ATI Harmonic Crank Balancer - Want to safely rev your S52 to 8k?

[Serious]

Where are you pulling this 20+whp out of? You keep spouting off about 7400rpm being "safe" when that is only 200rpm higher then average conforti software. Given equal conditions an extra 200rpm's isn't going to net anything more then 2-3hp at most.

Ya sure I guess with a ton of headwork, cams that don't yet exist, and every other bolton imaginable you may surpass +20whp over a normal cam kit car... but at that point you're revving to 8000+rpm and no one really cares because they're staring at $5,000 on a custom cam kit + every bolt on and $6,000 on bottom end + headwork... and you could have either an s50b32 or s54 which are far superior platforms. Plus both those engines are superior in ways other then just pure power and redline RPM, they make more torque due to double vanos, have superior cooling systems both in oil and coolant, and tend to survive prolonged high RPM use compared to the s52.

In the end this thread is running around in circles. You seem convinced this part is superior and will make a difference compared to the stock damper, I don't understand why you have this approach but hey im not the one willing to take a risk with my motor.

[The Letter M]

Well almost everything on this topic has been said a few times, but we can sum it up by saying for those who believe this "mod" would be safe & beneficial, try it, but go get a baseline dyno first, then another one later so we can all see exactly what this piece of hardware can do for you…

Easy peasy.

[Serious]

Well almost everything on this topic has been said a few times, but we can sum it up by saying for those who believe this "mod" would be safe & beneficial, try it, but go get a baseline dyno first, then another one later so we can all see exactly what this piece of hardware can do for you…

Easy peasy.

you can't measure crank harmonics on a dynometer.

[The Letter M]

you can't measure crank harmonics on a dynometer.

No kidding. My point was that the OP is thoroughly convinced this is a good idea and is not accepting too many of the opinions against it, so he should just put it on & show us with the dyno results how much higher he can rev & how much power he found up there in the higher rpms…

Some folks just gotta learn their own way.

[BleedsBlue]

so you can say with 100% certainty that this will not work? can you also say that there have been no new developments in the E36 M3 world in the last 3 years that people thought were previously highly improbable, if not impossible? (protip: there have been a couple). are you also saying that stickley leaves zero potential on the table and there is no such thing as new parts/technology being available for a motor after stickley has built one of them?

if the answer to any of those are no, then i implore you to give this thread the respect it deserves.

I don't know if it will work, I know there have been 'developments' and that none of them have been revolutionary (not even close to 8000rpm S52), and I know Stickley isn't the end-all.

I'm not trying to disrespect, I just don't see the point. And this is coming from a guy that 100% agrees with your earlier statement to the effect of: "sometimes it matters more how you got there, than where you are." I'm a huge fan of doing things unconventionally, and researched for two years about building my S52 because I thought the same thing: why hadn't anyone done it?

I'm just a skeptic Jworms, and I have long ago written off the S52 for any serious performance gains. When mine blows, or I become bored with the power, I'll look into either a rebuild and sell+Euro/S54, FI, or a mild bolt-on type build MAYBE with some bigger valves, etc, little proven things.

Call me a pu$$y if you want, I just don't see the point with this engine

[Iceman00]

No one has emphatically said it won't work... but somehow you seem to have this idea stuck in your head that this damper is the next coming. When pretty basic mechanical engineering principals and common sense says something very different.

Just for kicks lets look at the risk reward ratio.

Risk- Popped motor, new longblock.
Reward- A couple extra hundred RPM on the top end, maybe an extra 5-8whp given average cam kit s52.

Personally I find it quite foolhardy to just assume a mod will work without any way to validate or measure changes.

Do what you will, I don't think anyone else cares either way... but my advice is don't look for help when you pop the motor... and more importantly don't come here in a month bragging about some new magic crank pulley has allowed you to rev to 7500rpm where the stock one would've failed because it will just contain conjecture and opinion... both of which are useless without hard data or testing to back them up.

Actually common sense and conventional wisdom say this WILL work. Maybe you should Google search these ATI crank Dampers, and know that they are used on 8000rpm OHV Nascar motors, and make parts for a wide array of cars/engines. I have seen nothing but positive reviews about these. Second coming? No...but could it be a big piece of the puzzle? I'd like to think so.

FYI, I have seen dyno proven gains with the Dampers too. Unlike underdrive pulleys which are usually smaller and lighter to 'increase' power, these dampers are sometimes bigger and heavier, but because of the absorption of the harmonic frequencies, they actually MAKE power.

