sigh M60 oil leak

[Nguyen]

I have developed a small oil leak over the pass week or so and been trying to diagnose exactly where it's coming from.

Got a chance to clean the engine up a bit today and it seems as if the oil is seeping from the upper and lower timing case






Along with the lower oil pan...



Oh yeah and my power steering and valve covers had been leaking also, what a PITA!! Has anyone else had a similar problem?

I did a bit of research to find any possible flaws and ordered a bunch of parts to try to solve this leak over my spring break.

So far Ive ordered:
Both upper timing cover gaskets
Both valve cover gaskets with new washers
O-ring seals for the oil cooler
Oil pan gasket
Motor Mounts
Tranny Mounts
Belts
New PS reservoir with some Hoses I picked up at a local shop.
and a couple bottles of chf11s

Also planning on powder coating the valve covers cause they look like poo. Any tips are greatly appreciated!!

[KyleCleveland]

Valve cover gaskets are very common, along with the PS hydraulic lines. As far as I know every one of them will be seeping a bit and they are a pain in the ass to replace.

When you drop the oil pan be prepared to find oil pump bolts sitting in your pan. Loctite them and put them back in. It's a common problem and should be addressed while you're there.

The passenger side motor mount is simple to replace. The driver side is much harder but you can get a socket on the nuts from the top of the engine. You'll have to snake extensions, U-joints, and swivel extensions down past the block. Remember to either tape up your extensions or disconnect your battery otherwise you'll attempt to weld a extension to your valve cover. Ask me how I know. The whole job is much easier if you have someone to help from below as you snake the extensions down to the nut.

My tranny mounts were prestine and probably original when I had to drop my transmission about a year ago. I'm surprised yours need replacing.

Good luck!

[Nguyen]

Thanks!

The PS is what I'm planning on tackling first. How many liters are required? I got 3 and was thinking about dumping the old out since i think the PO put ATF in it and running the chf11s for a few days then proceed to drain and replace the hoses and reservoir. Is that the right approach?

Any specific loctite i should be looking for? I think Ive seen some at wallyworld.

At this point I'm not as concerned with the motor mounts as i would basically have much of the things blocking the way removed. What I'm concerned of is that when i change them, I don't want fluids leaking on to them. lol on that little arcweld, Ill be sure to disconnect a terminal.

My shifter felt weird a few months ago, probably got used to it by now, but sometimes it wouldn't go back to first. I had some red uuc's from my parts car so i figured might as well throw them in there.

[moroza]

Oh yeah and my power steering and valve covers had been leaking also, what a PITA!! Has anyone else had a similar problem?

Goodness, that's a lot of oil leaking! M60's seem to have more leaks than other E34 motors, but if all those are really separate leaks, I'd question how the car was treated in its prior life. Or is it just really high mileage?

I did a bit of research to find any possible flaws and ordered a bunch of parts to try to solve this leak over my spring break.

So far Ive ordered:
Both upper timing cover gaskets
Both valve cover gaskets with new washers
O-ring seals for the oil cooler
Oil pan gasket
Motor Mounts
Tranny Mounts
Belts
New PS reservoir with some Hoses I picked up at a local shop.
and a couple bottles of chf11s

My question is is there anything else i should get?

The two O-rings that interface between the motormount bracket (driver's side) and the engineblock. That's a tough spot to reach, cheap parts, and absolutely a "while you're down there" item. Also, banjo-bolt crushwashers for the external oil line and powersteering hoses, and for the timingchain tensioner.

You got both the upper and lower oilpan gaskets? Do the upper one while you're in there. To do the motormounts, you have to lift the engine anyway.

Good time to tighten up the steerbox.

What should I start with first?

The gaskets are basically divided into top (timing cover, valvecover) and bottom (motormount bracket, oilfilter housing, PS lines). I wouldn't have a strong preference either way.

First
Is there anything else i should do when i drop the pan besides torquing the OPN?

Yes, check the bolts holding up the oilpump, and the nut on the oilpump sprocket. If they're at all loose, throw some threadlocker on (I'd use the blue stuff) and reinstall.

Anything else i should do while Im in there?

Check the timingchain guiderails.

I really don't want to do the timing chain covers and are my last on the to-do list because I heard that you have to remove the engine is that true?

