Member
I just installed a Magnaflow universal cat (CA legal) and passed with flying colors. It was one unit but accepted both pipes. I thought $165 plus $50 install was like getting away with murder haha
Member
Whaaaaat ? Mine was about $700 ... Where did you get it from? I want!
'97 M3
senior LOUNGE theologian
Which cat? Mine were 150 a piece.Originally Posted by jdnoble
Member
OBD1 maybe ? mine was OBD2...
'97 M3
senior LOUNGE theologian
Obd2 here.
Beachtown Bill Collector
Mine were around $150 or so if I can recall.
Past: 1999 Techno Violet Metallic M3
Present: 2012 BMW 135i DCT Dinan S2, 1985 BMW 325e
Member
where did you get them that cheap? (CA legal)
'97 M3
senior LOUNGE theologian
Amazon
Member
care to provide a link
'97 M3
Member
Sorry to revive an old thread, but if anyone is looking to go the DEC cat route like I did, don't bother. I bought one from Bavauto 2 years ago when I needed to pass smog. They fit nice and bolt up proplerly, but once my next biannual inspection came around I had failed due to the cats. Any updates as to whether or not the Magnaflow cats held up?
Member
That doesn't mean the cats are prone to failure, your car could just be frying cats.
Member
Who made the call on the bad cats and how did they arrive at that conclusion?
Having asked those questions here's my take on the California approved cat situation. It's obvious that CA cats are much more expensive than those sold anywhere else. Why? The rumor is the substrate is 'dipped twice' in the catalyst mixture, or otherwise had more catalyst added to it. That's the rumor and unless someone who works at one of these facilities is willing to talk there's no way to verify this. Is adding a second layer of catalyst to an already coated substrate any better? Anyway, we pay more to have the CA cats able to meet the warranty requirement of 8 years or 80K miles, I think.
Theoretically, the cats should last forever absent any conditions that would shorten their life, misfires, air leaks, etc. Obviously, they don't. So, what I think is happening is the manufacturers are charging more up front for that warranty without making any changes to the actual cat converter other than the part numbers, so in effect, we have already paid for that cat to go bad. They're covered. If it lasts 80K miles, they're covered and if it doesn't, they're covered. There's more to it. It appears that trying to get a cat replaced under warranty is very close to an impossibility. From what I've heard and read, the user or installer or repair shop gets accused of not finding the root cause of failure (I'm actually sure this happens a lot) or otherwise not being able to prove a defective cat. The manufacturers win all the way around. Cats cost more, warranties are denied.
So is this just conjecture or a real possibility?
Last edited by tjm3; 06-01-2016 at 12:15 PM.
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
License Revoked
IIRC CA Cats have more Nickel, Palladium, iridium & Platinum.. due to the higher content of these minerals...cost goes way up.
Last edited by MassiveWalrus; 06-01-2016 at 12:50 PM.
Member
That's the rumor and it's not easy to verify. CA cats need to meet a minimum CA requirement. Most all cats meet that anyway, CA or not. So does the manufacturer make a better cat for California or do they charge a premium up front for premature failure?
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Member
Getting things certified also costs money, and that increased cost gets passed along to the consumers.
Caprica Junkie
Member
Yup, it does. Doesn't explain some of the issues, though. And here in CA we have whole agencies that do nothing but find ways to make everything cost more, cars, parts and service especially. Justification of existence, or some such nonsense. State's full of 'em.
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Member
Just as a data point. I've had the cats replaced on my '94 325i ('95 S50B30US / Dinan S/C) no less than three times now.
The first time, I got a weld in magnaflow dual inlet / outlet single cat, which turns out isn't CA legal, but the star smog stations never failed me.
The second time, I bought a DEC that turned out to be OBD2 only, even though it was listed as OBD1 and 2 legal.
It's not, specifically because there's no merge with an o2 bung ahead of the cats, OBD2 measures using 2 sensors *behind* the cats.
So a well meaning shop tech, went to a well known local muffler shop, and they welded in a brand new single cat with the dual ins and outs, and I went to go pass a BAR ref exam for CA swap legality.
The muffler shop, will go good on the single, and the labor and weld in 2 magnaflows for a reasonable price, but here's the kicker.. the ref ran the car anyway, and these cats with maybe 1.5k miles on them fail on the 15mph test.
So, my next step is to buy a factory reman cat for ~$1300. Why? Because it's guaranteed to not fail at the 15mph test. And it'll probably last at least 100k miles. Which will take me 25 years to put on the car.
There may be folks who have data to prove this is wrong, but my confirmation bias tells me I'm sick of having new cats welded in over and over.
I don't care if it's Magnaflow, or any other CA legal replacement, they all pretty much suck. Just having to deal with it every two years, even if they warranty all parts and labor, is bullshit.
Invariably, when they are brand new, the cats work. You buy them, go pass smog, and everything's fine. Invariably, at your next test, you fail and have to get them replaced.
And BTW - for folks who pay high $$ for cat installation - it's around 1-1.5 hours to drop the exhaust and replace the cats, and put the cat back back on.
Super trivial, hard to screw up if you have a driveway, a set of rhino ramps, and a basic 3/8 ratchet set with a couple of extensions and a wobble. 14mm deep socket is pretty handy as well.
Peter
--
'94 //M325i Saloon - Too much money spent between UUC, Turner, and Dinan. 258.6 @ 6psi with a bad exhaust.
