To you guys who went from an E36 to an E46 M3. . .

[frayed]

What are your thoughts? I have been a long time E36 M3 owner, and love the car. As I've been spending more time in a friend's M5, I have the itch again. Speed plus refinement is pretty compelling.

I'd like to know your thoughts, positive and negative. Obviously, one can add all sorts of goodies to an E36 to make it faster. I'm not so concerned with 1/4 mile comparisons, but I'd like to know of any thoughts you have on every day drivability and general ownership concerns/thoughts.

[Kevlar]

I was in your shoes... in the beginning I thought I made the wrong decision until I learned you really can't drive this car like the E36 M, you have to drive it differentl and it will reward you.

After learning that ... I'm glad I made the jump.

[VoltesV]

The E46 is clearly a better daily driver. More plush, more frills. But it will also smoke the E36, so it's kind of the best of both worlds. Speed in the E46 is just phenominal. We all love our US spec E36, but after feeling the power of the E46, I realize that the Euro E36 M3 must have been pretty bad-ass!

On track, the E36 has better chassis dynamics, due mostly to weight (or lack of) and you can certainly feel it. Still, with suspension mods, you can fix most of this on the E46. The E36 is more nimble, the E46 more Gran Tourer (but still very capable on track). Brakes are lacking on the E46 (when on track) and steering feel in a rather light, but very accurate.

That said, unless you spend LOTS of time on the track, you won't regret the E46. And in that case, get an E30! As Kevlar states, it is a different animal and must be driven as such. But that isn't a bad thing.

Oh, and did I mention the awesome power? What a fabulous engine!

[NegativeCambre]

Originally posted by VoltesV
The E46 is clearly a better daily driver. More plush, more frills. But it will also smoke the E36, so it's kind of the best of both worlds. Speed in the E46 is just phenominal. We all love our US spec E36, but after feeling the power of the E46, I realize that the Euro E36 M3 must have been pretty bad-ass!

On track, the E36 has better chassis dynamics, due mostly to weight (or lack of) and you can certainly feel it. Still, with suspension mods, you can fix most of this on the E46. The E36 is more nimble, the E46 more Gran Tourer (but still very capable on track). Brakes are lacking on the E46 (when on track) and steering feel in a rather light, but very accurate.

That said, unless you spend LOTS of time on the track, you won't regret the E46. And in that case, get an E30! As Kevlar states, it is a different animal and must be driven as such. But that isn't a bad thing.

Oh, and did I mention the awesome power? What a fabulous engine!

Well said, I 100% reflect your sentiments.

The S54 is a fantastical (nice word) engine, everytime I ride in one I am amazed by the torque and how long it pulls for. But the E46 is a heavy mother, and it deffinetely shows in tighter driving, like autocross. The less powerful and less awe-inspiring E36 M3's are capable of so much more then the E46 in an autocross setting. I imagine that advantage diminishes severely when a nice, large open road-course in the scene of your motorsport escapades.

Both are amazing cars... I personally prefer the look of the E36. Looks like it means business. But Alpine White E46 M3's still hold my gaze for a very, very long time...

Steve

[///MDriver]

You willing to give up two doors?

[frayed]

Kevin, what do you mean about learning to drive the E46 differently?

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by frayed
Kevin, what do you mean about learning to drive the E46 differently?

Power:
The E36 and E46 need to be driven different when it comes to power. The powerband in the E46 is higher than the E36. It's been a while now, so things are a bit foggy. But the E36 was a low RPM power car. At low RPMs, sub 2k maybe even sub 3k, the car felt fine. All-be-it, it wasn't fast, but it wasn't really a dog either. The E46, it's a high RPM car. I can't drive this car with the RPMs below 2k... it's frustrating. Below 3k isn't so bad if I'm just cruising with no place to really be. If you are in a hurry, you have to keep the RPMs up... definitely over 4k. The motor is more race inspired... it's just a high RPM car. When I first got mine, I tried to drive it like the E36. Didn't work well... performance wasn't availble on tap because the RPM was too low and MPG wasn't that good either because when I'd mash it, the car was throwing in so much fuel trying to get it to move. Most times now, I find myself driving around in 4th or 5th, occasionally 6th if I'm over 65 to 70mph.

