tranny output shaft play?

[bbarnumboy]

so i have a video of my guibo area where the join to the transmission output shaft connects the drive shaft.

it seems i have excessive play..do iI? i am looking for input on the video below.
For years this car has a very bad drive line chatter when clutching the car, especially in reverse. example is...if i am clutching the car to move it and push the clutch in during the clutch release it chatters horribly.. anyone have any input on what this may be? it seems that the output shaft on the differential is tight and the center mount seems to not have play.

here is the video i took under the car




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kind of a dual thread topic here, i have another issue lately. i have pin pointed the problem occurance and it seems to be during accel or decell (i have not tried in neutral.) when at low speeds, 1st gear or low 2nd gear and taking a right hand turn i get a huge clunking noise. I can even feel it.

little history on that, i have within the last year repaired the subframe mounts because 2 of them tore. i have confirmed that the welds are still holding strong and thats not the issue. i have tried every nut and bolt, and they are all fully tightened and not loose. No broken parts or disconnected parts. Everything is together properly. I have also checked the strut top mounts as well. Struts are brand new as well and working properly. one last thing. if i beat the hell out of this car, IE: high speed cornering, medium speed cornering, burnings out, launches etc etc..it has no clunking issue.

Just some input please guys :-) and sorry for the Novel thats horribly written..

[bbarnumboy]

Bump

[wippenberg]

Looks like the cause of the play is hidden internally. No way for me to tell anything here. Beyond my area of knowledge, to be honest.
You wrote it clearly, video helped the most.

[flyfishvt]

First there should be no play on the output shaft of the tranny. i have a ZF tranny sitting here that I will be using to replace my Getrag 250 tranny. You have the same Getrag 250 unless its been replaced (I doubt it was). THat tranny is known to have issues and should be replaced if you have the funds. All the symptoms you described can be casused by a bad tranny. The clunking could also be worn U joints on the drive shaft and a worn differential. I lean towards the Getrag. Mine pops out of 1st gear every once in a while when I start up from a complete stop and it has recently started to develope a slight click, almost a chatter when I shift gears. I'm figuring my syncros are going.
You can get a used Getrag from a junk yard for $200-300 or you can search for a ZF tranny and swap it in. The ZF is a much better tranny. BMW stopped useing the Getrag in 95 except for the 323. All 328's and M3's 96 and after use the ZF.

If you swap in a ZF you will need the shifter linkage and the front half of the drive shaft that goes with it.

[bbarnumboy]

what is the code for this ZF tranny?sucks because i have never had an issue with it. this tranny drives and shifts solid!! i track this car regularly every year etc. But it is annoying with that chattering.

so reallythere should be zero shaft play? iwonderif it is a bearing issue or something

[flyfishvt]

could be an output shaft seal

[bbarnumboy]

i will have to research. i replaced all the seals on this tranny last time it was out, including the output shaft seal, and the drivetrain had the chatter back then before i did that.

[flyfishvt]

Looks like the tranny is going south. Start looking for a replacement.

car-parts.com or craigslist or the classifieds here.

[bbarnumboy]

so does the zf have a model? u called my getrag a 250...

also is the zf geared differently? and is that from the M44?

[flyfishvt]

The lower gears of the ZF are a little different but not much. 4th and 5th are the same as the Getrag.

You don't need to know the model. You will need the tranny, shifter linkage and the front half of the drive shaft. The rear half of the shaft is the same as the one you have.

THis is a copy of a posting that explains the whole Getrag/ZF thing.

Originally Posted by flyfishvt
I am going through this right now. I'm swapping out my 95 Getrag for a 98 ZF. 92-95 BMW's used almost entirely Getrag 5spd. 96-98 used ZF. The tranny in a 96-98 M3 (ZF310 and ZF 320) is the same as a 328. The 96-98 318/323 used the Getrag box. The same is true for 92-95. 318/325 use the same Getrag tranny.

The only problem is replacing a Getrag tranny with a ZF. They are slightly different lengths. If you swap a Getrag for a ZF then you need the front half of the drive shaft that goes with a ZF or the full driveshaft. It can be from any 96-98 e36 328/M3. You would be smart to try and get the shifter linkage too. It is different.

