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Thread: The definitive E36 LTW Spoiler Replica Thread

  1. #1176
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    I have no risers, OEM gt2 wing and I'm looking for OEM risers. I had an abrahams wing that was good, but the risers for it were way off. I sold the wing as a low and sent the riders back for a refund, which they made no hassle, and they reimbursed me for shipping as well.

    - 98 m3, techno/anthrazit cloth, 124k and officially worthless - 89 m3, alpine/black 143k and officially old - 2000 323it, tiag/grey, 169k and officially boring

  2. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by notMpowered View Post
    Here, just use this.
    DEAD.


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  3. #1178
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    How much of a fitment difference was the AMS risers on the OEM wing?

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    LTW/GT Guide

    So I've decided to make a guide with the knowledge I've gathered from studying the spoiler for the past few years.

    None of this is fact, just my best assessment. Feel free to let me know any corrections that may be needed, we're all here to learn.

    So to begin, this is going to cover STRICTLY the ltw/gt(1) spoiler.

    It is known in the US as the ltw spoiler after appearing on the Lightweight e36 m3 sold exclusively in the US.



    In EU, it is known as the gt spoiler after appearing exclusively on the e36 m3 gt (as well as e36 318is class II)




    Also, small note, the base of the spoiler on the 318is class II is different than the others. The sedan trunks are slightly smaller in width.

    The top portion of the spoilers share the same part number. More info here thanks to forum member Falk

    yes Sir: sedan: 51 71 2 268 552

    part number 1:

    http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E3...oiler_class_2/

    ( I know that picture doesn´t show a sedan, but the part number is for sedan, as you can read in the link)

    coupé number : 51 71 2 489 685
    http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E3...oiler_class_2/

    also part no. 1 .

    the upper wing is the same part number, just the "ground plate" is differnt to fit the differnt trunk wides.
    here a link to a german installation manual for both, sedan and coupé:http://www.m3-gt-racing.de/downloads...lermontage.pdf
    see on page 3 (Lieferumfang des Einbausatzes für E36/2 (coupe) 1.line Heckflügelunterteil ( wing- under part) =part no 51 71 2 267 444.9
    and compare it to the 1.line under Limousine (sedan): Heckflügelunterteil = part no 51 71 2 264 508.9
    The only difference between the ltw and the gt(1) spoiler is that the US version required a third brake light so it was cut out to comply with US law.

    You will noticed it is somewhat poorly done as it was hand cut by the PTG racing team I believe, otherwise the spoilers are identical.



    Since we know what the ltw/gt spoiler IS, let's take a look at some photos of what it ISN'T.

    The gt(2) spoiler has a different base (as well as a brake light) while sharing identical tops with the gt(1). Risers are interchangeable on them.

    (Slight fun fact, this spoiler also appears on the 320i clubsport [and 328i clubsport?])




    Here is a great photo showing the differences from the gt (left) and gt2 (right) spoiler. The gt2 spoiler stops at the trunk while the gt goes past.



    Other spoilers that get confused with the ltw include

    -PTG spoiler




    -GTR spoiler




    -DTM Fiberwerkz (Pretty cool, looks like the a combination of the PTG and GTR spoiler together) Low PTG spoiler? Wonder if riser blocks would fit?



    -Unknown (If you know, please inform me)



    -Rieger Infinity II




    -RACING DYNAMICS RS High-Speed Heckflügel (Class II) - (Looks like an ltw without the base?)



    -Racing Dynamics (Unknown?)




    -Bekkers? (Unknown)




    Comparison to a replica low rise ltw



    WHAT TO LOOK FOR

    There are a number of different things to looks for when choosing the right spoiler to suit your needs.

    Some want as close to OEM as they can get. Others would like the aesthetic without having to pay a premium.

    Things to look for in an ltw spoiler include

    1. 4 pieces (Base piece, top portion, left riser, right riser)
    2. No sag (No dip from the top portion [While making this, I just learned they're actually supposed to curve up slightly!])
    3. Round sides (Curved riser blocks opposed to straight)
    4. Slim base (Tapering base width from the rear towards the front)


    There are several different ltw spoilers that exist. I'm going to cover to the best of my ability the most commonly known ones for convenience sake.

