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Thread: Chassis : E36 vs E46

  1. #26
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    At "Mod" level, most of the parts cost the same. Aero, brakes, suspension, they are all universal. I don't think there are any E46 specific parts required to be at the same pace of an E36. And the engine is what it is...goes as fast as your wallet is deep

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3MPowered View Post
    The E46 would make the better track car simply on the basis that I can't see BMW making an M3 that couldn't out perform it's older counterpart.
    Simple answer, aggravating, but ultimately true. In NASA GTS racing, a guy just came in with an E46 running max hp/weight and is running 2:05's in GTS3. Previous record was 3 or seconds slower. E46 is an improvement.
    Money is an issue always and the E36 is cheaper to build. Same hp/weight, James Clay, Seth Thomas, Mike Skeen or just the local club hotshoe is going to spank you in an E30. Driver development is the top concern
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  3. #28
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    02 worth

    Years ago, the same question was often bantered about concerning E30 and E36 chassis.

    In that case however, there were SIGNIFICANT differences.

    Aero: was NOT comparable, not by a long stretch of the imagination, even if you add some stuff to an E30, its a brick, and you're not going to change that easily. So on long tracks, its really close to insurmountable.

    Suspension: Well, the Z link set up on the E36 is hard to beat, no matter how many titles the E30M3 had nationally, that is a significant difference.

    Weight: Undeniably in favor of the E30, and its a massive difference.

    Rigidity: Favors the E36 dramatically too, but since we're sort of saying cages can make up for this at some level, this is not a HUGE difference.

    Why bring this up? Well, IMO, the differences on these 4 items are so close to indistinguishable between the E36 and E46, that it really becomes personal preference and bias.

    The guys that follow the Colin Chapman mindset, are going to say that the E36 is favored because you start out so much lighter, you've got less work to do to add lightness to go faster.

    The guys that believe suspension is everything will favor the E46 slightly for reasons of tirewidth, roll center, rigidity, geometry etc...

    Personally, I think at the financial level most of us operate at, taking weight off a car is an expensive proposal, and I'd prefer to start with a light aerodynamic car with an advanced suspension, and would favor an E36 over either of the other common platforms racing...E30, E46.

    If you're convinced that the reason you lost a race is because of the different control arm geometry or the rake of the windshield or the extra stiffness beyond the cage that an E46 has...well.... OK...but I think there are bigger more significant reasons you may not have won.
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  4. #29
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    Wow I never thought this topic would get that much attention!

    Well I've been looking at LSx swaps since a good while now, looked at many car options and decided maybe like 1.5 year ago BMW was the best one for it. Never found any clean car to start with (blame canadian winter) and it wasn't a good timing either at the time, ended up buying a friend WRX... was nice spent some $ to turn it into a sti, then realised fast car for DD sucks, I can barely have any fun driving it on the street and I don't want to take that on the track.

    Back to thinking about the LSx, trying to "plan" things up a little, because I don't when exactly I will do it, but some day I will, I should of did it instead of buying that WRX to .

    Anyway... enough blabla. I'm asking this because since it would be a swap, what motor it comes with or that the E46 M3 as 100 more hp doesn't matter, as both car would be prepared pretty much the same level (what ever level it ends up being) it would be great to know what chassis is better to start up with.

    Price is a factor for sure, but if you only use the rolling chassis the price difference gets really lower and it all start to make sense. So the goal is not necesseraly getting what ever is the fastest, I just about getting the more out of your money (read as : if E46 M3 is only a few grand more expensive but ends up being a way better chassis... what is a few grand over a complete build-up?) I just want to think it out, and do it right the first time (or the second time, considering that WRX is a great loss for now)

    So for now seems to be E46 M3 the winner... since everyone (or almost) prefered the E36 for price reasons mainly?

    Keep thoughts coming, it's always fun to discuss anyway

  5. #30
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    Is the E46M3 chassis reinforced compared to an ordinary E46?