Member
I'm sure not gonna stick up for the cat manufacturers BUT we don't have all the information to make a call one way or the other. You obviously have a modified auto and 'we' don't know exactly what that means. Different engine, supercharged, probably (likely) a re-chipped ECU with whatever mods that have been made in there. Has the O2 sensor been disabled? We need a dyno sheet WITH THE CORRESPONDING 4 OR 5 GAS RESULTS otherwise we're just guessing. Post the numbers from the smog test at least. The cat requirements for OBD1 have been relaxed, so just passing the visual is no indicator that anything is working properly. You didn't say which gas or gases are not passing, but I'll venture a guess that it's the NOx. The supercharger is pumping in lots of air, that means O2, and the cat reduction of NOx doesn't work when there's too much O2. Also, pump the air in with even a small amount of overfueling, or a small injector leak, and you might as well blow-torch the cat. A problem like that can ruin a cat in 15 minutes. You have an unresolved fueling problem that'll keep failing the tests and ruining the cats until you find out what that is, doesn't matter factory or not. By the way, the post cat O2 sensors for OBD2 mostly monitor cat efficiency and would normally not affect fueling unless the pre cat sensor(s) weren't working, and even that varies by manufacturer, and definitely by aftermarket programmers. I have a '92 Dinan 3 with 192K that still passes smog with no problem even though the cat efficiency tests at only 17% efficient. Cats usually don't just die, you need to kill them. Factory cat isn't gonna be much better.
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Member
Cheap aftermarket cats have a tiny amount of catalyst in them. That is why they are crap. And that's why they barely last at all.
2011 M3 Sedan
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD LBZ
1999 323i GTS2
1995 M3 - S50B32/S6S420G/3.91
1990 325is
1989 M3 - S54B32/GS6-37BZ
Hers: 1996 Porsche 911 Turbo
Hers: 1989 325iX
Member
Like I've said, I won't stick up for the cat manufacturers, but, on what info or data do you base your claim? Just about every report using aftermarket cats indicate that they did a good job of doing what they're supposed to do when first installed, even if the engine wasn't running properly. Assuming ideal engine running conditions then just about zero catalyst depletion would take place, and even a crappy cat would do it's job for a reasonable amount of time, but a system that's not running properly does exactly what's being described in this forum. If you could prove that catalyst claim, and I wish someone would do the testing, then that could unravel a giant scam regarding these aftermarket cats. The problem that I see is that through bad advice, bad diagnostics and a more than general lack of understanding about fueling systems contributes to trying to resolve the issue by throwing parts at the problem. Throw in a few more aftermarket 'upgrades' and re-flashes to complicate the problem and you get exactly what's here - 120 posts of complaints. Not to mention all the other stuff, I had my first smog inspection, installation and repair license in 1976 and I'm still current.
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Cone Killer
The aftermarket cats don't have as much heavy metal in them and they're usually much smaller than the OEM cats. There's a reason why they're $2-300 each while the OEM's are $1200+ each.
After running them for 2 years, you're pretty much going to fail, regardless of how well you've maintained your car, or whether its bone stock or not. Been there, done that....
The only way I could consistently pass over time with aftermarket cats was if I removed them directly after passing the test and put them on my garage shelf, then reinstalled them right before my next test.
'03 911 Turbo 6MT fun car
'18 Toyota Land Cruiser Daily driver/Ski Machine/Off Roader
'15 Cayenne Diesel Wife's DD
'17 KTM 690 "Adv" 2 wheeled Adventurer
Member
^^^^^ Bingo^^^^ we have a winner here. That's how you pass consistently in this state when you go aftermarket.
Member
Magna Flow CATs have to pass the CA OBD test to sell in CA. Each car design must also be approved for proper fit and function. You, the user, cannot pick. The testing usually means they costs more and have to meet a higher test standard for operation than the 49 states legal version. Shops are investigated if they are caught selling / installing incorrect items. The old CAT is returned as proof of a correct installation.
Thus I have a CA approved 95 E36 with a single CAT with duel inlet / outlet design 332008. $600 installed in 2013 at a Star SMOG station, now $200 on Amazon. Install process was custom and ave in quality as the shop could not replace without removing the resonators. Thus I am extra loud and have a instant drop in MPG. But tires also seem to wear faster too so does that mean I am using more power to the wheels? In 2015 I passed but it was not as good as new. In 2017 passed but it was close to failing HC with 2 tries. The 5 year is only good if your car was running properly and not burning oil. So they can reject your claim too and are not too eager to replace. I thus installed new plugs and warmed up the car more.
CATs do not fix your high HC problems, they mask it to let you pass SMOG check but then they may wear out faster.
Member
I’ve run Magnaflow cats, they make good stuff and they flow well. I think when I do my cats I’ll do the complete Magnaflow center, 448690 for CA, 24021 for everyone else.
PCA HPDE Instructor
current:
2004 M3 convert 6sp man - low mileage beauty!
past:
1995 BMW M3 3.2
2004 M3 convert SMG
2003 BMW 540i6 Alpine White M sport (I want her back!)
Member
There's two sets of cats from the manufacturers that care to venture into this market. OBD-II cats and pre OBD-II cats. You can buy generic type cats that meet the lesser specs for OBDI vehicles and they're much less expensive than the OBD-II variety. OBD-II cats are certified for use in specific vehicles with specific engine and accessory combinations and specific engine test groups. They require more paperwork and that means more expensive. I'd really like someone to do actual testing on these cats vs. regular cats to either prove or dis-prove the 'OBD-II cats are dipped twice in the catalyst' BS. I have my own opinions on this. All I'm seeing is blind speculation and opinion along with the actual real-world problems with smog test related failures that are NOT cat related. If you throw parts at the problem in place of proper diagnostics then the results are these 125 posts.
Theoretically, a cat should last forever. Obviously that's not the case, but there's truth to the adage 'cats don't just die, they're killed' .
See ya later,
tony
'98 M3, '92 Dinan3, '05 R1100S BCR, '07 R1200S, Aprilia T
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks