E39 Project on the Road

[jnyost]

Nice!

[killaM3]

nice. i wonder how much would it cost.

[Pzary3233]

If you have to ask... too much...

I would say less then an E36 with a "kit"

But a LOT more time in fabrication... MORE if you didn't have the right tools.

So somewhere between $5-$10K as a VERY rough estimate

[garretvs]

Awsome job, Rob!! The E39 is the one we all would like to do! Please tell / describe how the wiring & systems integration was done. Everything work (except for things that the BMW ECM provided) - climate control panel, etc? Tip of the hat to you!

[mmm635]

Very nice work man!

[rao]

Thanks for the compliments.

I hate you RAO! I wish mine was done. Looks great. Especially with factory airbox. Very stealth. Once I get mine done we will have to get together.

Sounds like fun

Awsome job, Rob!! The E39 is the one we all would like to do! Please tell / describe how the wiring & systems integration was done. Everything work (except for things that the BMW ECM provided) - climate control panel, etc? Tip of the hat to you!

Wiring was pretty stright forward, but the CAN BUS is a major PITA. If you have a 97 or a 6 cylinder car WITHOUT the IKE dash it would make things a lot easier. I really don't care about the OBC and making that work wouldn't be close to worth the effort. Right now I have the das functional except for the tach, but I am planning on making my own instrument panel which gives me a lot more options. I have done all of the wiring rfor the AC but still have to make up the lines. It should work, but as an example of the madness of the CAN, the AC compressor request generated when you hit the AC button on the dash is NEVER an analogue signal, it is totally within the network (it was supposed to be, as was a tach signal but the WDS did not match up with my car on several key circuits, which was very frustrating) so I will hvae to use a serperate switch to turn the compressor on, wich is not a big deal but annoying.

Another example is the reverse lights on an auto car the signal to turn on the reverse lights is totally within the network so I had to make my own circuit.

[garretvs]

We were looking into the E39 for doing a swap ... bought the maintenance manuals ... which came as a 2-volume set: one is almost entirely electrical. Props to you to take it on!

[AutoRotate]

That's why the model I chose for the swap is a 528i manual! Should be less frustration.
Any interest in selling me a wiring harness? Anyone?

[BRAAP]

Thanks for the info Rob, hope you dont mind but I have a couple more questions I'd like to ask your build thread that maybe you and/or garretvs could answer. (If you prefer I not clutter up your thread with this sort of talk, my apologies, I can take the discussion to another thread).
Hard one first;

a) Is there a chart or does anyone know the break down over the E39 production run of changes BMW made to the electrical system regarding the CAN-bus system and the non CAN-bus systems?
b) Is the BMW CAN-bus digital signal based on AC or DC frequency, Pulse width, voltage, or binary/code in nature?
c) Has anyone heard of or read about any pioneers being able to get non CAN-bus systems to communicate with CAN-bus systems through any sort of interface?

...
Wiring was pretty stright forward, but the CAN BUS is a major PITA. If you have a 97 or a 6 cylinder car WITHOUT the IKE dash it would make things a lot easier...

I interpret that as all '98 and newer E39's with the 4.0 V8 will be of similar hassle,
1) Possibly some post '98 6 cylinder cars would be less hassle?
2) Would that be only to to certain year where all E39 shared the same CAN-bus network across all systems, 2000+?
3) How does one identify if a particular E39 has the IKE dash or doesn't have it?

...
.... as an example of the madness of the CAN, the AC compressor request generated when you hit the AC button on the dash is NEVER an analogue signal, it is totally within the network (it was supposed to be, as was a tach signal but the WDS did not match up with my car on several key circuits, which was very frustrating) so I will hvae to use a serperate switch to turn the compressor on, wich is not a big deal but annoying...

4) Were there any manual climate control options offered in the E39, (like the E36 which came both ways, manual dials or digital auto).
5) (long shot, but...) Do you think one of the earlier non CAN-bus climate "panels" form another BMW chassis could be adapted/integrated into the E39, not only physically in the dash but also electronically, bypassing the CAN-bus to contorl the vaoirus vent doors, heater valves, monitor the various temp sensors?