[TC535i]

holy crap, after so many years someone has finally defeated the bmw engineers and discovered a way to balance the crankshaft that they couldn't!!!!




















...... no.

[Serious]

Actually common sense and conventional wisdom say this WILL work. Maybe you should Google search these ATI crank Dampers, and know that they are used on 8000rpm OHV Nascar motors, and make parts for a wide array of cars/engines. I have seen nothing but positive reviews about these. Second coming? No...but could it be a big piece of the puzzle? I'd like to think so.

FYI, I have seen dyno proven gains with the Dampers too. Unlike underdrive pulleys which are usually smaller and lighter to 'increase' power, these dampers are sometimes bigger and heavier, but because of the absorption of the harmonic frequencies, they actually MAKE power.

Yeah because racing v8's with lives measured in hours have so much in common with street car I6's with lifetimes that should be measured in hundreds of thousands of miles.

[jworms]

Where are you pulling this 20+whp out of? You keep spouting off about 7400rpm being "safe" when that is only 200rpm higher then average conforti software. Given equal conditions an extra 200rpm's isn't going to net anything more then 2-3hp at most.

Ya sure I guess with a ton of headwork, cams that don't yet exist, and every other bolton imaginable you may surpass +20whp over a normal cam kit car... but at that point you're revving to 8000+rpm and no one really cares because they're staring at $5,000 on a custom cam kit + every bolt on and $6,000 on bottom end + headwork... and you could have either an s50b32 or s54 which are far superior platforms. Plus both those engines are superior in ways other then just pure power and redline RPM, they make more torque due to double vanos, have superior cooling systems both in oil and coolant, and tend to survive prolonged high RPM use compared to the s52.

of course you need to have the car tuned for the extra RPMs. it alone won't produce much in the way of gains unless you consider the potential weight loss from the balancer. the point is that if this thing works and you can safely rev the car to 7400RPM, more tuning options may surface to take advantage of said RPM. the rest comes with the equation for making horsepower where ((torque) x RPM)/5252 = horsepower. if you have the same torque at different RPMs, the one applied at the higher RPM will produce more horsepower. it's very simple. i'm sure i don't have to explain that to you.

In the end this thread is running around in circles. You seem convinced this part is superior and will make a difference compared to the stock damper, I don't understand why you have this approach but hey im not the one willing to take a risk with my motor.

no, you know what the problem here is? a bunch of people who have ZERO interest in modifying an S52 are blindly (read: no proof) putting down something they have no place putting down. this closed-minded mentality is one of the major factors that consistently holds back advancing the platform. it's disturbing and this thread epitomizes that behavior. in fact, the majority of the nay-sayers in this thread don't even own a car with an S52. funny, ain't it? i definitely find it entertaining (almost predictable), especially considering the players.

it frustrates me that there are so many other cars out there that have tons more aftermarket options available. things the E36 community (hell, the whole BMW community) haven't even considered and refuse to consider because the few "elders" won't let it happen without telling you how dumb of an idea it is based on folklore/opinion.

at the end of the day, if you see no point in furthering the E36 M3 platform and think it's as good as it's going to get then you have absolutely no place in this thread. i'm sick of the people here saying "it's not worth it" or "it's a waste of money". quite frankly, that's your opinion and it means diddly to anyone who believes it IS worth it.

what harm is there in encouraging someone interested in trying something new? how does that possibly affect/harm you? what bad can come of that? more importantly, what GOOD can come of it?

No kidding. My point was that the OP is thoroughly convinced this is a good idea and is not accepting too many of the opinions against it, so he should just put it on & show us with the dyno results how much higher he can rev & how much power he found up there in the higher rpms…

Some folks just gotta learn their own way.

i'd love to, though it's not in the cards for me right now. however, i do have a friend who might try this out. in fact, this thread was born from a conversation i had with him about this very topic. sadly, it resulted in this mess which doesn't help the effort at all.

there's no room for new ideas when that behavior is looked down upon.

[Serious]

of course you need to have the car tuned for the extra RPMs. it alone won't produce much in the way of gains unless you consider the potential weight loss from the balancer. the point is that if this thing works and you can safely rev the car to 7400RPM, more tuning options may surface to take advantage of said RPM. the rest comes with the equation for making horsepower where ((torque) x RPM)/5252 = horsepower. if you have the same torque at different RPMs, the one applied at the higher RPM will produce more horsepower. it's very simple. i'm sure i don't have to explain that to you.

like I said 200rpm isn't going to net you anything spectacular, good news is it probably isn't out of the safe zone so there shouldn't be a huge risk.

no, you know what the problem here is? a bunch of people who have ZERO interest in modifying an S52 are blindly (read: no proof) putting down something they have no place putting down. this closed-minded mentality is one of the major factors when it comes to advancing the platform and it's disturbing. this thread epitomizes that behavior. in fact, the majority of the nay-sayers in this thread don't even own a car with an S52. funny, ain't it? i definitely find it entertaining (almost predictable), especially considering the players.