    My list include
    -OEM
    -Abraham/Lester
    -Mashaw
    -Ebay (generic)

    OEM

    With OEM, it is the most expensive and you're getting the "best". Even though it is OEM, there may still be flaws in the finish and even fitment that many don't realize.








    To know if you have an OEM spoiler, look for the part numbers, or simpler, the little indentation under the base of the tail.




    There's something about the oem that makes it look so much sleeker than the rest. It looks like the base gets really sharp as it goes towards the front of the car.
    (Or maybe it's because it's slim and we're looking at low rise versions here?)



    (Also, small fun detail, the angle of the coupe trunk perfectly matches the top portion [I believe sedan trunks have a very minor different angle])



    You may have seen some ltw spoilers come with additional pieces. These are known as wicker bills and are very rare OEM pieces.

    I believe there is someone working on replicating said pieces but I do not know the details.






    As well, there are images with some with gurney flaps. These are NOT original.

    They have been modified and added by their respective owners.





    ABRAHAM/LESTER

    Next is what I believe to be the next best thing to OEM, Abraham/Lester.

    They looks nearly identical although I have read about slight fitment issues that need to be worked on.

    If you plan to do it yourself, you may run into some alignment issues. Reputable shops should have no problem with the spoiler.

    Here's a before and after photo of the spoiler being torqued together. You can see the base is flexing. (Odd, I thought the poly would be stronger than that?)










    There are some who have bought and used Abraham/Lester risers on their oem ltw spoilers

    I've read two examples, and one said it was okay, while the other said it was a struggle.




    MASHAW

    The next best option behind Abraham/Lester I believe is Mashaw.

    They are very strong, and do not flex much if at all (I would know because I backed into a tree branch on accident and it slightly bent my trunk )

    The issue though is that they don't have a clean finish. By that I mean that when you receive the product it isn't fully smooth, it needs a little prep work.

    I've read because these are race pieces, they were built tough with less priority on looks, function > form.

    Again, any reputable shop should be able to handle any small issues.

    As well, the riser blocks are not like OEM. The bolts are hidden within the hollow risers.

    From an installation preference, it is much easier to work on as I'm told, opposed to traditional risers.

    Supposedly, the spoiler needs to be modified a bit to be run in the low position, it was made to be ran in the high position at all times being a race part.

    Below is a comparison between an OEM ltw/gt spoiler (left) and a Mashaw (right).

    You will see the difference in the risers appearance. Also the base is a little larger than OEM and not "sharp"










    Also, here's a comparison between a Mashaw (left) vs an Abraham/Lester (right).

    You'll see the base on the Mashaw is not as thin and "sharp" as the Abraham/Lester.





    Also, a rare option is the Mashaw full carbon fiber.

    It is the same mold as the fiberglass model but many times lighter.

    It features the same drawbacks such as a poor dull finish.








    EBAY

    And lastly, we have eBay.

    This comparison is not limited to products sold from eBay, instead, all generic markets and vendors who wholesale parts from China.

    There are a number of different eBay variants

    -1 piece
    -2 piece
    -2 piece seamless
    -4 piece
    -4 piece carbon fiber

    Beginning with 1 piece, these are actually pretty rare to come by.

    The example below appears to have no sag, but the sides are far too straight in shape resulting in a rectangular spoiler shape.



    Next we have 2 piece with an indentation to make it "look" like there's four pieces.

    These usually suffer from sag, a dip in the middle of the top portion of the spoiler. Also doesn't have the correct curvature in the "risers"




    An easy way to tell if a spoiler is 2 or 4 pieces, look at the slant of the riser indentation. If it is angled, there's no way it would be able to sit as a low rise ltw.





    Be careful looking for giant fat bases. This one barely tapers.



    And then there's the seamless 2 piece.

    This one has fake holes for the riser, also notice the sag in the second photo.




    These 2 pieces with no fake riser holes actually look pretty good. The shape looks correct and no sag from what I can see. It just looks a bit naked?






    I think these might be Duraflex?




    There's also this 2 piece made from carbon fiber. Doesn't have the correct riser curve and has sag.