...
Another example is the reverse lights on an auto car the signal to turn on the reverse lights is totally within the network so I had to make my own circuit.

6) So the manual trans cars have a more conventional reverse-light actuation, i.e. a simple switch in the trans, power, light bulb, and ground circuit?
7) Does this apply to the entire run of E39 or was there cut off year that assimilate the manual trans cars to more CAN-bus network wiring?

[rao]

Shouldn't you finish one car before you start on the other :

I am tempted to say that I will answer one question for free, but then I have to start charging ( I still like the thread that came from)

Thanks for the info Rob, hope you dont mind but I have a couple more questions I'd like to ask your build thread that maybe you and/or garretvs could answer. (If you prefer I not clutter up your thread with this sort of talk, my apologies, I can take the discussion to another thread).
Hard one first;

a) Is there a chart or does anyone know the break down over the E39 production run of changes BMW made to the electrical system regarding the CAN-bus system and the non CAN-bus systems?

No. The BMW WDS (which is available online) shows the changes to the wiring diagrams mid-model, but even BMWs own source is not accurate as I found out

b) Is the BMW CAN-bus digital signal based on AC or DC frequency, Pulse width, voltage, or binary/code in nature?

I have absolutely no idea.

c) Has anyone heard of or read about any pioneers being able to get non CAN-bus systems to communicate with CAN-bus systems through any sort of interface?

It is like the Yeti - many have heard of it being done but no one has actually seen it - sort of like you guys and your multi-year e36 swaps

I interpret that as all '98 and newer E39's with the 4.0 V8 will be of similar hassle,
1) Possibly some post '98 6 cylinder cars would be less hassle?

Yes to the first part of that; in fact, post 98 build cars will be worse

The IKE instrument cluster is a good marker for the level on annoyance - if the car has it, prepare for the pain

2) Would that be only to to certain year where all E39 shared the same CAN-bus network across all systems, 2000+?

Probably; I didn't do any real research on 2000+ cars

3) How does one identify if a particular E39 has the IKE dash or doesn't have it?

From the back it is easy It has 3 plugs, the KOM cluster has 2. From the front I beleive that the KOM cluster does not hvae the text box at the bottom, but I an not 100% sure since I don't have a KOM cluster car

4) Were there any manual climate control options offered in the E39, (like the E36 which came both ways, manual dials or digital auto).

That's a good one

5) (long shot, but...) Do you think one of the earlier non CAN-bus climate "panels" form another BMW chassis could be adapted/integrated into the E39, not only physically in the dash but also electronically, bypassing the CAN-bus to contorl the vaoirus vent doors, heater valves, monitor the various temp sensors?

That's a better one

6) So the manual trans cars have a more conventional reverse-light actuation, i.e. a simple switch in the trans, power, light bulb, and ground circuit?

They appear to. It is ot a big deal to wire it up the way that I did; I only offered it up as an example of the extent to which they used the network.

7) Does this apply to the entire run of E39 or was there cut off year that assimilate the manual trans cars to more CAN-bus network wiring?

The difference is due to the manual tranny cars having a conventional reverse switch :eek how pedestrian and the auto cars sending a signal to the TCU, which ten sends a signal to the Light Unit, which then sends power to the reverse lights. I wouldn't get to hung up on the reverse lights as I said before, they are not a big deal.

[BRAAP]

3) How does one identify if a particular E39 has the IKE dash or doesn't have it?

From the back it is easy It has 2 plugs, the KOM cluster has 2. From the front I beleive that the KOM cluster does not hvae the text box at the bottom, but I an not 100% sure since I don't have a KOM cluster car

Typo?... They both have 2 plugs? ... The distinguishing factor then is?....

7) Does this apply to the entire run of E39 or was there cut off year that assimilate the manual trans cars to more CAN-bus network wiring?