  6. #31
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    Why put a bastard engine in a BMW? What LS motor is as reliable as makes as much power per litre as an S54/52?
    whatchu got

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcrist View Post
    Why put a bastard engine in a BMW? What LS motor is as reliable as makes as much power per litre as an S54/52?
    Hp/Liter is a ricer term if u ask me
    Hp/Dollar is what conscious guys looks for
    And in the end, its Hp/Tq that matters not for how many cylinders or liters you have, that doesn't matter.

    Now, let's not start that over here please, no wonder I started the thread not mentionning it. It's about chassis discussion, not what ever guy whats to do with a car he bought in his garage. Heck I could just buy one and throw it in the river if I wanted (I'm just not that rich tho)

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
    Is the E46M3 chassis reinforced compared to an ordinary E46?
    I don't think so, it does have a beefier read-end (and a LSD), different front suspension I think and the wider body. For the price difference between the E46 and E46 M3 and considering you would want the E46 M3 read-end, it's just way easier to start with the M3 and not worry about tire, would end up quite close in price anyway, minus the headaches
    Last edited by gisqc; 10-15-2010 at 06:16 PM.

  8. #33
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    between the E46 and E46 M3 and considering you would want the E46 M3 read-end,
    Other than people who boost or LS swap, how much do I even have to worry about the rear diff? It's not like track driving beats them up. I'm guessing the only issue would be heat which any diff would have a problem with.

    What about the problem with the early E46's and the rear floor/suspension needing replacement? How much of an issue is that and when did BMW rectify the problem?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
    Other than people who boost or LS swap, how much do I even have to worry about the rear diff? It's not like track driving beats them up. I'm guessing the only issue would be heat which any diff would have a problem with.

    What about the problem with the early E46's and the rear floor/suspension needing replacement? How much of an issue is that and when did BMW rectify the problem?
    They never did rectify the problem. They just inspected them and repaired if needed. Only way to fix is to buy reinforcement plates and weld in.
    Eric WONGer
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  10. #35
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    Ricer these nuts. That's an idiotic comment.
    Money? How many LS motors can you buy out of the junkyard with 130k on the clock and race for 3 seasons? None. A friend of mine is on his 3rd LS7 in his Z06. Mustang friend on his 3rd motor. Both 2007 or newer cars.
    Get an E46 m3 and replace the S54 with a small block. Awesome
    whatchu got

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnetic1 View Post
    They never did rectify the problem. They just inspected them and repaired if needed. Only way to fix is to buy reinforcement plates and weld in.
    Guess it's the same fix that is needed on the E36 for similar problems?

    And for the E46 rear-end, E46 M3 is the only one which came with a factory LSD in those years, big power or no you will want it on the track.

    Anything else to know about the chassis? Let's not make this a which motor is better debate, there's way enough threads about that around on the forum.

  12. #37
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    Basically like I mentioned, BMW didn't learn from the issues with the E36 platform.

    History repeated itself, as it does all the time in life.

  13. #38
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    History repeated itself, as it does all the time in life.
    I was just looking at a video. Showed the diff going up and down 2-3" when it was under load. Completely torn loose.
    Last edited by MasterKwan; 10-15-2010 at 09:06 PM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcrist View Post
    Simple answer, aggravating, but ultimately true. In NASA GTS racing, a guy just came in with an E46 running max hp/weight and is running 2:05's in GTS3. Previous record was 3 or seconds slower. E46 is an improvement.
    Money is an issue always and the E36 is cheaper to build. Same hp/weight, James Clay, Seth Thomas, Mike Skeen or just the local club hotshoe is going to spank you in an E30. Driver development is the top concern
    it's REALLY hard to believe, all things being equal, that an E46 is going to be 3 seconds faster than an E36. that's all about car setup and driver skill. especially at our amateur level. most of the GTS3 E36s (if not all of them) i see are not maximized for tires or suspension because you guys are crossing over from IP so you're quite limited.


