Yet another track day / street car question

[peterhsd1]

I’m hoping to make a regular return to driver’s ed/track days after a 10-year hiatus spent with work & kids. However, I’ve noticed that the safety requirements have changed significantly in that time. Back in the day when the E36 M3 was THE CAR, a lot of folks ran a 4-point bar, stock seats and a 4-point harness. I’ve checked around with local clubs and it seems now if you want to put in a rollbar you need at least a 5-point harness (no doubt 6-point soon to be required), one-piece racing seats, seat mounts, hardware, etc.

So it would seem safety has become an all or nothing proposition. You either invest the $3-4k in safety gear or take your chances with the stock belts (I saw some Schroth Quick-Fits and no bar at a recent track day but just can’t get over the rollover risk). Of course once you have all of that safety gear installed you have a car that is not street legal and raises concerns about driving without a helmet.

So, for those that have done these installs, I’m wondering if it is feasible to install the safety equipment (four-point bolt-in bar, seat mounts, shells, harnesses, etc.) before the event, cross your fingers driving to and from the event, return home and then remove all of the safety equipment. I think anything more than 2 hours in / 2 hours out would drive me .

Why do I think I need all of that safety equipment for a driver's ed? Frankly, 10 years ago I never gave it much thought but now things are a bit different (marriage, kids, dogs, etc.). Also, I realize the basic safety of the E36 is not great. If you need some motivation, check out http://www.euroncap.com/tests/bmw_3_series_1997/15.aspx

I doubt I’d ever do more than 4-5 events a year, probably grouped in the spring and fall so I might be able to cut my install/removal process to a few times a year.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[Rokomis]

Are we talking HPDE or actual wheel to wheel club racing?

[tammer]

I’m hoping to make a regular return to driver’s ed/track days after a 10-year hiatus spent with work & kids. However, I’ve noticed that the safety requirements have changed significantly in that time. Back in the day when the E36 M3 was THE CAR, a lot of folks ran a 4-point bar, stock seats and a 4-point harness. I’ve checked around with local clubs and it seems now if you want to put in a rollbar you need at least a 5-point harness (no doubt 6-point soon to be required), one-piece racing seats, seat mounts, hardware, etc.

So it would seem safety has become an all or nothing proposition. You either invest the $3-4k in safety gear or take your chances with the stock belts (I saw some Schroth Quick-Fits and no bar at a recent track day but just can’t get over the rollover risk). Of course once you have all of that safety gear installed you have a car that is not street legal and raises concerns about driving without a helmet.

So, for those that have done these installs, I’m wondering if it is feasible to install the safety equipment (four-point bolt-in bar, seat mounts, shells, harnesses, etc.) before the event, cross your fingers driving to and from the event, return home and then remove all of the safety equipment. I think anything more than 2 hours in / 2 hours out would drive me .

Why do I think I need all of that safety equipment for a driver's ed? Frankly, 10 years ago I never gave it much thought but now things are a bit different (marriage, kids, dogs, etc.). Also, I realize the basic safety of the E36 is not great. If you need some motivation, check out http://www.euroncap.com/tests/bmw_3_series_1997/15.aspx

I doubt I’d ever do more than 4-5 events a year, probably grouped in the spring and fall so I might be able to cut my install/removal process to a few times a year.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

My take, which is one of many I'm sure, is that your safety options are:

1) All stock.
2) Stock seats with 4-point Schroth ASM belts. The ASM allows the body to twist in an impact like the 3-point belts do, so you don't have the lap belt riding up and you don't have crush issues in a rollover. They can be used with a HANS, I believe, which is worthwhile. Elephant Motorsports or HMS Motorsports, among others, can answer any questions about their best use.
3) 4-point roll bar, fixed back seats, and the Schroth ASM or a 6-point harness. Don't bother with 5-point harnesses. If you're doing an anti-sub strap, do the 6-points. For 6-points I still like Schroth for the quality of the releases and the buckles, but there are many options.
4) Full cage, fixed-back seats, 6-point harnesses.

For a car that's getting any sort of regular street duty, option 4 is out. Option 3 means no backseat passengers, ever. I am not aware of any good-quality rollbar that's going in and out of the car in under a couple hours, especially if you're swapping between stock and fixed seats each time. I'd just commit to a rollbar being back there and deal with it (i.e., the kids travel in another car, and your M3 is now a 2-seater). You can keep both stock belts and harnesses if your fixed seats are compatible with the stock belts.

