Interest in a cast SPA twin scroll manifold?

[Keith1054]

There has been growing interest in twin scroll manifolds. The current options from various vendors are no doubt awesome, but also come at a price.
I personally would love a "high-riding" bottom mount cast twin scroll manifold, for the short runner lengths, and durability that a cast iron manifold is known for. I was anxiously awaiting the TS Steedspeed manifold, but I doubt if that will ever happen.

I currently have a converstion open with SPA about the topic. The initial response was not a flat out "no", so I am optimistic.
My idea is the manifold would look something like this:



You can see the first three runners wouldn't really change except for the addition of the wastegate port(angled toward the rear). This would feed the front TS port.
Runners 4-6 would hump over top of the 1-3 exit and feed the rear TS port. The original wastegate port could probably remain unchanged. SPA asked if we would prefer T4, T3 or both. My guess is most interest would be in the T4 option, but comments are welcome.

I made this post mainly to gather interest and to learn about any issues members have seen with the current open housing manifold so that any improvements could be integrated into this design.

Let me know your thoughts!

[wazzu70]

I think this would be an excellent option for 95% of the people out there.

I was thinking of designing a TS cast manifold a while ago....but I dont have an M50 or an E36 so I wasn't sure what the constraints were.

T4 divided would most definitely be the flange to use.

If SPA needed some development help, I would be interested to help out for the community.

[pbonsalb]

I agree this would be an excellent option for 95% of M3 turbo builds. The Spa is much of the way there already with its 1-3 and 4-6 runner design. It just needs to divide the paths all the way to the flange and add the second wastegate port. I agree that the twinscroll would be most important for larger turbos, which means first developing the manifold for T4 would make the most sense.

[ICS Performance]

I agree this would be an excellent option for 95% of M3 turbo builds. The Spa is much of the way there already with its 1-3 and 4-6 runner design. It just needs to divide the paths all the way to the flange and add the second wastegate port. I agree that the twinscroll would be most important for larger turbos, which means first developing the manifold for T4 would make the most sense.

The SPA T4 manifold with the optinal waste gate pipe creates boost creep. We at ICS bore the waste gate hole and fabricate and weld a larger wastegate pipe to accommodate the Tial 44 WG.

We have used an 11 psi spring and see 11 11.5 psi without any boost creep, for an inexpensive manifold with some alterations it works well.

-George Kakaketris

[highboostingm3]

100% agree it would be fantastic for the community!

Especially with the recent accomplishments of the T4 open Spa manifold on handbuilt's car producing over 600whp on 93 octain with a divided gt4094r.

Just imagine if the manifold took advantage of the divided turbine housing!

Plus it is at the right price, it is cast and it allows for over subframe charge piping = WIN +WIN + WIN + WIN = QUADRUPLE WIN!

[wazzu70]

There are very few T3 divided housings out there. The T3 divided housings are all diesel based too (yes the ATP Garrett ones).

Pretty much any petrol turbo housing thats divided will be T4.

[GG///M3]

A twin scroll spa would be awesome.

[RobertFontaine]

... Let's try to have this completely worked out before fall so that I can buy one.

[Butters Stoch]

... Let's try to have this completely worked out before fall so that I can buy one.

By fall time twin scrolls will be old hat
6 waste gates FTW

[milKt]

... Let's try to have this completely worked out before fall so that I can buy one.

Have someone send it to The East for redesign
and happy Finnish "massaged" WG porps.

We shant lose our integrity now.

[GG///M3]

By fall time twin scrolls will be old hat
6 waste gates FTW

Yes and full blown fire suppression systems for wannabe DIY'ers who have the local FD's hard at work putting fires.

It doesn't matter when they are produced, but if they are produced is what matters. That's the key. No hidden attack riddles while the fire department puts out fires because improperly installed setups. While knives hang out of spines.

[rt turbo]

The SPA T4 manifold with the optinal waste gate pipe creates boost creep. We at ICS bore the waste gate hole and fabricate and weld a larger wastegate pipe to accommodate the Tial 44 WG.

We have used an 11 psi spring and see 11 11.5 psi without any boost creep, for an inexpensive manifold with some alterations it works well.

-George Kakaketris

Same as I did on mine. Damn glad to see ya back here George!

[Z3speed4me]

Yes and full blown fire suppression systems for wannabe DIY'ers who have the local FD's hard at work putting fires.

What is with the 1000 recent post about fires and home fabrication about lately? Soooo lost....

[BMWManiac]

Can they keep the cost down? I want a T4, twinscroll, performance of tubular, strength of cast, no boost creep, doesn't require scavenge pump setup, and reasonably priced....now go!

Good to see you back George!

[RobertFontaine]

Side question while we wait for to see the prototype...

What causes boost creep? How do you avoid it/treat the symptoms?

... a little reading and searching seems to mostly say a big turbo hooked up to a small waste gate.

I would assume that a T4 Manifold set up for twin scroll would have a wastegate that would support a gt40r @ 20psi but I'm optimistic

[ICS Performance]

Same as I did on mine. Damn glad to see ya back here George!

Glad to be back, thank you

Can they keep the cost down? I want a T4, twinscroll, performance of tubular, strength of cast, no boost creep, doesn't require scavenge pump setup, and reasonably priced....now go!

