BMWCCA Infineon Sept 25-26 HPDE and Club race have been cancelled!

[aus]

I just saw this on another site and it's listed as cancelled on the GG website. Any idea's why? I know Mark Dadgar is here sometimes.
My buddy and I were looking forward to the drive up and doing this course for the first time, especially since it was listed as one of the top tracks in the US in Car and Driver this month.

http://www.ggcbmwcca.org/?page=calendar&id=478

[jonb94118]

Not sure why BMWCCA cancelled, but NASA is going to take the weekend and host an HPDE event if still interested in coming up and driving the track.

http://nasaproracing.com/event/1133

[mdadgar]

I just saw this on another site and it's listed as cancelled on the GG website. Any idea's why? I know Mark Dadgar is here sometimes.

Infineon raised the track rental price by 50% to about $20K/day, before other expenses like corner workers ($235 per worker per day, 14 required), tow, fire etc.

The student price would have been $750 for the weekend. That's just way too high to get as many students as we'd need to break even (88), given that we lost $12K with a $600 entry price last November.

It's sucks, but it's what it is.

We'll try again in 2011.

BTW, I am always happy to share the event financials if people are curious. There are two ways to see 'em:

1) read the article I wrote for our chapter newsletter some time back (page 23)

2) send me a note at dec@ggcbmwcca.org and I will send you the budget spreadsheet for the cancelled Infineon school

Don't forget we'll be having a Drivers School + Club Race at Thunderhill on Nov 13/14. It'll be a lot cheaper.

- Mark

[aus]

Thanks Mark. I can't believe they're raising rates in this economy.

Anyone have any input on NASA HPDE? How many cars are out and how safe do they run it?

[MidnightOil]

NASA runs a very good show. Very similar in general structure to BMW CCA, but you don't get in car instruction if you're not a novice/group 1. They do, however, have "roving" instructors out on the track to show the line and keep an eye on things. It's been a while since I've run with Nor Cal, but I recall them being a bit more strict in a number of areas compared to SoCal.

Usually around 30 cars out on track. Passing zones are pretty strict for Group 1/2, a little less so in Group 3 and open in Group 4. Group 3 zones do open up through out the day as students progress and prove their competence.

Personally, I don't think there's any point in signing up in Group 2; no in car instruction and since you're grouped with Group 1, the speeds aren't really any faster. Group 3 is definitely faster, but tends to be a bit more hectic as there is a pretty big variance in talent level and speeds; you really need to be extremely aware of everything going on.

[Red Z3]

I don't know how the other clubs like NCRC, CFRA or NASA can do a weekday event under $200.00. NASA just did Infineon for 349.00 for the entire weekend! NCRC at Laguna Seca for a Monday 9/6 only cost $199.00 for 100 minutes. (Five 20 minute sessions)

[Jim Bassett]

I don't know how the other clubs like NCRC, CFRA or NASA can do a weekday event under $200.00.

Weekday track rentals are generally cheaper than weekends. And Sears is one of the more expensive tracks to rent (if not THE most) - you can't really compare it to THill and BW, for example.

NASA just did Infineon for 349.00 for the entire weekend!

And in comparison to CCA schools, they had WAY more than 100 paying customers, no doubt. CCA schools typically cap their registration to around that number - and as Mark pointed out, GGC tries to budget to break even at about 88 participants. No way can you compare that to an organization that signs up several hundred paying customers.

("How can they sell it so cheap? They make it up in volume." )

And quite possible, if they lost a bit of money on that particular event, that they made money on others to offset.

And, comparing a for-profit business to a non-profit organization isn't equitable.

NCRC at Laguna Seca for a Monday 9/6 only cost $199.00 for 100 minutes. (Five 20 minute sessions)

Which tells you next to nothing. What is their cost? How many paying customers? If they sharing the track with another organization, what are they charging their customers?

While the entry fee is what most of us, as participants, are concerned with, it tells you next to nothing about the overall cost of the event.

Anyone have any input on NASA HPDE? How many cars are out and how safe do they run it?

They can have anywhere from 30 to 60 cars in a group. I haven't run in Group 3 in years, so most of my recent experience in in Group 4. Earlier this year there were ~55 cars in the combined G4/TT group.