    Next we have the 4 piece spoilers.

    This one in particular has a perfect riser curve. It just suffers from sag.



    And then this one has a poor riser curve along with sag.



    Be careful again looking for fat bases.





    Here's a 4 piece with a custom gurney flap. It looks square shaped with some sag.






    And lastly, 4 piece carbon fiber.

    These have a nice slim base, but not as "sharp" as oem. I would say slightly slimmer than Mashaw but not as good as Abraham/Lesters.

    Unfortunately they have a very boxy look, lacking curvature in the risers and sag in the middle.

    The finish is very nice though.
















    As you can see, it's really a gamble when it comes down to "eBay" spoilers.

    You never know exactly what you're going to get as a lot of times sellers and manufacturers will use generic photos instead of the actual product on hand.

    You might get one with a fat base or square risers along with sag.

    Someone has to bite the bullet unfortunately to figure out which ones are good and bad.

    Side note, I no longer see 4 piece carbon fiber ltws on ebay from China.

    It seems like buying used might be the only options if you want a 4 piece carbon fiber one.

    As well, Busterhax stated Mashaw ltw spoilers are no longer in production as the original mold to produce the spoiler was lost?

    HAMANN

    As a bonus, there's also Hamann that makes a very nice looking rep, with no sag and a very nice slim base.

    Unfortunately, supposedly they aren't very strong though and do no accept risers.





    You'll know it's a Hamann by the indentations in the middle



    Also, they put them on other models too? Unknown if these are car specific but I'd imagine it would be?






    POTENTIAL EBAY ALTERNATIVES

    There were a few that I've come across on eBay, if someone is willing to take one for the team?

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-3-E36-19...MAAOSwknJX1hck





    http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-E36-GT-R...UAAOSwFnFWBX8a




    And then there's this one whom also appears to be selling on bimmerforums as well as panjo.

    It looks like it has a nice slim base, proper riser curve, but it sags.

    http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...block-laminate

    https://www.panjo.com/buy/rear-spoiler-e36-m3-gt-class-2-ltw-block-laminate-217233

    http://www.ebay.pl/itm/BMW-E36-M3-GT-Class-II-2-Heckspoiler-rear-spoiler-LTW-Wing-HECKFLUGEL-/162294846422?hash=item25c986d3d6:g:HpYAAOSwmfhX56Q S







    COUPE VS SEDAN

    Most ltw spoiler replicas are made for the coupe, so with that info, they should work on ALL sedans.

    The trunk width is as follows thanks to Jim E.

    The coupe is 67.3” wide
    The sedan is 66.9” wide

    I have yet to see a sedan specific replica spoiler.

    Below is a Mashaw that was originally on a coupe, then put on a sedan.

    You can see the very minor space between the trunk edge and spoiler. We're talking 0.2" on each side.



    WEIGHT

    Small note regarding the weight of spoilers, these are not fully confirmed but are as follows for high rise ltws

    Oem - 17ish lbs (?) (Confirmed by Effervescent)
    Abramham/Lester (Polyurethane) - 15lbs 6oz (Confirmed by BMWE34M5) 13lbs 3 oz for low version
    -----(As of 4/29/15 BMWE34M5 says weighs 11.5lbs lbs now?)
    Mashaw (Fiberglass) - ? (Supposedly 3.8lbs lighter than OEM confirmed by BSH)
    Mashaw (Carbon Fiber) - ?
    Ebay (2 Pieces High Rise) - 8.5lbs (Confirmed by Effervescent)
    Ebay (Carbon Fiber) - 3.14lbs (Confirmed by HTOWN///M)

    As you can see from the math, some things need to be reconfirmed

    OTHER

    There was this spoiler that I saw at Bimmerfest one year. It featured a dip in the top portion of the spoiler, but had no sag amazingly.

    It also had a VERY thin base, maybe even better then Abraham/Lester?







    I also found this photo with risers with it, looks really nice!



    I actually found this spoiler selling on eBay but don't know if they will ship to the US.

    If you're interested, give it a shot? I cannot confirm if they will be the same as the above photos though.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/200400493689...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/370294880110...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT



    They even have one with a brake light on the top?