I wouldn't get to hung up on the reverse lights as I said before, they are not a big deal.

Good point.

Thanks again for all your help, greatly appreciated.

[Pzary3233]

This would be an awesome next project... Darn Land Cruiser is next...

[rao]

Typo?... They both have 2 plugs? ... The distinguishing factor then is?....



Good point.

Thanks again for all your help, greatly appreciated.

I corrected my original post - the IKE has 3 plugs and the KOM has 2.

No problem.

[MikeJTR]

Shouldn't you finish one car before you start on the other :

Handsome Rob,
You are such a prick!
And that is your best quality.

For a person in your occupation (a professional prick), I find it disturbing that you never seem to have enough money to weigh your car with a full tank of gas, so that we know the true difference between the weight of the stock car, vs the swapped car.



Braap: See this website for possible CAN information:

http://sailesmarketing.com/all-produ...us-interfaces/

[rao]

Handsome Rob,
You are such a prick!
And that is your best quality.

For a person in your occupation (a professional prick), I find it disturbing that you never seem to have enough money to weigh your car with a full tank of gas, so that we know the true difference between the weight of the stock car, vs the swapped car.



Braap: See this website for possible CAN information:

http://sailesmarketing.com/all-produ...us-interfaces/

I am offended by this

The car was weighed in stock trim with no gas since I was about to take it apart and didn't want to deal with a full tank.

The products in that link will get you nowhere, but I suspect you already knew that and are just spreading misinformation for the fun of it

[Tongboy]

don't feel bad rao, he's just mad you can put two cars in the road in the time it takes him to think about one

[BRAAP]

don't feel bad rao, he's just mad you can put two cars in the road in the time it takes him to think about one

I think the official count is 3.... but who's keeping score?!

[Tongboy]

I think the official count is 3.... but who's keeping score?!

now you're just twisting the knife on yourself

most cars could use 6.6 liters of power though

[BRAAP]

now you're just twisting the knife on yourself

Yeah, good point...
In retrospect, refinement of the conversion to keep inline with BMW's concept of refined performance takes time.

...
most cars could use 6.6 liters of power though

Yeup!

[Pzary3233]

Yeah I already picked up another project myself... but resisting temptation to tear it apart...

Between the two needly ladies (Firebird and M3) I don't need a third...

[hefftone]

I'd really like to have a nasty N/A LSx in my M3, but also really want a E38 7 series with a turbo'd truck LSX and an auto.... yes, I want both. But honestly, I'd be lucky just to have one, so an E39 w/ swap is looking very attractive to me these days.

[listed5]

Any interest in performing this swap for others once you work out all the kinks (if any)? I have a 97 non-can 540 6sp. I've spent a ton of money in an effort to correct an engine miss. Would gladly give the car up for a few months in lieu of a working high power drive train!
Thanks,
Chris

[Pzary3233]

I'd really like to have a nasty N/A LSx in my M3, but also really want a E38 7 series with a turbo'd truck LSX and an auto.... yes, I want both. But honestly, I'd be lucky just to have one, so an E39 w/ swap is looking very attractive to me these days.

har har har! Allll we need is a HUGE Money Tree!

Any interest in performing this swap for others once you work out all the kinks (if any)? I have a 97 non-can 540 6sp. I've spent a ton of money in an effort to correct an engine miss. Would gladly give the car up for a few months in lieu of a working high power drive train!
Thanks,
Chris

I'll do an e36

[rao]

Any interest in performing this swap for others once you work out all the kinks (if any)? I have a 97 non-can 540 6sp. I've spent a ton of money in an effort to correct an engine miss. Would gladly give the car up for a few months in lieu of a working high power drive train!
Thanks,
Chris

I have had several people ask and I would do it but it would cost a lot.

I'll do an e36

Quit moving in on my action

[Pzary3233]

Rob,

You are building 5'ers now


I also agree it would cost alot... parts PLUS time... yeah... my time is worth a lot to me.