No. The engine only needs to be removed to do bottom-end internal work. Once you've done the work of getting it out, additional work - like replacing gaskets - is much easier, though. Removing the lower timing cover, only necessary for a front main seal or chain guiderails, can be easier with front-end access to the motor, by taking it out or removing the front clip, radiator, and AC condenser.

Also planning on powder coating the valve covers cause they look like poo. Any tips are greatly appreciated!!

I like body-matched valvecovers. Got some pics of your car?

[Nguyen]

Goodness, that's a lot of oil leaking! M60's seem to have more leaks than other E34 motors, but if all those are really separate leaks, I'd question how the car was treated in its prior life. Or is it just really high mileage?

I'm hoping that its just the O-rings or the valve cover. The car only had 98k when i picked it up and for the price I couldn't let it pass. The owner wasn't really an enthusiast though, he couldn't even remove some torx screws on the wheels and ended up stripping them. He only had it for 6 months and i could tell the guy who had it before him drove it really hard because when i finally got the wheel locks off there were dents on the front wheels and front fenders from hitting corners too hard.

The two O-rings that interface between the motormount bracket (driver's side) and the engineblock. That's a tough spot to reach, cheap parts, and absolutely a "while you're down there" item. Also, banjo-bolt crushwashers for the external oil line and powersteering hoses, and for the timingchain tensioner.

The O-rings are the same as the back of the oil cooler correct? The external oil line that connects the cooler to the pan correct? I think i ordered those too.

You got both the upper and lower oilpan gaskets? Do the upper one while you're in there. To do the motormounts, you have to lift the engine anyway.

Haven't placed the order for the gaskets yet. Been reading threads on here people saying you have to remove the crossmember to remove the top oil pan and even with the engine out the car it's a PITA. I figured if it's not leaking yet ill just leave it alone for now. Also, what kind of sealant should i use? Would Loctite RTV Grey Silicone 5699 work?

Good time to tighten up the steerbox.

How so? Like this?

Yes, check the bolts holding up the oilpump, and the nut on the oilpump sprocket. If they're at all loose, throw some threadlocker on (I'd use the blue stuff) and reinstall.

Alright, Thank you for all the useful info!! Could i just use the red loctite?

No. The engine only needs to be removed to do bottom-end internal work. Once you've done the work of getting it out, additional work - like replacing gaskets - is much easier, though. Removing the lower timing cover, only necessary for a front main seal or chain guiderails, can be easier with front-end access to the motor, by taking it out or removing the front clip, radiator, and AC condenser.

Yea... If i have to end up replacing the lower timing chain cover I would probably have to do that at another time and just slide a drip pan under the car in the meantime. Just too much work for the time I have, considering ill be leaving for the military in a few months.

I like body-matched valvecovers. Got some pics of your car?

Exactly the look that I'm going for. Local shop out here will blast and coat both covers in Bengal White for 100. I like the look of running without the top engine cover also would that lead to more problems? haha. No pics yet, been trying to pick up some style 5's to take some real pics since these current wheels are baked.

[jehu]

If you do the upper Timing case cover(s) behind the left(Driver's Side) is the Oil Separator Valve.. I never discovered whether this can be removed and replaced without lifting out the Engine. Some s aid it can by removing the Tming Chain Guide.

The reason I men tion this is I suspect it was behind a long term Oil Burning condition and when I had the Upper left Timing cover resealed to fix such a leak this OSV was not addressed .. If I were in your showes I;d do whatever I could to learn whether this item can be replaced while just removing the case cover for doing the gasket. If so as preventative maintainance I;d think about replacing it..

I only learned about it AFTER I paid a few thousand dollars to have all my leaks fixed. Yes I had other stuff done too and have had no leaks since but If Oil Supply is behind the problem I developed with one cylinder only making 25psi and the OSV was allowing oil to be drawn up through the intake and deposited onto the valves where it burned resulting in the need for a quart of oil every 800 miles or so. It may have resulted in this major issue when under extreme heavy load going up a long ,steep incline in fifth gear at 90 mph the Oil level suddenly momentarily fell exposing the moving parts resulting in some failure somewhere...