The rear half of the drive shaft is the same in all e36's 92-98 (except for some 95 M3s that used a 6-bolt CV joint at the rear, but you don't have to worry about this). Only the front half is different. The guibo is different as well. So if you can find a complete drive shaft to go with your ZF you can use just the front half. You'll probably have an easier time finding a complete drive shaft than you will finding just the front half. And it is super easy to just swap the entire shaft because the old shaft is likely fused together at the splines from years of rust and will be difficult to separate

[bbarnumboy]

i wanna get back to this topic, since a zf tranny swap may not be in my current budget.

so the output shaft play is not up or down or side to side, but the play is a rotating play?

anyone think that if i replace the output shaft flange..(the flange with the splines and a bolt and keeper that hold it in place) that it could fix my problem to purchase a new one?
or are my chances good that the splines on the gear shaft are worn as well? or that the gear shaft is what has the play?

here is a link, the part is 28Output flange-109/1992-23217504491-$182.78+core

http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...19&hg=23&fg=15

wats your guys thoughts?

[flyfishvt]

Ok my tranny is still sitting here in the room since I won't be doing the swap till spring. I put it in gear and put one hand on the input shaft of the tranny and the other hand on the output shaft (it still has the guibo attached). There is no play of any kind in the output shaft.

I would put it back in and drive the car if you need it. It took a while for it to get to this point. It'll last a while longer. But I would start looking for a replacement. Either another Getrag so you wont need the drive shaft and shifter or start looking for a deal on the whole zf swap. Deals are out there if you have patience.

[bbarnumboy]

yeah it has been like this since i got the car 4 years agon and about 45k miles ago. and doesnt seem to be getting worse but really annoys me.

currently it is still in the vehicle. the video i took was under the car with everything still attached. just looking for a quick fix if there is one, cause i have never had an issue with this trans. no pop out ever, or grinding or anything. and sitting at 205,XXX miles.

just wondering if its worth my while to try the output flange replace.

took another look at the play in the rear end today to figure out my other problem which is my clunking when i make a right turn. and the clunk only happens once each turn. it is not a repeated clunking with rotation. Starting to think it may be the axle now. but unsure.

[bbarnumboy]

So i sourced a zf tranny locally from a m3 part out. the car is a 95 M3 so the problem is, the drive shaft is that 6 bolt joint on the differential end. I know i need just the from half of theshaft...need some clariffication on this part (will the front half of that 95 6bolt shaft mate to my 318 rear shaft with no problem?) or am i better off sourcing a differnt shaft?

[flyfishvt]

The rear half of all e36 driveshafts are the same. Some have a 4 bolt flange and some have a 6 bolt flange on the dif but the shaft itself is the same. So your replacement front half will mate up to your existing shaft with no issues.

[bbarnumboy]

good news! thanks. i will report back when its all done

[choffa]

Play in the output shaft shown is called backlash:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backlash_(engineering).

Appears to be normal amount. No signs of radial clearance (shaft moving up/down) which would be a bearing failure (oil seal will fail quickly with radial clearance) and excessive whining type noise.

Chatter during clutch release is usually a warped clutch or pressure plate, damaged clutch disc, broken motor or trans mounts. Noise & clunking during turns is likely a differential problem, side gears, or limited slip clutch.

[bbarnumboy]

well the diff is being replaced with a LSD unit and the trannsmission is going for a ZF, along with a new driveline and 2 reman axles. clunk should be gone :-)

clutch releasing chatter is def not the clutch its that damn drive shaft chattering back and forth, so the word backlash would describe that pretty well. i believe it is a combination of a sloppy diff and a sloppy tranny output shaft.

[bbarnumboy]

so got the drive shaft and the transmission last night. question has now arrised

-what kind of clutch combination can i use? will a full on m3 size and spec clutch work on this setup? or do i need to use the m42 clutch and flywheel instead? how is this problem normallysolved? if m3 clutch is ok i think i willgo that route.

[bbarnumboy]

nobody knows if i can use a full m3 clutch assembly?

[flyfishvt]

If you go for a m3 clutch then you have to use an m3 flywheel too. The m3 clutch is a different diameter than the stock one you have. So to answer your question....you can use any setup you want as long as the clutch and flywheel are paired up correctly.

Did you get the shifter linkage with the ZF tranny? You will need that along with the tranny and driveshaft.

[bbarnumboy]

yes i did! found a great guy who gave me all of what i need and even a 328 front half drive shaft he had in his garage. shifter linkage and shift rod etc.

thanks for the response i will be looking for a full m3 clutch kit.

[bbarnumboy]

just want to clear a few more details up.

i am using the m3 zf tranny and will be using a m3 flyweheel, clutch and pressure plate.

now for the bearings, should i use a M3 release bearing?
and for the pilot bearing do i use the release bearing for my 318is? if from a m3?

[clanmember32]

I see that this thread is decade old now Gravedig much but the symptoms match my car almost exactly (chatter specifically into reverse, as well as popping and clunking around corners typically slow speed). I'm leaning towards a bad dual mass flywheel as mine was reused at 130k now over 200k and or LSD internals. Any input appreciated.