Good to see you back George!

Thank You, it's quite an impressive manifold for someone looking for a budget build or not a fan of an oil scavenge pump. When installing a large frame turbo you will need to massage the block a bit to accommodate fitment and again bore out the waste gate hole in the manifold to avoid boost creep.

I can see the SPA T-4 making 800 - 900 WHP if needed.

-George Kakaletris

[wazzu70]

What causes boost creep? How do you avoid it/treat the symptoms?

The cause is the wastegate cannot flow enough to exacuate the exhaust gas needed. What you should be exhausting but are not continues to spool the turbo over the desired level.

The main cause is not enough flow to the wastegate. If you look at many manifolds you will notice wastegate flow is pretty much the lowest priority. A larger gate helps if the gate is truly the choke point, but its usually poor flow to the wastegate AKA 90deg tube slapped on the runners, not a nice transition.

[Keith1054]

Thank You, it's quite an impressive manifold for someone looking for a budget build or not a fan of an oil scavenge pump. When installing a large frame turbo you will need to massage the block a bit to accommodate fitment and again bore out the waste gate hole in the manifold to avoid boost creep.

I can see the SPA T-4 making 800 - 900 WHP if needed.

-George Kakaletris

Thanks George! I currently have the AA log manifold, so this is good feedback. I wasn't sure how big of a turbo fits on the current SPA. I think the GT40 size is about as big as you can go. Is there any value in changing the location of the new exit another 1/2" or so away from the block, or just not mess with it - will frame clearance become an issue?
(Keeping in mind the more we change from the current manifold casting mold, the more cost, and the less likely this will even be a viable product)


Will twin 38mm wastegates be sufficient(especially if they can be bored out to 44 if needed)?

[wazzu70]

Does anyone have a damaged SPA manifold? Does the SPA or the AA put the turbo in the best location?

[highboostingm3]

Does anyone have a damaged SPA manifold? Does the SPA or the AA put the turbo in the best location?

From what I gather the Spa manifold:
-places the turbo high enough not to need a scavenge pump (might be relative to size of turbo though).
-with the right motor mount allows for above subframe charge pipe routing which is absolutely ideal.

BIG BIG bonuses there!

[GG///M3]

From what I gather the Spa manifold:
-places the turbo high enough not to need a scavenge pump (might be relative to size of turbo though).
-with the right motor mount allows for above subframe charge pipe routing which is absolutely ideal.

BIG BIG bonuses there!

I think the Spa manifold has always been the better of the cast manifolds. If you had to place them in order it would be

#1 Spa
#2 AA
#3 ThreadStone

[highboostingm3]

I think the Spa manifold has always been the better of the cast manifolds. If you had to place them in order it would be

#1 Spa
#2 AA
#3 ThreadStone

I personally would put it:
#1 Spa
#2 TreadStone
#3 AA

This is because both Spa and Treadstone are shaped with runners staying as seperated as possible to act more like a tubular manifold.

The AA is a pure log style.

The AA does place the turbo very high which is nice.

Also...looking at dyno sheets it is hard to see if there really is much of a difference in flow characteristics. The only way one would know is to do a back-to-back-to-back Dynojet comparison with all else other than manifold being equal and that would be a tall tall order.

Factoid: Treadstone is not available in T4 AFAIK.

Factoid: I do not believe AA manifold can be purchase in T4 but might be incorrect and the AA is much much more expensive and is heavier as well.

[GG///M3]

I personally would put it:
#1 Spa
#2 TreadStone
#3 AA

This is because both Spa and Treadstone are shaped with runners staying as seperated as possible to act more like a tubular manifold.

The AA is a pure log style.

The AA does place the turbo very high which is nice.

Also...looking at dyno sheets it is hard to see if there really is much of a difference in flow characteristics. The only way one would know is to do a back-to-back-to-back Dynojet comparison with all else other than manifold being equal and that would be a tall tall order.

Factoid: Treadstone is not available in T4 AFAIK.

Factoid: I do not believe AA manifold can be purchase in T4 but might be incorrect and the AA is much much more expensive and is heavier as well.

I guess I place AA at number 2 based on what CardCounter/ICS/AA did with it back in the day.

I'm not sure if CardCounter was a T4 or modded to be 1.

Maybe he or George can chime in about that?

[highboostingm3]

I guess I place AA at number 2 based on what CardCounter/ICS/AA did with it back in the day.

I'm not sure if CardCounter was a T4 or modded to be 1.

Maybe he or George can chime in about that?

Good point.

AA has produced amazing results period. I guess it depends on what one is evaluating. If it is sheer performance from actual trial & error proof...AA is #2 for sure...maybe even slight #1.

If you add in cost, weight, flow style...I put it #3. These days the cost is a big factor and really a big reason why the T4 Spa seems to be an absolute CRUSHER.

[GG///M3]

Good point.

AA has produced amazing results period. I guess it depends on what one is evaluating. If it is sheer performance from actual trial & error proof...AA is #2 for sure...maybe even slight #1.

If you add in cost, weight, flow style...I put it #3. These days the cost is a big factor and really a big reason why the T4 Spa seems to be an absolute CRUSHER.

Korrect.