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Thread: E30 S52 turbo track toy build

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eloff19 View Post
    Looks like a blast

    Judging by your footage it appears as though VEMS is working very well for you. I'm particularly intrigued with this step here:

    as this will be my winter project. Still unsure of which standalone route to go.

    I was wondering what your thoughts/experiences were with the conversion [VEMS in particular] if you'd care to share. Feel free to take it to PM, as it is not my intention to dilute your build thread.
    Thanks man, yeah I love it! It's significantly more responsive than the stock maf/413 setup. The throttle response takes me back to my days with the S38, where the throttle was an on/off switch, right there.

    I racked my brain over which EMS to choose for months last year. I admit to being a brand whore so I instinctively looked towards Motec. When I realized I would not benefit enough from what they offer to justify the price, I moved on to AEM and some others. But I with the corner of my eye, I was looking at VEMS, which offered things most of the others short of a pimped out Motex box did (eg onboard logging, AEM has fixed 512k, VEMS uses SD card - log your ass off). But it's built by what in my mind was a group of Hungarian kids working after school for the fun of it and is a no-name (disclaimer to VEMS guys: I know this is not true, I'm just saying this is the impression I had from the amateur website and the fact that I'd never really heard of it before).

    But the real kicker was the fact that I was pretty much on my own for most of these. For a time I was set on buying AEM but I tried to find base maps and couldn't find them anywhere. Most people who run various EMSs had boosted engines and many of them didn't even have them running full sequential.

    All this time I was drooling over the videos of the inspiration for this build, Jay's (multiplex). I decided to drop him a line to see what he uses and if he could hold my hand a bit to get going and through any trouble I run into. To my surprise, I got an essay back and he's been helping me ever since. His config got me way ahead of the game. I wired it differently (used the stock wiring, with some obvious changes like MAP sensor, and additions like the EGT and AFR) so my pinout was different, and being NA for now, some setup stuff I had to change BUT...

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvP7a12YeGs[/ame]

    Thanks to taking my time to figure things out and having smart people help me through it, it fired up on the very first try! I don't know a lot of people who can say that for a straight OEM managed swap.

    So the real key isn't anywhere near which EMS you choose (Megasquirt or McLaren), but rather how accessible is the support from people who have already done something at least similar to what you want to do. Sure, there are those out there who can figure all this poop out in a few hours on their own because they've done it a hundred times. But I'm guessing since you've asked, that you're not one of them (like me).

    Also one other bonus for VEMS is that while the documentation is sparse to non-existent, the VEMS forum http://www.vems.co.uk/forum/ is very active, with lots of very experienced, smart and patient people including actual VEMS developers, willing to help you. One of those people has written an amazing install/config guide (some of this stuff is a bit out of date, esp the MegaTune use [VEMSTune is great] but overall it's all there):

    http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?pa...ob%2FUserGuide

    Quote Originally Posted by multiplex View Post
    Keep a close eye out for a plug and play vems unit for m50 motors! Someone has managed to source the connector.
    I'm sure the pnp is a very loosely used concept here. You can't just use the wiring straight up, you will at least have to make changes for the wideband and add grounds (if you run onboard map).
    Last edited by TheJuggernaut; 08-22-2010 at 12:32 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  2. #27
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    your thread is an inspiration. hopefully soon i can sort the funds to start my engine build and get the car back on the road after sitting for 4 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by onrailsm3 View Post
    In hugo terms

    Quantum physics- his weiner and da butt.
    Newtonian physics- the resistance of the sphincter and the force to overcome it.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilOne View Post
    your thread is an inspiration. hopefully soon i can sort the funds to start my engine build and get the car back on the road after sitting for 4 years.
    Thanks man, happy to hear it!

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJuggernaut View Post
    So the real key isn't anywhere near which EMS you choose (Megasquirt or McLaren), but rather how accessible is the support from people who have already done something at least similar to what you want to do. Sure, there are those out there who can figure all this poop out in a few hours on their own because they've done it a hundred times. But I'm guessing since you've asked, that you're not one of them (like me).
    I most definitely agree with you here...and you're absolutely correct, especially with something of this nature. It's always nice to have someone "hold your hand" the first time through, so to speak.