As for safety, it's safe enough, for the most part. Their HDPE program is different than the CCA schools, so it's hard to do a fair direct comparison. Usually I suggest, if you're about a B-level CCA student, chances are you'll be OK in Group 3. Main thing is realize that almost no one has an instructor, and there's varying degrees of skill. But at a B-ish level you should have a enough track experience and awareness to handle that kind of group. Passing zones are still defined and IIRC require a point-by, so similar to what you're familiar with (as opposed to open passing in G4).

Each group has a required download session after every track session, and they've gotten much better over the last 12 years in dealing with poor driving/discipline.

My 2 cents,
Jim

[aus]

Jim, thanks for the input. I'm a B level guy and usually know what's going on around me, but just a little nervous because you don't know how level headed the guy behind you is with no instructor in the car.

With the LA chapter, they seem to have trouble getting people go come out, especially in the "D" group. There were only 6-7 people on Saturday, and maybe double that on Sunday for the people who did the CCC so they could get out on the track Sunday.
Meanwhile, the GGC has TWO "D" groups at Laguna.
It's really hard to people to come out the first time. I can't convince any of my buddies to come out.

[Jim Bassett]

Jim, thanks for the input. I'm a B level guy and usually know what's going on around me, but just a little nervous because you don't know how level headed the guy behind you is with no instructor in the car.

As an instructor, I can tell you that that concern does go away just 'cause there's an instructor in the car.

[mdadgar]

Meanwhile, the GGC has TWO "D" groups at Laguna.

I've decided that it's because:

a) we're at Laguna, which you get to see on TV
b) it's a one-day school, so it's "cheap" where "cheap" means "low entry cost so if I don't like it I'm not out that much money"

What I expected was that over time this big clump of D students would move up the ranks like a hamster through a snake, but that didn't happen. I suspect it means that people try schools, get their fill, and don't come back.

Or, they wait a year for another "cheap" Laguna school.

- Mark

[Jim Bassett]

What I expected was that over time this big clump of D students would move up the ranks like a hamster through a snake,

Seeing as you & I (and others) have made it to A and beyond, I shudder to think what that makes us.

[Red Z3]

The 9/6 event with NCRC at Laguna Seca was not opened up to other clubs. They'll have 180 people including the race.

Didn't BMWCCA just do a Laguna Seca event during the middle of the week for $365?

What if they just instructed the novice group for a premium and the other three run groups ran at substantially reduced rates? Maybe then they could increase the size of the event.

[gobuffs]

Instructors are required for all groups in any BMW CCA event.

In Texas, the track rental for the weekend is bit more than 1/3 (yes just 1/3) of the total budget. The other stuff adds up fast.

[das borgen]

Thanks Mark. I can't believe they're raising rates in this economy.

Anyone have any input on NASA HPDE? How many cars are out and how safe do they run it?

speaking for Great Lakes NASA

NASA runs a very very well organized show. The people I've met have always been helpful and I'm very impressed by just how well shit is run..... I've worked with them twice already at BeaveRun and MidOH

you won't be disappoint

[Red Z3]

Instructors get track time right? Please tell me they're not paying them and that there were no costs incurred. Time to recruit some more instructors to fill up the cars and increase the class size.

[LittleBlueBMW]

I was planning on going but never saw the registration open up. Bummer.
I am returning to ncrc to see how their events are these days.

[Jim Bassett]

Instructors get track time right?

They can drive in A, B, C groups (assuming they don't have a student in that group). There is no "instructor" session (except at LS schools, due to the car-count limit in track).

Please tell me they're not paying them and that there were no costs incurred.

Instructors get the above mentioned track time, as well as lunches paid for and 50% of hotel room (single) or 100% (share with another instructor). This is GGC specific, as that's who I generally instruct with. Other chapters do other things, I'm sure.

Time to recruit some more instructors to fill up the cars and increase the class size.

I don't think it's as simple as that. But others that are more involved in the process can better address that.

I just work here.

They'll have 180 people including the race.

So there you go, you answered your own question.

It's really a fairly simple math problem, coupled with a bit of what amount of work/burden an organization can handle.

[Add: Also, as I mentioned earlier, unless you know what LS is charging NCRC for that Monday event, you canNOT compare their $199 entry fee to the potential $750 fee for the cancelled Sears school - as Mark mentioned, that was arrived at by breaking even at 88 students. NCRC is going to have twice that many.]

[The HACK]

The math is simple.

BMW CCA policy mandates that ALL participants must have an instructor, period. Even if you were to be signed off to go solo, an instructor must be available to you if you request it. What this means, take the 180 participant event at Laguna for example, is you will need at least 90 instructors for the event to give the instructors a break between sessions. Unless some of the participants at the event is there for club racing, there's very little flexibility around the national mandate.