Handling:
The car handles differently... it's heavier. You just have to drive it knowing that it is just that. Heavier, but it's a bit more isolated. After you get used to it... you'll find yourself going faster than you did in the E36.

Braking:
This is possibly the one thing that is not improved over the E36. I found the E36 brakes to be better in stock form. However after upgrading the pads on the E46, the braking got much better. When I went to a full blown BBK, the car seemed to have enough braking force to stop the earth's rotation.

Interior/Niceities:
Well the E46 M3 has all the nice things the E36 should have had. I have no complaints about the interior.

[frayed]

Interesting. I would have thought that at any given rpm, the E46 would have more tq than the E36? I've never compared dynos side by side though.

What has me interested these days in the E46 isn't so much the difference in performance, as it is the refinement. After getting a bunch of seat time in my friend's M5, I really have come to appreciate the lower NVH levels of that car, but I'm not keen on the weight and pricetag. While the E46 is not as luxurious, I notice that it seems more solid over bumps. . . feels more like a block of steel rather than an assembly of parts. I *really* like that.

Well, maybe it's just b/c my car has 68k on the clock. It's not a rattletrap, but cannot compare to a new E46. Thoughts?

[Kevlar]

The E46 may have more torque than the E36 at any given RPM, but remember, you don't feel it as much because of the added weight. Think of the E36 M3 motor as a street motor... capable to be driven anyway. Think of the E46 motor as being a race motor hidden in a street motors body. You need to work the E46 motor to enjoy it fully. The E46 motor has enough power to spin the rear tires easily... but it's deceptive.

The car is deceptively fast... I guess that's the refinement doing it's thing.

As for being a rattle trap... well, any car turns into a rattle trap soon enough after you've worked on the suspension. In stock form, the car is very solid, but it's got a decent amount of body roll to let you know you've reached the limits. The stock suspension was perfect if you ask me aside from being too tall and a 'pogo' like effect that would occur on certain road surfaces. If I had the option to get a stock suspension with probably reduce reight height, it would be a great selling upgrade. That's the biggest complaint... a tad too much body roll and it sits way too high. That being said... if you look at a stock M3 by itself, it looks low. However, put it next to a car that has been lowered to the calculated optimal ride height of 13.5" f and 13" r, and you'll see the car in stock form sits about as high as a school bus.

[///Mr. Three]

This is a good thread..........almost one to sticky
Thanks for the insight guys..........

-ALex

[NoSoup4U]

What type of driving are you going to do Frayed? (p.s. -- did you get my latest email/pm)

What type of track is local to you? Is it more of a technical track or a hp dominated one? IIRC, you had no problems with higher hp vehicles which makes me believe it is more of a technical track. I personally think you will be disappointed with the E46 M3.

True, it is more refined; but, look at what you are spending to get that refinement. IMHO, you are to close in price to an M5 (2000-2001). I've seen one 2000 M5 with 17K sell for 42.5K in DFW/TX area (I missed it by a couple of days ). I saw another 2001 M5 sell for $46,900 with 26k miles in Houston, TX (again, couple of days missed it). M3 or M5, hands down, M5 IMO. I've been fortunate enough to drive the E46 M3 with KW V3's, dinan exhaust, software, carbotech brake pads, and some other minor upgrades. The car just did not feel right with me, perhaps it was the lack of seat time to grow accustomed to it. However, riding in the M5 at the track ... the car felt great/comparable to the E46 M3.

The E46 M3 I would expect to be hands down better as a track animal than the M5; but, I did not feel that it was. If auto-x is your game, I believe the E46 M3 is in ASP along with the 'vettes, etc and gets its butt kicked, hehe. The steering felt light to me which I did not like. I did not mind it in the M5, because well, it's an M5. But, I did not expect it in the E46 M3.

Don't get me wrong, the E46 M3 is a great car ... but, if you want to haul kids, take clients out, and still hit the occasional HPDE or FATT, I would recommend the M5. I think the M5 is a much better overall vehicle that can serve many purposes. Besides, down the straight, the M5 will haul major butt!!!

Thus, my opinion is based on pricing. The M5's pricing in TX is very cheap for some reason compared to east coast. Comparable to E46 M3's ... I would lean toward the M5 because of 4 doors, great power, nice interior, and well, b/c it's an M5 ('nuff said).