    I'd like to get my hands dirty on the engine management side of things before delving into boost, as I prefer to do things myself - that way I only have myself to blame. That and the fact that I don't feel as though being "locked" into a setup due to a tune fits my needs very well. With that said, did you change management to gain tuning & logging experience/capabilities, prior to upping the output? or do you have tuning experience and just wanted the ecu set up first?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJuggernaut View Post
    One of those people has written an amazing install/config guide (some of this stuff is a bit out of date, esp the MegaTune use [VEMSTune is great] but overall it's all there):
    I've read through that guide a little while back - very good stuff. Are you using VEMSTune?
    Last edited by Eloff19; 08-28-2010 at 06:06 PM.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJuggernaut View Post
    Thanks man, yeah I love it! It's significantly more responsive than the stock maf/413 setup. The throttle response takes me back to my days with the S38, where the throttle was an on/off switch, right there.

    I racked my brain over which EMS to choose for months last year. I admit to being a brand whore so I instinctively looked towards Motec. When I realized I would not benefit enough from what they offer to justify the price, I moved on to AEM and some others. But I with the corner of my eye, I was looking at VEMS, which offered things most of the others short of a pimped out Motex box did (eg onboard logging, AEM has fixed 512k, VEMS uses SD card - log your ass off). But it's built by what in my mind was a group of Hungarian kids working after school for the fun of it and is a no-name (disclaimer to VEMS guys: I know this is not true, I'm just saying this is the impression I had from the amateur website and the fact that I'd never really heard of it before).

    But the real kicker was the fact that I was pretty much on my own for most of these. For a time I was set on buying AEM but I tried to find base maps and couldn't find them anywhere. Most people who run various EMSs had boosted engines and many of them didn't even have them running full sequential.

    All this time I was drooling over the videos of the inspiration for this build, Jay's (multiplex). I decided to drop him a line to see what he uses and if he could hold my hand a bit to get going and through any trouble I run into. To my surprise, I got an essay back and he's been helping me ever since. His config got me way ahead of the game. I wired it differently (used the stock wiring, with some obvious changes like MAP sensor, and additions like the EGT and AFR) so my pinout was different, and being NA for now, some setup stuff I had to change BUT...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvP7a12YeGs

    Thanks to taking my time to figure things out and having smart people help me through it, it fired up on the very first try! I don't know a lot of people who can say that for a straight OEM managed swap.

    So the real key isn't anywhere near which EMS you choose (Megasquirt or McLaren), but rather how accessible is the support from people who have already done something at least similar to what you want to do. Sure, there are those out there who can figure all this poop out in a few hours on their own because they've done it a hundred times. But I'm guessing since you've asked, that you're not one of them (like me).

    Also one other bonus for VEMS is that while the documentation is sparse to non-existent, the VEMS forum http://www.vems.co.uk/forum/ is very active, with lots of very experienced, smart and patient people including actual VEMS developers, willing to help you. One of those people has written an amazing install/config guide (some of this stuff is a bit out of date, esp the MegaTune use [VEMSTune is great] but overall it's all there):

    http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?pa...ob%2FUserGuide



    I'm sure the pnp is a very loosely used concept here. You can't just use the wiring straight up, you will at least have to make changes for the wideband and add grounds (if you run onboard map).
    The pnp will use an auxiliary connector on the back for wideband and extra intput and output. Along with Serial connection, LCD connection and EGT.

    I´m the developer of the VEMS Motronic 88pin PnP ecu and it is 100% PnP. If you where to run a M50 based engine on Alpha-N then absolutely NOTHING would need to be done to run it. For MAP (Speed density) you connect the vacuum line and your done. To run with wideband you´d connect the appropriate wires to the aux connector and be done.

    There are no more grounds needed as the BMW wiring covers it just right for the VEMS unit, all stock sensors. It will feature a new enclosure so fulfill my initial plans of ZERO wires PNP solution. Indeed ready for space travel.

