ORings - The consolidated thread

[fritzintn]

A 'Groove-o-matic' and dreams of 30psi.

So upon opening my awesomely named 'O-ring tool', I went drudging through old threads for the proper wire to purchase. Which lead to all kinds of differing opinions, theories, and questionable results - summarized below:

Who's doing what:
BMWSOB: Stainless wire w/ Titan gasket. Figure 8 style.
Mike R: Copper wire, grooves in head , no receiver groove in block, stock gasket
m3_madbimmer: .030" Copper (.022" groove depth), block only
Sniz: .041 Copper, groove depth of .033 (.008 above deck), .140 MLS gasket
thespeedfactory: stainless .041
jfdmas: ? receiver groove, copper headgasket, stainless wire
highboostingm3: (M52) copper wire, block only w/ MLS
highboostingm3: M50NV (old setup), dual offset o'ring w/ MLS
djborya: .041 copper
MrBlonde: block and head, unknown specs
DC47A - ? , s52 w/ 'non-figure 8'
M3Jasper: copper wire, head only
bim553er: s52, figure8
GT35Rm3: block, steel rings, stock head gasket
multiplex: block, copper rings, stock headgasket



DIY Threads:
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthr...ht=isky&page=7
Sniz: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ht=isky&page=6
after: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1444191
multiplex: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...t=oring&page=2

e30tech: http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthr...highlight=isky
Suburu poo: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1812470
HotRod Magazine: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ild/index.html
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...er_blocks.aspx
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...ing/index.html
SCE instructions: http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...truc-oring.gif


Tools needed:
Isky 'Groov-o-matic' ($280 or $60 rental fee?): http://iskycams.carshopinc.com/produ.../30765/200-GRM

For all M50 based engines you want the 100-GRM tool, which is for bores 3-1/8" to 3-3/4"

BHJ's ballin' tool: http://www.bhjproducts.com/bhj_conte...ooling/org.php
Access to a mill or other such 'machine shop' grade toolset

Wire:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#oxygen-free...r-wire/=8kgy07
welding wire?

Consensus is to:
Use Copper w/ MLS
Use Stainless w/ OEM ?[unsure as to what McCoy/Techno550 is suggesting...]
.008-.012 protrusion

there are a few different "techniques" that involve orings. here it is being discussed to use a receiver groove to push something like a MLS or a copper gasket into. That seems to be common for drag racing. a single very precise groove in the block, with no groove in the head, and a non-solid o-ring is more common for endurance race motors.

different techniques. different goals. different applications.

use heliflex ring, not hollow.

oring in the block only if using mls. oring with reciever groove in head for copper gasket.

Recommended o-ring protrusion is not more than 25% of gasket thickness. Example: Gasket thickness .043", O-ring protrusion height is .008" to .010". This standard works with all thicknesses that are .050" and less. Gaskets that are thicker than .050" do not require o-ring height more than .012".

Isky Tool, wire, and extra bolts/hooks used for reaching #6:




Normal style 'O' Ring:






'Figure 8' style:




O Ring'd head by BavSol:



multiplex's install:







I'll try to keep this thread updated for future use. I'd like to hear some suggestions/links for the proper wire material though...

Anyone have anything to add? Particularly what type of Stainless wire to use....

[thespeedfactory]

Standard aircraft safety wire is .041

[LukeG]

Nice post!


I'm using copper o-rings in block and stock gasket as per Mike R.'s bulletproof recommendation.

[Sniz]

to be clear, on that one photo above I changed the technique of laying the wire so that I have more continuous wire. I could draw it out if someone needs to see.

[Matutino]

to be clear, on that one photo above I changed the technique of laying the wire so that I have more continuous wire. I could draw it out if someone needs to see.

How is yours holding up? did you fix the issues at 6k you were having?

[Sniz]

How is yours holding up? did you fix the issues at 6k you were having?

holding up great and no thats not fixed.......little baffled on it

[Martinator]

My e34 535 has a fresh m30b35 with copper rings in the block. It has been healthy since installed, last January. This motor hasn't had any coolant hose over-pressurization issues. The pistons were relieved by the machinist, to a just-flat profile. It is proving to be reliable, well under 10lbs o' boost.
My images are hosted on the mye28 uber uploader; there is a short thread, http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=73792.

[teamsoy]

I vote FAQ.