    Quote Originally Posted by M3 Euro LTW View Post
    If you're convinced that the reason you lost a race is because of the different control arm geometry or the rake of the windshield or the extra stiffness beyond the cage that an E46 has...well.... OK...but I think there are bigger more significant reasons you may not have won.
    agreed. i'm building an E21 now. significant "disadvantage" in all areas except weight. I'm only doing it b/c i think it will be fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmitro View Post
    it's REALLY hard to believe, all things being equal, that an E46 is going to be 3 seconds faster than an E36. that's all about car setup and driver skill. especially at our amateur level. most of the GTS3 E36s (if not all of them) i see are not maximized for tires or suspension because you guys are crossing over from IP so you're quite limited.
    .
    Sorta. Prev. lap record was 3 sec slower, but that wasnt the fastest Ive run in my car there. (JCrist was talking about me by the way and trying to be nice not to say I suck). Best Ive ever done I think in my E36 in GTS3 trim was a high206/low 207. Josh was pretty close and got that time by maybe 1 second. 1 sec. difference between the two is easy considering the S54's better torque and suspension differences. Granted, you could slap a S54 into the E36 and prolly run close, but Im not sure I wanna tracel down that road just yet. Going to bump down to GTS2 for now since that is where the fields are biggest in Mid-Atlantic.

    Also, the sprint races we do are roughly 20 minutes long. Too short to really make the weight a significant disadvantage by way of overheating the tires.
    Last edited by magnetic1; 10-15-2010 at 09:55 PM.
    Eric WONGer
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gisqc View Post
    .... (E46 Chassis): it does have a beefier read-end (and a LSD), different front suspension I think and the wider body. For the price difference between the E46 and E46 M3 and considering you would want the E46 M3 read-end, it's just way easier to start with the M3 and not worry about tire, would end up quite close in price anyway, minus the headaches
    About the only semi un-useful data point I can add here to back up this statement is the E46 chassis has a desirable 210mm differential standard versus the 188mm E36 M3 (only) differential. Mounting bushing reinforcements and/or chassis reinforcements are still required on both if I'm not mistaken and has already been stated.

    John
    The E36 LS2 guy with no other opinion besides that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maynor View Post
    About the only semi un-useful data point I can add here to back up this statement is the E46 chassis has a desirable 210mm differential standard versus the 188mm E36 M3 (only) differential. Mounting bushing reinforcements and/or chassis reinforcements are still required on both if I'm not mistaken and has already been stated.

    John
    The E36 LS2 guy with no other opinion besides that.
    From what I read though, only the M3 has the 210mm diff. People tried to swap out LSD from E36 into E46 diff case and it wouldn't even fit in, I never found out what size it was, but prolly close to the E36 one, maybe even smaller if it wouldn't fit?

  18. #43
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    Regarding the E46 diff (and off topic, sorry), the ring gear size is 210mm so to put a smaller E36 ring and pinion into an E46 diff... doesn't make a lot of sense. The E46 diff won't transfer to the E36 without some welding surgery so that's out. Engine swaps can be done but that's another story.

    Chassis to chassis, I'd go for an E46 myself but I'm already married to the one I got so that's neither here nor there.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by gisqc View Post
    From what I read though, only the M3 has the 210mm diff. People tried to swap out LSD from E36 into E46 diff case and it wouldn't even fit in, I never found out what size it was, but prolly close to the E36 one, maybe even smaller if it wouldn't fit?
    Diffsonline can build a non M e46 diff in whatever gearing you want.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maynor View Post
    Regarding the E46 diff (and off topic, sorry), the ring gear size is 210mm so to put a smaller E36 ring and pinion into an E46 diff... doesn't make a lot of sense. The E46 diff won't transfer to the E36 without some welding surgery so that's out. Engine swaps can be done but that's another story.

    Chassis to chassis, I'd go for an E46 myself but I'm already married to the one I got so that's neither here nor there.
    When I mean't wouldn't fit, it's because the E36 unit wouldn't even fit the casing, wouldn't that mean the diff is smaller? They had the grind the crap out of the E46 case to get it to fit, and I'm not even sure it worked in the end