    It´s compatible with the Non vanos and vanos wiring at the moment, very soon it will be compatible with S50B32 and S50B30 euro motors (non vanos only at the moment) from a single ecu. It will not be able to support Siemens 323i and 328i E36 engines. Those will be supported later in another version.

    It will feature to name a few recent updates to VEMS

    Adjustable injection angle
    Sequential injection and ignition ( I designed it to have redundancy for failed cam sensor so it can run wasted and semi sequential)

    individual cyl fuel trim
    individual cyl ign trim

    And all the regular VEMS stuff

    Boost control
    Wideband control
    Flatshift, antilag, N2O control, launch control, boost by gear/speed (i made sure the vehicle speed input is used as well) , SD card internal logging and so on.
    With great challenges comes great engineering.
    Gunni - IG : @gstuning_ & @pnpecu
    Don´t PM ME, I won´t see it

  6. #31
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  7. #32
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    Thanks Gunni, glad to hear it! I guess for the grounds I was mainly concerned about the requirements in the instructions, since the OE harness doesn't come close to the gauge/length of the wiring for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eloff19 View Post
    I'd like to get my hands dirty on the engine management side of things before delving into boost, as I prefer to do things myself - that way I only have myself to blame. That and the fact that I don't feel as though being "locked" into a setup due to a tune fits my needs very well. With that said, did you change management to gain tuning & logging experience/capabilities, prior to upping the output? or do you have tuning experience and just wanted the ecu set up first?
    I took the same path as you. I wasn't keen on learning how to install, configure and tune a standalone at the same time as breaking in and learning a big dollar turbo build. I don't think you can go wrong with VEMS. It does everything you will want and I mean shit... a developer just posted above... when was the last time an AEM or whatever guy did that. The only AEM S52 map thread I found was on an AEM forum... with one post, from the OP, asking for help, that's it.

    For general stuff to get started, I'm always here to help if I can. Otherwise I'm sure multiplex, Gunni, or many others will get you through whatever problems you come across.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eloff19 View Post
    I've read through that guide a little while back - very good stuff. Are you using VEMSTune?
    Yessir. It's getting to be a bit bloated, the rate at which they add functionality is outpacing the rate at which they make it more efficient but as long as you've got a laptop with some balls, it's a rather nice piece of software, even has some context sensitive help most places. It has also gotten massively more stable. It used to crash so easily that some functions were as good as a close button. In fact, I don't remember the last time I've had a new version crash, if at all.
    Last edited by TheJuggernaut; 08-28-2010 at 07:52 PM.

  8. #33
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    I do not work on any of the firmware, hardware or software aspects of VEMS to be clear.

    I did however take a product and develop it further to satisfy a specific market segment.
    i.e 88pin motronic users.

    EDIT .

    My full respect goes to the original developers and the current development team at VEMS.
    Last edited by gstuning; 08-28-2010 at 08:06 PM.
    With great challenges comes great engineering.
    Gunni - IG : @gstuning_ & @pnpecu
    Don´t PM ME, I won´t see it

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gstuning View Post
    I do not work on any of the firmware, hardware or software aspects of VEMS to be clear.

    I did however take a product and develop it further to satisfy a specific market segment.
    i.e 88pin motronic users.

    EDIT .

    My full respect goes to the original developers and the current development team at VEMS.
    Cool. Well, I still see guys like you as developers. I've seen guys compile their own versions with bug fixes and have those end up in the official build. Sure it may not be a part of the formal development team but still contributing to the product.

  10. #35
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    The season is at an end. The car finally ran perfectly. So of course, that means it's time to take it all apart again.



    This time, almost everything is coming off. Drained the fluids, removed the rad and intake today. Should have the motor out by the weekend and call the builder to come pick it up.

    My MZ3 rear axle should be here by then, and I'll be off to pick up a set of front E36 M3 spindles.

    The gas tank is going to be junked. I've got a cool design in mind for a replacement. Going to get a new late model 62L tank, cut large openings in each saddle, put a high flow, low pressure pump with a screen pickup by the outer edge on the bottom of each saddle. Then make a tall, narrow surge tank inside the fuel tank, that these high flow pumps will feed, and out of this will be a line to an A1000 or similar outside. I'll also throw in some loose foam to minimize the sloshing reasonably. A fellow racer with a serious turbo Subaru, also said that they tried all kinds of fuel cells, and short of going with a 4k F1 certified ATL cell with baffled internal structures and stuff, they always had starvation until they made a design like this. They ran it down to like 1 gallon left in the tank and it never starved again.