[themadhatter]

I vote FAQ.

this thread has certainly earned it. Well done fritzintn.

[SiGmA]

Excellent job OP. I plan to follow suit using copper orings and an OEM headgasket as per Mike Radowski's suggestions.

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

I would like to this as well some day.

[fritzintn]

So I'm bumping this thread for a few reasons:

- What is the correct part number for the 'Groove-o-matic'?
- Looking for long term feedback for those who've been running o-rings for a while.
- to promote further discussion on stainless vs copper (welding wire?)...
- updated list of build threads (multiplex, etc)


-----------

So I finally got around to attempting the install today - however I quickly found out my Groove-o-matic is not the correct size. The diameter of the tool is larger than the engine bore - so that kinda won't work.

Anyone have a correct part number or would be willing to rent out their tool?

pics:

[Keith1054]

For all M50 based engines you want the 100-GRM tool, which is for bores 3-1/8" to 3-3/4"

[Sr20Tz3]

nice thread

[Arctic///M3]

Just as an update, currently www.carshopinc.com does not carry the 100-GRM for our m50 motors. You can contact isky cams directly.

(323)770-0930
Price of the tool: 320
Rental: 80

[dcvee]

I rent mine out...however, you'll have to schedule via PM. It's VERY busy the next 2-3 weeks!!


Don

[olsen185]

For all those with experience, how long should a first timer budget for the o-ring process? My head is already off, just need an idea of how long it takes to set up and use the o ring tool.

Thanks

[tciambotti1]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ISK-100-GRM/

Just put mine on order.

3.125-3.750inch, which is 79.4mm-95.25mm

[SiGmA]

For all those with experience, how long should a first timer budget for the o-ring process? My head is already off, just need an idea of how long it takes to set up and use the o ring tool.

Thanks

2-4hr. It took a lot longer than I thought it would. I think it took me about 3hr. Including taking my block out of storage, prepping for cutting, cutting, cleaning, oiling, and putting it back into storage.

[Arctic///M3]

It sort of depends on how neat and precise you like to be about your work.

If you plan on doing it with the block in the car it takes a little longer, the tools mickeymouse handles are too long to get to the 6th cylinder which also prolongs the job, You can pick up some shorter bolts from the hardware store to make this easier on yourself. I did three different passes using different depths until finally reaching the desired one. If you have the block out of the car it will certainly make it easier.

[e36ALPINE]

2-4hr. It took a lot longer than I thought it would. I think it took me about 3hr. Including taking my block out of storage, prepping for cutting, cutting, cleaning, oiling, and putting it back into storage.

I agree, once you get going it's not too bad. I probably spend 45min to an hour re-reading everything 10 times and making sure I was setting it up correctly and trying to measure EXACTLY in the middle of cylinders 1+2. Once you get over the fear of ruining your block and actually start cutting the grooves and putting some elbow grease into it it's actually pretty quick. But for a first time job I would say at the very least 2 hours total.

[olsen185]

Awesome thanks for the info! Is the Isky directions online anywhere? I want to read up before I get the tool from Donavan. I haven't found the directions anywhere yet.

[bigugly]

sigh. i lost my entire post.


summary:

i blew my cometic with S54 ARP2000 studs on my S52. combustion pressure into the cooling system. pile'o'shit gasket :pist: it has leaked every fluid or pressure its suposed to keep from not
i am going to cut rings in the head, and insert stainless rings, instead of wire.
the question is, what gasket will survive with 30+PSI and orings(rings in my case)?

[milKt]

PPF Pyramid Ring gasket.

proven to over 40 psi,
holding combustion on a few of the Swede's fastest, most powerful cars.

Beep

[bigugly]

those rings look like the same idea i was thinking of.


the information i found on them say to install in the block and it will press to the head, but i dont like that idea,
from SCE's website

The O-Ring seals equally well in either the block or head. While it is easier to install O-rings in the block using a boring bar or a manual O-Ring cutter, it is preferable to install O-rings in the cylinder head when using aluminum heads on an iron block. This arrangement will prevent friction brinneling (indentation) of the aluminum head sealing surface at the O-ring.

which in my opinion makes sense. so i suppose i buy that headgasket and cut my head accordingly to accept those rings.....
thats an elring gasket, wondering if i can just buy the damn thing for the 80 bucks they are, and just machine my own rings then :shrug: sure beats 500 bucks :eek