[Nguyen]

Ouch. Ill definitely look into replacing the OSV if i decide to remove the timing cover. Do you happen to know the P/N? Thanks!

[moroza]

The O-rings are the same as the back of the oil cooler correct?

First off, it's not an oil cooler. It's an oilfilter housing. And no, there are four O-rings for the two flex lines that run between the filter housing and the motormount bracket, but another two that fit between the motormount bracket and the block.

Alright, Thank you for all the useful info!! Could i just use the red loctite?

If for some far-fetched reason you ever have to remove those bolts again, red threadlocker will be a headache and a half, and could conceivably damage something with the force required to break it.

You can run without the top cover - it's there for sound insulation, and for show. I ditched mine a long time ago.

[vlksdragon]

Couple of tips regarding the upper timing cover:

It's possible that the left upper timing cover is your only oil leak, as it tends to leak straight down and all over the motor mount plate, alternator, and oilpan. I went backwards and replaced the timing cover gasket last, and that turned out to be the only leak.

You can r+r the left upper timing cover gasket without taking the motor out. It is a bit of a pain because of the tight spaces, and moving the oil filter housing will cause a mess, but it should take less than 2 hours.

I'd also suggest looking at the realoem.com diagram of the timing cover so you can see where the bolts are, as you can't see some of them while removing them.

[Nguyen]

So driving back home today I see my oil pressure light flickering on, but it goes away after the car sits for a while... Hope the light is related

Managed to drain and fill the PS fluid in the rain via the drain plug on the pump. But only used about 75% of one can of 11s Is there another way effectively draining all the fluids out? Bentley is a bit vague on the topic without a torque spec for the plug figured 16.5lb would do.

First off, it's not an oil cooler. It's an oilfilter housing. And no, there are four O-rings for the two flex lines that run between the filter housing and the motormount bracket, but another two that fit between the motormount bracket and the block.

If for some far-fetched reason you ever have to remove those bolts again, red threadlocker will be a headache and a half, and could conceivably damage something with the force required to break it.

You can run without the top cover - it's there for sound insulation, and for show. I ditched mine a long time ago.

Thanks for clearing things up for me. Seems like a dealer only part for that o-ring. That's good to hear, I think it looks funny with the cover on.

Couple of tips regarding the upper timing cover:

It's possible that the left upper timing cover is your only oil leak, as it tends to leak straight down and all over the motor mount plate, alternator, and oilpan. I went backwards and replaced the timing cover gasket last, and that turned out to be the only leak.

You can r+r the left upper timing cover gasket without taking the motor out. It is a bit of a pain because of the tight spaces, and moving the oil filter housing will cause a mess, but it should take less than 2 hours.

I'd also suggest looking at the realoem.com diagram of the timing cover so you can see where the bolts are, as you can't see some of them while removing them.

Thanks! ill be sure to print out lots of diagrams. So do you suggest that I start with the timing cover first? Did you remove the housing when you did yours?

I seen "the right stuff" permatex sealant at the store today, would that be a suitable sealant for all: valve cover, oil pan, and timing case gaskets?

[vlksdragon]

Thanks! ill be sure to print out lots of diagrams. So do you suggest that I start with the timing cover first? Did you remove the housing when you did yours?

I seen "the right stuff" permatex sealant at the store today, would that be a suitable sealant for all: valve cover, oil pan, and timing case gaskets?

Yes, if you're sure that the upper timing cover is leaking, I would do that first, while also replacing the o-rings for the oil lines that go into the filter housing. You can leave the hard line on the filter housing, but unbolt the housing and remove the braided lines to give you enough slack to move the housing out of the way.

You'll only want to use the permatex at the mating spots of the gaskets, the Bentley manual should detail where....

[Nguyen]

Yea might as well do the timing covers while i have the valve covers off. No point on trying to avoid it now since ill just lead to more headaches. The problem is I don't think that it's just one leak point and that there are several other things leaking also. Cant think of any other possilble leak points around the area besides the Lower Chain Timing Cover and that would definitely have to wait for another time. Did you remove the radiator hose and fan clutch?

[Nguyen]

[Funk49]

Oh yeah and my power steering and valve covers had been leaking also, what a PITA!! Has anyone else had a similar problem?

Yes.