[frayed]

James, I sent you an email with my contact info, but haven't gotten your last email. Resend your note to me at work; I'll pm you the addy.

Good points on the M5. I've been growing fond of my buddy's M5. It rocks on the street. However, it's heavy. You really do feel the weight, and it doesn't have the nimbleness of my E36. If the thing were not 4k pounds, I'd buy one used right now.

OTOH, you bring up some good points. In reality, my track driving will be down to, at best, 4 weekends a year with the demands on my time. The new M5s will surely be badass, but I'm not sure if I can get past the new 5 series looks even with 500 hp and active roll stabilization.

[12:03]

Best thread ever.

I start in first @1200 rpm (thats where the clutch is full engaged) during normal driving in my 98. Is this done in the with the change in low end "power" per-say, on the E46 (true manual box)?

[TooTall424]

slightly off topic question. People that moved from the E36 to the E46 what about leg/shoulder/hip room? I currently have a e36 and love it...for such a small nimble car it has tons of room for my 6'8" frame. How does the interior room of an E46 compare to a E36M3?

[Kevlar]

Yeah... M5 is a bigger car, much bigger car. Granted, you've got a bigger engine to move it, but I don't think it would compare to the nimbleness of an E46 M3. When tossing the car around, you'd definitely feel the difference in weight over a E46 M3.

That being said... I remember that frayed you need the extra room. I remember reading somewhere that you want a agile fast car, but you need room for 4. That's a problem with the E46M3. No four door available and sticking people behind the front seats ... well, it is not ideal. I've had people back there, but mostly they are short petite women... You can do it... but the people in the back are not happy... especially when the front seat passengers are 6ft. M5 definitely wins in the room category.

I start in first @1200 rpm (thats where the clutch is full engaged) during normal driving in my 98. Is this done in the with the change in low end "power" per-say, on the E46 (true manual box)?

This motor... even with double vanos, doesn't like to be below 2k RPM. The best example I can think of is starting in 2nd gear at idle... 1000rpm. Mash the gas. You'll feel the car, it'll start to pull... decently... but at 2k (or slightly over) the car finds itself and starts to pull... at 4k rpm the car is exploding forward. Plus, I find that if I drive it below 2k rpms, I get worse gas mileage than if I keep the RPMs up.

[12:03]

Could this be the reason that clutches seem to last longer in E36s? or am I clueless...

(you know having to start out @ a higher rpm)

[Kevlar]

Originally posted by 12:03
Could this be the reason that clutches seem to last longer in E36s? or am I clueless...

(you know having to start out @ a higher rpm)

I don't think so... as you can really start out at idle if you want to, you just don't get the instant power. I think the clutch wear is attributed to them using a different material and that fact that occasionally you are changing gears at 8000rpm as opposed to 6800. That added RPM probably puts more friction on the clutch surface... well that plus the added 100hp.

[Justin(OKC)]

Jeff,

It is very interesting that you posted this because I'm going through the same thoughts. I really like my car (how could I not) but what really attracts me to the E46 M3 is the SMG. It really isn't that I don't like shifting, but I can see some advantages to having the SMG on the track. Essentially, here's my situation:

(1) I wish I didn't have the heavy stereo in the car but it is just too nice to just throw out.

(2) I'd like some mulberry vaders but they are so hard to find. OTOH they are heavy.....why could my car not just have black interior. Then I could do some race seats and it wouldn't look too bad.

(3) My car has the 6-speed, but no SMG.

(4) What I really want is the euro motor in my car but then there are emissions issues and such with the dmv.

(5) I can probably just keep my car as a track car and buy an E46 in the next 2 years (but what about the new M5, I just don't know about the looks of it yet).

(6) If I made the E36 a track car, I'd need to take the stereo out which takes me back to (1)

I find it almost funny that you work to a point to get something really nice and almost perfect, then you start looking for something different. You can bet I won't do like Leib and trade the car for a non-S Boxster.

Anyway, enough ranting....hopefully my patient will show up soon.....what do you guys think about the SMG and do you think it's worth it. I was really thinking about a white E46 with black interior, SMG, and some weight reduction that I can park in the garage next to my white E36.