    Quote Originally Posted by ScotcH View Post
    Diffsonline can build a non M e46 diff in whatever gearing you want.
    That's for sure, but they were trying to get a cheap LSD solution for E46, they weren't very track oriented just disapointed by the open diff. I only used this example to compare sizes. If a 188mm diff unit can't find the E46 casing, how can it uses a 210mm ring? (Anyone have info on non-M E46 diff sizes?)
    Last edited by gisqc; 10-15-2010 at 11:34 PM.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnetic1 View Post
    Sorta. Prev. lap record was 3 sec slower, but that wasnt the fastest Ive run in my car there. (JCrist was talking about me by the way and trying to be nice not to say I suck). Best Ive ever done I think in my E36 in GTS3 trim was a high206/low 207. Josh was pretty close and got that time by maybe 1 second. 1 sec. difference between the two is easy considering the S54's better torque and suspension differences. Granted, you could slap a S54 into the E36 and prolly run close, but Im not sure I wanna tracel down that road just yet. Going to bump down to GTS2 for now since that is where the fields are biggest in Mid-Atlantic.

    Also, the sprint races we do are roughly 20 minutes long. Too short to really make the weight a significant disadvantage by way of overheating the tires.
    i'm sure you don't suck, you've been racing longer than I have

    but crossing over from IP/JP, you don't have fender flares, wider tires (or even slicks?), or some of the suspension /motor bits that would make you as fast as the E46. It's really all relative, not absolute. stock vs stock i'm sure the e46 is a bit better, but given a few choice mods i bet the E36 would be just as fast if not faster.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcrist View Post
    Why put a bastard engine in a BMW? What LS motor is as reliable as makes as much power per litre as an S54/52?
    while i cant believe i'm gonna say it, as i'm no fan of the idea
    Almost all of them. LS3 might be the best one going.
    and they're small, light, mounted lower and a bit farther back.

    i'm no expert, they have issues, but nothing worse than say the S54 bearing
    issue.

    and my favorite part, free open source tuning software, ONE cam that'll make 100whp for $500 instead of 2 that make 40 for $1500 etc. etc. its probably the most raced series of motors ever

    end of the day tho, i'd never put one in an E46 M3

    oh and sent you a pm about the transport thing

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmitro View Post
    i'm sure you don't suck, you've been racing longer than I have

    but crossing over from IP/JP, you don't have fender flares, wider tires (or even slicks?), or some of the suspension /motor bits that would make you as fast as the E46. It's really all relative, not absolute. stock vs stock i'm sure the e46 is a bit better, but given a few choice mods i bet the E36 would be just as fast if not faster.
    Yea, but then youre talking about a pretty large expense. Widebody, brakes, wheels, tires, etc etc. Throw in the S54 conversion and now youre talking some serious money. Which is kind of the gist of this thread... in order to make the E36 stack up to the E46, some pretty involved modifications would be needed, whereas the E46 starts off from scratch being better. The S54 is also easier to detune, so you could easily flatten out the peak HP for a class structure like GTS.
    Eric WONGer
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    ah, ok. i just saw the "E36 vs E46".
    agree with you

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    Quote Originally Posted by gisqc View Post
    When I mean't wouldn't fit, it's because the E36 unit wouldn't even fit the casing, wouldn't that mean the diff is smaller? They had the grind the crap out of the E46 case to get it to fit, and I'm not even sure it worked in the end



    That's for sure, but they were trying to get a cheap LSD solution for E46, they weren't very track oriented just disapointed by the open diff. I only used this example to compare sizes. If a 188mm diff unit can't find the E46 casing, how can it uses a 210mm ring? (Anyone have info on non-M E46 diff sizes?)
    The e46 non-M uses a 188 mm ring gear. I can't tell you what the difference is from the e36 M which is also a 188 but the e36 LSD will simply not transfer to the e46 non-M housing (although there are plenty of great custom built units available from diffsonline, koala motorsport, performance gearing, etc).

    The e46 M uses the larger 210 mm ring gear along with a completely different housing with different mounting points and thus a different subframe design than the e46 non-M. I would also expect that anyone doing any serious tracking with an e46 M would want to swap the speed sensing M-variable diff (it uses a viscous shear pump to engage the clutch pack) for a more conventional torque sensing unit. If looking to build serious power, the 210 would still be the place to start. That said, the entire e46 M rear end will bolt right up to an e46 non-M although you still wouldn't have the M's wider fenders.
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