My M60 has sprung some type of oil leak under neath the oil filter housing.

I haven't found what type oil (PS or engine oil) is leaking yet. I can't determine whether it's an oil line or a PS line that is leaking up there.

Anyone have tips to determine exactly where it's leaking ?

[jehu]

Clean as much as you can

I read if you use a pressure wash that its smart to tape off plastic over the coil bay covers to keep water from leaking in there.. I suppose everything else in there is always subject to water spray driving in rain etc so spray some strong oil cleaner products all over it and shoot it with the high pressure hose at a car wash and see that you've really cleaned as much as is possible then drive it a bit preferably on the highway and get the pressures up ( over 3k rpm) then look where you see leaks OR....

I have a kit I never used which includes a liquid Dye you add to the oil, a black light on a goose-neck and yellow goggles to see the fluorescing dye under the black light.

I'd take $40 shipped.

[Funk49]

Clean as much as you can

Roger that.

I've also heard spreading a small amount of white powdered starch on the effected area also helps.

[jehu]

fwiw I had many such leak issues

For a long time I'd been lead to believe it was the Lower Timing Chain Cover Gasket leaking..

The main leak ultimately proved to be the Left Upper Timing Chain which I think may actually have been a recall item at the start. I've seen several sets of info on 540's I'd been looking at buying and this has appeared more than once under the recalls.

I eventually had the Upper Left TC Cover gasket, Oil Filter Housing Lines+O-Rings, All Power Steering Hoses including the short segments for the cooling coil, selector shaft seal and valve cover gaskets replaced. Did the whole intake while that was off though sadly the Valley pan was overlooked and would have been smart to have done with the Intake Manifold OFF...

Anyway it was virtually for Naught as in my case I still was consuming oil at the same rate. The leaks were relatively insignificant compared to the consumption which I still suspect was the Crank case vent/Oil Separator not doing its Job of returning Oil while crank case venting.

Just yesterday I encountered a theory as to why that part may have entered a failed state. It occurred to me that if the Timing Chain guide rail had broken and the chain was then allowed to contact the OSV situated behind it that it was perhaps dislocated or broken allowing oil to escape up the pipe to the rear of the intake manifold from where it leaks into the valve train being burned up. I may be popping the intake this weekend and will report what we see,

If that OSV can be checked while doing the left timing cover gasket see if you can assess that its secure and intact.



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEtUxT6nGP8[/ame]

[Funk49]

Anyway it was virtually for Naught as in my case I still was consuming oil at the same rate. The leaks were relatively insignificant compared to the consumption

Thanks jehu for all the info.

At this point I'm greatly concerned about my car catching FIRE!

My car is starting to very seriously aggravate me. I'm about to post a thread why.

[skylinergtr]

i used like 6 cans of brake cleaner to clean the left (driver side of my engine bay).

it had a bad powersteering leak.

I have changed the timing covers while doing the top end of the engine. It is a total PITA for the driver side, while the other is cake.

funny enough, my major p/s leak was coming from the steering box itself.

Now that i've replaced the box, along with all the p/s hoses (except the large pressure hose). The car is completely leak free underneath

[crazyrobbery]

how is your oil pressure sensor?

That is the only place i ever saw that much oil on my m60's

it cracked and oil came right thru the sensor

[Nguyen]

I just used a bunch of brake cleaner cans also. There was so much crap builded up in there and I couldn't think of a better way to remove all the gunk.

I changed out the gaskets for the valve covers, driver side upper timing case, lower oil pan, and also the little o-rings for the oil filter housing and haven't gotten any leaks yet... a pitabtw

There could be a number of different leaks going on in there like the lower timing case or the upper oil pan. I suggest you take off your alternator first to clean and get a better view of whats going on around there it makes it easier to pin point where the leak is.

[Funk49]

how is your oil pressure sensor?

That is the only place i ever saw that much oil on my m60's

it cracked and oil came right thru the sensor

Dunno ?

Where exactly is it located ?

[jfs356]

My indy BMW guy thought BMW had some porosity issues with the M60 engine, and thought it will probably always leak. Mine certainly leaks a bit from all the places mentioned above, U/L timing chain cover, valve covers, etc. I choose just to live with it, accept it as part of an old car.