Combining the data from O2Pilot and my car, I am wondering how much of that improvement is as a result of warm weather and how much due to more vacuum.

[02Pilot]

Combining the data from O2Pilot and my car, I am wondering how much of that improvement is as a result of warm weather and how much due to more vacuum.

Well, we're going to find out pretty soon. It's going to get colder before it gets warmer around here.

[ajdroberts]

I'm a new reader here as I'm just about to buy a 530iT - one of the very last = and want to anticipate any problems I may be getting (having had more than my fair share with an M62 735 over the past few years.

The quality of this thread has been fascinating, better than any detective story, and I'm really hoping that the main contributors will be able to come to an agreed solution.

O2Pilot - how's the winter been treating your oil consumption and would you perhaps be able to post a summative, downloadable pdf of your vacuum modification?

Andyrob

[Doru]

O2Pilot, any updates how the oil consumption was doing throughout the winter? Also, the hose you used to connect the 2 unused(capped) ports are the same size as #4 in this diagram: http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...03&hg=11&fg=45 ? How is the fuel consumption? Improved, same or worse after the mod and 1 year of testing? Thanks 73.png

[02Pilot]

I'm going to post a full update when I hit my next OCI in about 1k miles - watch this space. In short, however, results as far as oil consumption thus far have continued to be positive, and increasingly so, in spite of a long, cold winter. Fuel consumption has held pretty steady.

I can't say for sure what the diameter of the hose I used is, but it is small - about what you'd expect for a small vacuum control line.

[OrientBlau]

I'm going to post a full update when I hit my next OCI in about 1k miles - watch this space. In short, however, results as far as oil consumption thus far have continued to be positive, and increasingly so, in spite of a long, cold winter. Fuel consumption has held pretty steady.

I can't say for sure what the diameter of the hose I used is, but it is small - about what you'd expect for a small vacuum control line.

Just got done reading this thread. Very informative.

Although I had no symptoms of a bad CCV, around 55K I DIY'ed the entire CCV with the cold climate version. The cold weather version is identical to the regular version except for foam around the hoses and a thinner foam casing around the oil separator itself. Even though the CCV system appeared to be operating as designed, the hoses were quite brittle and blroke easily while being removed. I suggest this repair as necessary PM when you get over 40-50K.

My DIY included not only the new CCV kit, but I also replaced the air distributor (where CCV vents oil out to intake), the updated oil dipstick (no longer concentric tubing), DISA, ICV, boots, and TB gasket. Every pipe connection was double checked and torqued when necessary. Even the very tight fit of the lower hose which can be difficult to click into place at the bottom of the OS was checked.

Shortly after the CCV repair, I too, began noticing an increase in oil consumption. I thought it was my imagination, but after a full oil change with 7 QTs added, there was still substantial oil loss afterwards. 1 QT every 1.5-2K or so.

Ive since put 20K and the oil loss seems to be the same.

I do a lot of short daily driving in NYC so maybe this contributes?

With such low miles, I can't imagine its the bearings. The OFHG has ben changed as well as the VCG, so there is no leakage there either. I also don't ever see smoke from the tailpipe either, other than normal condensation. I'm also the original owner and the car has never overheated or had any other issues which would cause this. I will say that even when the car was relatively new and low miles (2-3 yrs old) I had the oil light come on once and had to stop into an auto parts store for a QT of Castrol. My next scheduled service atthe dealer, I asked the BMW SA (I was still under my 4/50K) why this happened and he said it was normal burn. I was personally shocked that a new car lost so much oil that the light came on In hindsight, I think the dealer was also topping off the oil when I brought it in for random things. This practice would have kept the light off by these small top offs.

So I think a new car will burn some oil too. But there is definitely an increase in consumption after the repair.

[02Pilot]

City-cycle driving is not going to help consumption, but I doubt that's the only factor. Since you've been thorough with your maintenance, I'm assuming you're also on a more sane OCI than the factory 15k miles; if not, that's definitely contributing.