Like Jim said, out here in the Pacific region CCA instructors don't get predefined run sessions unless it's Laguna (due to the 25 car limit). And while we don't get paid, Pacific region chapters do provide lunch and certain level of lodging. So with more participants, there is also the incurred cost of having to pay for more food and lodging for more instructors as well.

And because of CCA mandate for instructors, we can't just have instructors for the D group and instructors be "optional" for A, B, and C. So the requirement is almost always going to be at least 1 instructor for every 2 participant ratio. Having club racing the last few years have helped, but due to various reasons (like economy) club racing participants have waned and we're back at barely breaking even and sometimes losing money because we can't get enough racers.

If you would like to see the "inner workings" of how these events are held, try volunteer to work with your local chapter sometimes...You'd be surprised at how much work and money goes into making each one of these events work.

[mdadgar]

If you would like to see the "inner workings" of how these events are held, try volunteer to work with your local chapter sometimes...You'd be surprised at how much work and money goes into making each one of these events work.

That was the understatement of the week.

- Mark

[Red Z3]

Okay, put me to work. I volunteer. PM sent to Mark.

I'm already the Marketing Chief for the SFR SCCA TireRack Teen Survival. It's all about the P&L. We had to increase the class size, recruit more instructors and get some advertising since the venues were so expensive. Some areas in the country don't pay for the site. Candlestick was NOT that generous. Gotta scrutinize the expenses, increase the group size and get some advertising to supplement. Questions: If an event gets canceled, what are those people going to do with their time? Find another club to run with? Forget about track time altogether? What does the demand curve look like? Would $750.00 for a full weekend have been too much? Time for some polling. How many instructors are in the region right now? Has that number been decreasing? Was the attrition from acceptable reasons like age or relocation or did they just stop volunteering? What's the process for recruiting new blood? Recruit from the schools only. I've never been approached but I have also never ran with the club at any local tracks. It's been TEAM, NCRC and CFRA.

[The HACK]

That was the understatement of the week.

- Mark

I am subtle and understated like that. You know, discrete.

[mdadgar]

I'm already the Marketing Chief for the SFR SCCA TireRack Teen Survival. It's all about the P&L. We had to increase the class size,

Street Survival prohibits this.

Questions: If an event gets canceled, what are those people going to do with their time? Find another club to run with? Forget about track time altogether? What does the demand curve look like? Would $750.00 for a full weekend have been too much? Time for some polling. How many instructors are in the region right now? Has that number been decreasing? Was the attrition from acceptable reasons like age or relocation or did they just stop volunteering? What's the process for recruiting new blood? Recruit from the schools only. I've never been approached but I have also never ran with the club at any local tracks. It's been TEAM, NCRC and CFRA.

You're just going to have to assume we actually know what we're doing.

- Mark

[Red Z3]

We're 40 students through the next event.

I would never assume anything. I gotta see it.

[aus]

Infineon raised the track rental price by 50% to about $20K/day, before other expenses like corner workers ($235 per worker per day, 14 required), tow, fire etc.

The student price would have been $750 for the weekend. That's just way too high to get as many students as we'd need to break even (88), given that we lost $12K with a $600 entry price last November.

It's sucks, but it's what it is.

We'll try again in 2011.

BTW, I am always happy to share the event financials if people are curious. There are two ways to see 'em:

1) read the article I wrote for our chapter newsletter some time back (page 23)

2) send me a note at dec@ggcbmwcca.org and I will send you the budget spreadsheet for the cancelled Infineon school

Don't forget we'll be having a Drivers School + Club Race at Thunderhill on Nov 13/14. It'll be a lot cheaper.

- Mark

Mark, it looks like they went from $12,400/day to $20,000/day!!!
Do you guys usually do this track twice a year like in the article? I'm hoping they come to their senses, because my buddy an I would love to go there with the CCA.

[mdadgar]

Mark, it looks like they went from $12,400/day to $20,000/day!!!

Yes.

Do you guys usually do this track twice a year like in the article?

Yes. Except this year the track took away our traditional dates and gave us the expensive Sept date instead. I'm hoping to get our Nov date back next year.

That would give us Laguna in winter/spring and Infineon in fall.

I'm hoping they come to their senses, because my buddy an I would love to go there with the CCA.

Me, too!

- Mark