Option 2 is the most versatile, but you give up the added rollover protection. Some clubs don't like 4-points now, but most still accept them. The ASMs are the only 4-pts I'd consider.

With option 2 and up, a HANS device is an option and, you should seriously consider getting one (or some form of head/neck restraint).

-tammer

[peterhsd1]

Just talking driver's ED here, not actual racing and I have a '95 M3.

Yes the Schroth Quick Fit Pro can be used with stock seats and a Hans as I understand it but how is that ok in a rollover? You are pinned upright in the seat. I'm 6 foot and my helmet is only a few inches from the roof (sunroof car). I might be ok with that in a newer car with a stronger chassis but the E36 seems pretty weak.

[NeilM]

Yes the Schroth Quick Fit Pro can be used with stock seats and a Hans as I understand it but how is that ok in a rollover? You are pinned upright in the seat.

No you're not. You need to go and read up on what the ASM does.

Neil

[kishg]

i would go with option #3 that tammer describes. How often do you street this car and do you need to carry passengers? An option #3 car will still be street legal and you need not be concerned about wearing a helmet. if you had a full cage, that would be a different matter.

[PCarroll]

You don't "need" a roll bar. But you can not use a 5-6 point harness unless you have one.

There are documented cases of E36 rollovers where the roof collapsed down to the head rest. This is why the rule exists for many chapters.

A factory 3 point belt allows you to fall to the side to avoid this. Apparently the Schroth 4 point does too but I find that hard to believe (having used them).

I'm not sure I would trust a Hans with the 4 point Schroth either. It was not designed for that scenario. Plus the tether screws will make a mess of the leather (they make a mess of race seats too).

I would not want to be in a rolled E36 without a roll bar, proper seat, harness, Hans, etc. Even then I suspect I would not enjoy it...

IMHO, you should drive it as is... but drive accordingly. In your current situation you should not be pushing that hard anyway.

If you do find yourself wanting to push hard and you start reconsidering your mortality, then go all the way and put in all the safety equipment: rollbar, race seat, 6-points, Hans.

My 2¢

[tammer]

o avoid this. Apparently the Schroth 4 point does too but I find that hard to believe (having used them).

You can watch the sled test videos at the HMS website. No faith necessary; it's a good design and is the best compromise for a car without a roll-bar (or with a roll bar if the owner is somehow averse to 6-points). Personally, my feeling is that if you're going to the track more than once or twice a year in a street-legal car, #3 is where you should be. That's sufficiently high risk exposure to have the full kit (6-points, seats, and bar), and it's enough tracking that you should have another car for daily use anyway.

-tammer

[thejlevie]

The opinions expressed below are just that...

Since this is a DE car that is also a daily driver I think it reasonable to use the Scroth belts, stock seats, and no roll bar. While a roll bar would be nice, and a cage even nicer, the chances of a roll in a DE are pretty low. There is nothing about a DE environment that mandates driving the car above 9th's, other than the driver's desire to go faster. In a DE I'd be more worried about a side impact and to protect against that you need a full cage.

[kishg]

i've seen a number of rollovers in DEs but i agree the risk is lower than in wheel to wheel. i guess it boils down to your tolerance for risk.

[peterhsd1]

I don't really need the car for the street much, maybe once a week. I have a short commute so I usually go by bike or scooter but sometimes weather or the need to make a longer trip dictate the need for a car. I think I'll probably go for number 3 above since I already have a bar (a used Autopower -- happened upon it locally and didn't pay much).

Would be nice to put the stock seats back in for street driving but I take it that is a no go. It looks like the stock seats will sit within inches of the bar in my normal driving position. Remind me again the issue with that. Is it that in a rear-end collision the stock seatback can snap? There can't be much rear-ward movement b/c the bar is right there. What about seat-back braces? As I recall those were used with stock seats for racing about 10 years ago?

Everything is relative. Perfect example, what's more dangerous, commuting by scooter with a helmet or driving the car without a helmet but with a roll bar? I've had a number of near misses on the scooter (dumb car drivers just don't see you) but nothing close in the car for a while (knock on wood), of course that can change anytime.