My results have been a combination of choosing an oil that appears well-suited to the M54 and my driving conditions, as well as applying the modification described earlier. You don't mention which oil you are using, but that could be something easily changed to see how it affects your consumption. Since you appear to have everything else (new CCV, updated dipstick guide tube) in place, it would be easy to try the mod I've used and see if you see any improvement.

[Doru]

Hi 02Pilot. I referenced your thread in the "Fester" forum. Hope you don't mind. Your research and fix deserves the attention. Here is the post.

[02Pilot]

Hi 02Pilot. I referenced your thread in the "Fester" forum. Hope you don't mind. Your research and fix deserves the attention. Here is the post.

Don't mind at all. Happy to get it out there to others who might be experiencing the same problem. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

FYI, I'll be changing the oil in my car later today and posting a full update shortly thereafter.

- - - Updated - - -

OK, here's the long-awaited update. I just changed my oil at my usual 5k mile interval; oil used for both the prior and current fill is Mobil1 10w40 High Mileage. This oil is heavy in-grade and meets ACEA A3/B3 and A3/B4, making it what I believe to be an excellent choice for the M54.

With the modification to the crankcase vacuum in place throughout this period, which was basically the entirety of the long, cold winter we had here in NY, my total oil consumption was roughly 0.5-0.75 quarts. This is a considerable improvement even over my last OCI. Furthermore, the added vacuum in the crankcase seems to have prevented any build-up of oil-water emulsion in the CCV plumbing in spite of the cold temperatures. The photos below were taken today, but I checked several times over the winter, including after periods of highway, mixed, and local, stop-and-go driving, and the appearance was similar.







It's an admittedly tiny sample thus far, but I've seen nothing but positive results. If others have tried this, please monitor your oil consumption and any other related effects and post here so we can expand the data set.

[jdjg]

Hi, I do not finish yet to read all this post (stay in page 3), but maybe you can help me unitl I finish to read all the post......
I install a catch can oil in my motor, but I think something its wrong, because now I have oil that coming out from my cap fill oil motor......
here are some photos of what I did....

















I use a 3/4" vacuum hose 300psi + PCV + clamps + catch can oil


but after a few miles, oil started coming out from the motor oil cap... so I open the second inlet in the intake manifold, and the same.... oil out from the motor oil cap











Here are the oil that came out from the motor oil cap...... this is not normal........ I open the second inlet in the Intake Manifold and nothing.....



here are a little video
http://s656.photobucket.com/user/jos...271BD.mp4.html





maybe in need to use a thinner hoses?, I use 3/4" and 5/8".....

[02Pilot]

You've got oil blowing OUT of the oil fill cap? That would suggest you've got positive pressure in the crankcase, which you definitely do not want. First thing to do is get a vacuum/pressure gauge on the crankcase and see what's actually happening; the easiest setup is to take a spare oil fill cap, drill it and insert a barb fitting, and connect that to your gauge via a long hose. You can then monitor the gauge while driving to see what happens over the normal range of conditions. Once you have a basic idea, you can then go to a slack tube manometer for fine measurements if necessary.

The basic setup you have doesn't seem like it should be causing the problem you describe, assuming everything is working properly. You will have quite a lot of vacuum in the crankcase under closed-throttle conditions, however; anything from ~15inHg up requires dry sump lubrication. You must also ensure that the crankcase is properly sealed; a smoke test will determine this quickly.

Some diagnostics are necessary before you proceed further.

EDIT: I just saw in your signature that your engine has a turbo. That's a whole different ballgame. You need to set up a series of one-way valves to keep the pressure out of the crankcase, and you will need vacuum sources both before and after the throttle plate to maintain vacuum under both acceleration and deceleration. It is a far more complex arrangement than for a normally-aspirated engine. You need to do some research on this. I would not recommend driving the car until you have an adequate CCV setup in place.

I see you've also got an open hose to the CCV. If the oil drain from the CCV to the dipstick guide tube is still connected, you've got a massive air leak into the crankcase as a result.