    And then there's these ltw replicas that I have been seeing more recently, popping up I think specifically in Europe somewhere?

    If you've ever seen Fancy Wide diffusers, you've seen this spoiler.

    It seems nice but it looks like the spoiler is leaning back almost, it is following the trunk line. It looks cool yet weird because I'm so used to OEM.

    The riser curve isn't the best, but the base of the spoiler is thin, and there's no sag surprisingly.












    BRAKELIGHT?

    I don't know whether these following two cars are OEM ltw spoilers that came off an original e36 ltw with the third brakelight and then painted?

    Or if they're OEM gt spoilers that were cut up and added later by their respective owners.

    I've considered having a shop cut my spoiler base open and adding a third brake light but was always a bit worried.




    Then there's this one from British Columbia. Also unconfirmed if it's an original "ltw" or OEM gt spoiler that was cut.

    We do know the top "wicker" has been added.





    There are some spoilers that I have been fascinated about, mostly ones with a third brake light or some form of indentation for one.

    I've read that Mashaw made a few with 3rd brake lights. Does anyone have more info about them?

    Supposedly they were made hoping to sell more, but since no one was buying, they said forget about it. Perhaps these are samples?

    This is a carbon fiber Mashaw, notice the cutout for where a light should be.




    And then I also found this photo from a race car. It sports a Mashaw decal on the rear, so maybe?

    What makes me question whether or not it's Mashaw is because they never made "traditional" risers.

    Notice that you can see the bolt holes. Usually Mashaw is smooth. Maybe also an early sample run, and they decided to change the mold?




    And I know Mashaw also made PTG spoilers, maybe this is their creation as well?

    If you look closely, this isn't a traditional "PTG" cutout. There's actually a surround going on around the brakelight as if it was meant to be there.



    And then I found these (I don't believe they're Mashaw).

    Notice the little indentation, not a hole or cutout, but where a brakelight could potentially be put.




    And then there's this one. It has a similar middle piece, but it comes out, kind of like a little extra tail.

    The spoiler itself looks poor, two piece, no riser curve, and sag. But the base piece is completely different.





    And we also have this spoiler. It has the same opening for a brake light. But notice the risers, they're smooth like on a Mashaw.







    RAREST OF THEM ALL?

    Below is an actual e36 m3 ltw for sale

    http://enthusiastauto.com/qsearch/?i...orm_display=51

    This spoiler goes against all knowledge of the OEM ltw spoilers.

    Check the brake light surround.



    And here's a comparison from two other ltws that are for sale on enthusiastauto.



    What's even more fascinating is that the riser blocks are smooth! Is this a Mashaw spoiler put on an ltw? The car is pretty modified so maybe?



    As I looked more, nope! There's the indentation for the OEM sticker!





    If anyone has any info regarding these, please do leave a comment!

    I'm interesting in knowing what these are!

    RECAP



    No spoiler is perfect, not even OEM. It is what you choose to prioritize from one spoiler to the next when finding one to suit your needs.

    Some can't afford an expensive 4 piece replica and will go with a 2 piece.

    Some prefer the weight savings of carbon fiber and is okay that it's boxy and sags.

    And others find that they are willing to pay a little extra for peace of mind to know they getting exactly what is in the photo.

    Personally for me, I'd like the spoiler to look as close to OEM as possible while spending the least amount of money
    Also, for fun, here's a photo of an e34 with an ltw spoiler, and custom double risers with a metal support to make it taller


  5. #1180
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    Uhhh can OP plz quote this last comment and put it in the original post?

  6. #1181
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    Great post. While there might be a couple things in there I'd he real nerds can pick out, such a comprehensive post is an amazing help to those learning about them, and what they want for their car.

    - 98 m3, techno/anthrazit cloth, 124k and officially worthless - 89 m3, alpine/black 143k and officially old - 2000 323it, tiag/grey, 169k and officially boring

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    Quote Originally Posted by chynk View Post
    .
    amazing job, chynk!!! This post is exactly what I wanted the outcome of this thread to be. Thank you very much! I hope this is a good resource for people interested in getting a LTW wing and being targeted by cops.