    I wish putting stuff together was as easy as taking it apart. I don't even want to think how long it took me to get from this stage to completion, while I managed to get it ripped down to this point in 2 hrs.


  11. #36
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    Did you say it was a small track and you would get up to 160 and maybe more on the back straight haha? I must have heard wrong.

    AWESOME BUILD!

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo325ii View Post
    Did you say it was a small track and you would get up to 160 and maybe more on the back straight haha? I must have heard wrong.
    Yeah but 160 of the slow kind, KMs. I plan to have it geared for around 285-300 and I could totally see it being able to come close to that at tracks like the Glen or maybe MoSport.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo325ii View Post
    AWESOME BUILD!
    Thanks!

    Got pics of my trailing arms that have shipped out! I've never been this psyched over used car parts.





    Last edited by TheJuggernaut; 10-04-2010 at 06:30 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  13. #38
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    I'm thinking a e30 is in my future. I miss them too much!
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJuggernaut View Post

    Got pics of my trailing arms that have shipped out! I've never been this psyched over used car parts.


    Looking good D. I'll be paying close attention to the Mcoupe swap and taking notes.
    My manifolds powering 8sec and over 1000rwp cars
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  15. #40
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    Thanks guys!

    Otis, yeah I'm trying to find a set of rims I could live with right now. Knowing that I will eventually get rid of them makes it tough. On one hand I can't bring myself to buy some cheap crap but I also don't want to spend money on something decent... ideally I'd like to find DS2s for cheap 8.5 all around. Maybe I'll have to dig up 1-2 wheels at a time.

  16. #41
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    Looking good!

  17. #42
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    Reached that step where I inevitably start thinking "what am I doing, it's perfectly fine how it is... can I actually get this done?", which is the sign that it's a worthy project.


  18. #43
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    It's worth it. Have you been in a turbo'd BMW before?
    95 turbo 330ti. 01 maxpsi m3 e85. 01 m5. 01 m coupe. 03 AIM 996t e85. 06 x3 w/Meyers plow and winter daily. Prussian Motors is hiring!! prussianmotors.com/jobs
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubela View Post
    It's worth it. Have you been in a turbo'd BMW before?
    No, only modded Sooooopras

  20. #45
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    it's worth it X 137,985
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  21. #46
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    Cleaned up the motor for the builder who left with it last night. Test fit the turbo for some parting engine glamor shots, won't see it again for a while:



    Last edited by TheJuggernaut; 10-10-2010 at 02:41 PM.

  22. #47
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    That Otis special/35R combo looks like the Creature from the Black Lagoon.


    Nice pron sauce shoss

    BTW,
    Djborya reported today that he is breaking M Coupe axles,
    so they'll hold up for a while ... at least.

    Who is building your engine? IYDMMA
    Last edited by milKt; 10-10-2010 at 03:16 PM.

  23. #48
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    Haha thanks

    Yeah I'm not surprised. But I'm not a drag racer, this car doesn't see first gear outside of the paddock so I'm hoping my driveline will last longer than usual.

  24. #49
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    Looking great! Who is building your motor?

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo325ii View Post
    Looking great! Who is building your motor?
    Thanks! It's a local guy who specializes in big power Porker and Supra builds but is a closet BMW lover. Beyond his skill and impeccable reputation, I was mainly impressed by how much ownership he takes of his work. In my circle of friends, I prefer people who know how to be childish when called upon. But this dude is anal and almost a little curmudgeonly, I like that. He's been known to strip built motors apart because he wasn't completely comfortable with something. Doesn't take anything for granted about clearances, painstakingly checks everything even if it's brand new and/or OEM. Might not make for the most exciting beer buddy but I won't lose a second of sleep over him having my motor. Took me a long time to find a builder I could say that about.

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