[Kevlar]

Regarding SMG...

In the beginning I was very anti-SMG. Now if I had to make the decision all over again, I do not know what I would choose.

SMG Pros - Excellent shifting all the time, major bonus on the track. No misshifts, Perfect downshifts.

SMG Cons - Launching is limited, slow speed parking lot maneuvers are iffy, No rowing your own gears. If the SMG computer gets confused... you're screwed, car is stuck in gear.

[12:03]

I was an original SMG fan. After driving one and then gettin back into my 98 I decided *when* I DO buy, it will be true manual. It was those iffy parking-lot first gear manuvers that made me shy away. Like Kevlar said, the downshifts were INCREDIBLE (the speed with witch the computer brings those RPMs up and matches them perfectly to the clutch) but I just couldnt get past those first gear manuvers.

[CBlkM3]

TooTall, I'm 6'4" and i don't have the seat all the way back in my e46 m3; definitely no room for a helmet though. try one on at your local dealer.

e36 m3 owners, don't feel the need to buy the e46 m3. my buddy has an e36 m3, and while i know it has 100hp less, it sure doesn't seem slower from my ass dyno! IMO, the e36 is an awesome ride. the e46 is just a little different. if you have to have the SMG, OTOH...

i'm not sure what you guys mean by "iffy parking maneuvers". i really like my SMG, although in this car, i'm sure i would really love the 6MT! it's definitely a different experience, but i'lll leave my old-style shifting to my old-style track car!

[saksiri]

just a few thoughts...

- E46 weighs about as much as an E36 with instructor in the car with you, no? i don't think there is any reason why E46 is so different in that regard...

- any difference in feel is probably the result of isolating out NVH and suspension setup ... so if you want more feel and precision like in the E36, put some stiffer bushings in (Ground Control hybrid front lower control arm bushings are AWESOME), change the suspension out... etc.

- i don't think they're that different. basically the same chassis/suspension design, just different setup with springs and damping. i don't think it really requires a different driving style or whatever (although stock, i would guess if you compare any car with more understeer to one with less -- or other chassis setup change -- it is going to require a 'different' driving style).

- E46 has more torque at every RPM than E36, i believe. you can probalby attribute that to dual VANOS and what not. IIRC the S54 makes 80% of its peak torque at 2000 RPM. in any case, there is no business with having to start the RPM higher and causing extra clutch wear, etc, etc... this isn't a 1.8L Integra engine just because it revs to 8000 rpm.


frayed, you're right about the car being more solid though. the car is just more modern (and BMW probably had a lot more computer horsepower when they designed it). the car is very sturdy and stiff.

you seem very well-informed, but i'll just add my two cents... take any generalizations you hear about E36 vs E46 with a grain of salt. a lot of times you get opinions that are half-baked or just based on perception alone... rather than actual real-world experience.

[Dnz]

Great thread! Very interesting. Is anyone going to explain the 1st gear -parking thing with smg? Also other than performance, what are differences you think in interior etc?

[12:03]

After a slight search I give up...

Does anyone know the weight diff (if any) between SMG and True manual

[SDbboy]

On the topic of SMG II, this car really begs for it. (BTW its 17.6 pounds heavier than a standard 6 speed manual car)

As Kevlar has already pointed out upper RPMS are where its at with the S54. I'm positive I would not be able to beat the hell out of my car as easily if I didn't have SMG II.

I consider it a bad day if I don't bounce my tach off the rev limiter (especially in 3rd!).

On the track forget about it, SMG II even makes a novice driver like me drive with authority. Not having to worry about over-reving by mis-shifting is a huge load off my shoulders.

Besides that the E46 M3 is a huge step up in the overall M3 model. Its very quiet, the interior is better quality and the suspension is more a bit softer in stock form. Doing 150 down the freeway feels and sounds like 60, its both amazing and dangerous as you can get caught speeding w/o even realizing it.

I never owned an E36 M3 but I have driven some, the nimble handling is not there on the E46 M3, neither is the low end grunt and snarl of the engine.

This engine sounds weird and its a bit of a pig relative to the previous M3 but I think its a better comprimise between road car and sports car than the E36 is.

Brian