    Quote Originally Posted by busterhax View Post
    Uhhh can OP plz quote this last comment and put it in the original post?
    doing it now.
    -M3J0N

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    thats awesome, needs to be on original post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by propcar View Post
    thats awesome, needs to be on original post.
    did you bother to look before you posted that?...
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  11. #1186
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    Nice post.

    Quite a thorough history. Many of those pics came from the archives of a few of us

    All of it sounds pretty good at first glance. Few things for you to know though...



    This car belongs to Jon Sibal. It is an early MaShaw replica. The original mold was popped off an original LTW wing hence the brake light. They later made a new mold, which has the thicker base and risers sans hardware notches.

    Same with the candy red CF one (Farcon's old car)



    This is a genuine wing. It came off Bryan Watts' LTW racecar. They riveted the aluminum gurney to the top foil before upgrading it to a full race wing.



    Your mystery wing is a replica. I believe one of the previous owners' name was Scott? I forget - it will come back to me. It's been so long since I began my original hunt in 2003 but he and I spoke and the original wing was damaged in a crash (he tracked the car as evidenced by the mods EAG's listing confirms). It was unusual too, they made the base out of balsa or something funky..

    Also, the Hamann wings were notorious for sag.

    I'll reread it again later and see if I missed anything.
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  12. #1187
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    Good summary but I think you need to delete:

    "So to begin, this is going to cover STRICTLY the ltw/gt(1) spoiler."

    You covered the sun, the moon and a quite a few space rocks in between.

    I'll add some more info just for fun.

    The rarest wing of all is the BMW GTR wing. They never officially sold it to the public. It came on the E36 GTR and perhaps to someone who knew someone who knew another person within BMW. PTG never got one either which is probably why they made their own version.

    I was told the GTR wing actually came in 3 different heights but my guess is they used the tallest version most of the time.

    Since you've shown nearly ever possible E36 wing let me add the STC wing:


  13. #1188
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    Quote Originally Posted by jvit27 View Post
    Quite a thorough history. Many of those pics came from the archives of a few of us
    thanks to all of those involved in providing information on this thread!
    -M3J0N

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    Quote Originally Posted by jvit27 View Post
    Quite a thorough history. Many of those pics came from the archives of a few of us

    All of it sounds pretty good at first glance. Few things for you to know though...



    This car belongs to Jon Sibal. It is an early MaShaw replica. The original mold was popped off an original LTW wing hence the brake light. They later made a new mold, which has the thicker base and risers sans hardware notches.

    Same with the candy red CF one (Farcon's old car)



    This is a genuine wing. It came off Bryan Watts' LTW racecar. They riveted the aluminum gurney to the top foil before upgrading it to a full race wing.



    Your mystery wing is a replica. I believe one of the previous owners' name was Scott? I forget - it will come back to me. It's been so long since I began my original hunt in 2003 but he and I spoke and the original wing was damaged in a crash (he tracked the car as evidenced by the mods EAG's listing confirms). It was unusual too, they made the base out of balsa or something funky..

    Also, the Hamann wings were notorious for sag.

    I'll reread it again later and see if I missed anything.
    Thanks for the info! So the LTW on EAG was in a wreck? Wonder if it's in their carfax, as it's not stated in it's sale description, says it's clean?

    So when the car was wrecked, they removed the original wing completely and replaced it with replica?

    Or did they salvage the damaged spoiler to create this one?

    Also, any photos showcasing Hamann sag?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chynk View Post
    Thanks for the info! So the LTW on EAG was in a wreck? Wonder if it's in their carfax, as it's not stated in it's sale description, says it's clean?

    So when the car was wrecked, they removed the original wing completely and replaced it with replica?

    Or did they salvage the damaged spoiler to create this one?

    Also, any photos showcasing Hamann sag?
    If you look at the photos you posted you can see that LTW wing is very different from OE. It actually looks like one of the replicas shown right above the LTW pics. Smooth risers, molded brake light in the base, etc. I'm willing to bet they are one in the same.

    Clean title does not mean accident free or even reported on the vehicle history.
    Last edited by Braymond141; 01-22-2017 at 09:41 AM.

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    Just dug up this pic. Apparently the guy didn't have a LTW after all, but it is the same wing.



    Also, the GT wing lines match other parts of the car as well:
    -trailing edge of base lines up with rear bumper
    -seam lines up with main body line

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  17. #1192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
    If you look at the photos you posted you can see that LTW wing is very different from OE. It actually looks like one of the replicas shown right above the LTW pics. Smooth risers, molded brake light in the base, etc. I'm willing to bet they are one in the same.

    Clean title does not mean accident free or even reported on the vehicle history.
    True, you can have an accident and don't report it to insurance. Just a shame though at the same time for someone who is buying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jvit27 View Post
    Just dug up this pic. Apparently the guy didn't have a LTW after all, but it is the same wing.



    Also, the GT wing lines match other parts of the car as well:
    -trailing edge of base lines up with rear bumper
    -seam lines up with main body line

    So the LTW in the auction is a completely different car?

    This spoiler looks identical to the one on the LTW as well as the bluish gray e36.

    I wonder if they're all Mashaw? But what's with the indentation in the tail of the base for the oem sticker on the LTW?

    Wonder if all three of them have it. Who has more info on this spoiler? I think it's the coolest of all.

    Edit - Also, good catch on the spoiler lines!

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    I just got my Lester wing painted and ready to install. I am considering using something as a rubber gasket between the trunk and the base to prevent wear on the paint over time. Has anyone done something like this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mauromj View Post
    I just got my Lester wing painted and ready to install. I am considering using something as a rubber gasket between the trunk and the base to prevent wear on the paint over time. Has anyone done something like this?
    You could probably use a clear film like the kind they'd use for clear bra or door edge protection.
    TRM Coilovers 670F/895R | BBS LM | Corsa RSC36

  20. #1195
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    2,202
    My Cars
    S54/E36,18 Sierra Denali
    Quote Originally Posted by mauromj View Post
    I just got my Lester wing painted and ready to install. I am considering using something as a rubber gasket between the trunk and the base to prevent wear on the paint over time. Has anyone done something like this?
    The MA shaw I have, has a 3M strip across it. I left the cover on that and used tiny Orings. At the bolts between Wong and trunk. That seals water from going in and prevents the contact. I've had no issues. Build thread in my sig has a ton of pics a page or two back.

    Btw I was able to make a seamless install with the MA shaw. Using holes slightly larger than the bolts allows for manipulation and then just use washer to have a good contact surface when you lock it down. I also antiseized all the bolts for the riser as they do get wet.

  21. #1196
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Co
    Posts
    135
    My Cars
    '95 M3 / '03 X3
    Lots of nice wangs here.


    1995 BMW M3/2/5 - Alpine White - Vaders - Stage II Maxsil Pistons, Chipped, 24# Injectors, MagnaFlow Exhaust, and heated door locks!

  22. #1197
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    659
    My Cars
    '98 ti (M powered)
    Fantastic detail there great work!

    I have the own M3 GT sedan wing on my ti. You mentioned the difference in width; however there is also a difference in curvature of the deck between the sedan and coupe. The coupe as I recall is flatter (larger radius) and the sedan is a smaller radius (more curve).

    On the ti, the sedan base fits perfectly. However the front of the base overlaps the rear glass. I had mine trimmed to fit but I have never been happy with how it came out.

    Anyway just wanted to throw that detail in the mix for you.

  23. #1198
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    2
    My Cars
    1999 318is Coupe

  24. #1199
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    VALLEJO
    Posts
    10,465
    My Cars
    Boring E36
    Nice informative post.
    U MAD?

  25. #1200
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    ATL, GA
    Posts
    622
    My Cars
    01 LSB M3, 99 323i
    I am 99.99999% sure my old M3 had a real OEM LTW wing, without risers. I was too scared to remove it to check for numbers, but seeing that the brake light is from 95, and the fitment is damn near perfect, i considered it authentic.

    https://flic.kr/s/aHsjAZeAeW

    https://flic.kr/s/aHsk98KUq9
    Last edited by Hatch; 04-26-2017 at 08:50 AM.


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