The funny thing is that all of us OWNED an e36 at one point, and have since moved on. The reason is this thread, eventually you come to point of diminishing returns where the car is at it's limit... that point has long passed for the e36.

Who is honestly going to dump $8,000 worth of engine mods into a $8,000 chassis? take those 16g's and go buy something faster and newer. Sadly as good as the e36 was it's day passed in about 2005 and has been down the drain since.

it frustrates me that there are so many other cars out there that have tons more aftermarket options available. things the E36 community (hell, the whole BMW community) haven't even considered and refuse to consider because the few "elders" won't let it happen without telling you how dumb of an idea it is based on folklore/opinion.

Has nothing to do with that, but if you ask for advice and opinions be ready to get ones you don't like, if that isn't what you want to hear then don't bother asking.

The reason people say it's stupid is because the return on the investment isn't there. No one cares about "developing" the e36 anymore because they sell for $6500 on craigslist and the vast majority of owners nowadays are more concerned with their "hella low lifestyle stance" then their HP numbers.

at the end of the day, if you see no point in furthering the E36 M3 platform and think it's as good as it's going to get then you have absolutely no place in this thread. i'm sick of the people here saying "it's not worth it" or "it's a waste of money". quite frankly, that's your opinion and it means diddly to anyone who believes it IS worth it.

what harm is there in encouraging someone interested in trying something new? how does that possibly affect/harm you? what bad can come of that? more importantly, what GOOD can come of it?

So go for it.

i'd love to, though it's not in the cards for me right now. however, i do have a friend who might try this out. in fact, this thread was born from a conversation i had with him about this very topic. sadly, it resulted in this mess which doesn't help the effort at all.

there's no room for new ideas when that behavior is looked down upon.

No one is looking down on you, they are looking out for you.

[jworms]

like I said 200rpm isn't going to net you anything spectacular, good news is it probably isn't out of the safe zone so there shouldn't be a huge risk.

i am speaking from the 7000RPM perspective and 400RPM could net quite a bit. i don't think anyone is seriously taking advantage of the 7200RPM red line provided by select tunes, but i'd be interested in seeing a dyno plot for somebody who is.

The funny thing is that all of us OWNED an e36 at one point, and have since moved on. The reason is this thread, eventually you come to point of diminishing returns where the car is at it's limit... that point has long passed for the e36.

sounds like you have absolutely no business in a thread that promotes advancement for the E36 M3. so why did you click? to ruffle feathers? to yell from your soapbox how cool you are because you took place in the "golden age" for the E36 and shout about how there will never be anything like that again? your opinion of hopelessness has absolutely no place in this thread. that silly drivel has been repeated far too much here and it's so sad.

if i said i wanted to fully build an N/A S52, who are you to stop me, or tell me i'm wrong? at first it might be ok to have a few people chime in and say there are "better" alternatives, but when it is made clear that those alternatives are not being considered then there is no need to keep harping at it. at that point, it's time to help by contributing ideas to the build, or shut up. just because you don't see the point of the project does not mean that others do not.

Who is honestly going to dump $8,000 worth of engine mods into a $8,000 chassis? take those 16g's and go buy something faster and newer. Sadly as good as the e36 was it's day passed in about 2005 and has been down the drain since.

where did you get the $8000 worth of mods?
don't spread misinformation. doing so will just further confuse anyone who might be interested in this project. as mentioned numerous times, this could cost as little as $575. i mean, people spend that much on a catback exhaust and there's surely big gains to be had with those...

Has nothing to do with that, but if you ask for advice and opinions be ready to get ones you don't like, if that isn't what you want to hear then don't bother asking.

The reason people say it's stupid is because the return on the investment isn't there. No one cares about "developing" the e36 anymore because they sell for $6500 on craigslist and the vast majority of owners nowadays are more concerned with their "hella low lifestyle stance" then their HP numbers.

So go for it.

No one is looking down on you, they are looking out for you.

i'm perfectly willing to listen to legitimate opinions about this. though, it starts getting old when people keep hammering on the idea that it's not worth it, or there's no return on the investment, or the chassis is too old to develop for it, etc. what good does that do for the community?

not only that, but nobody (read: NOBODY) has come up with factual evidence to show that this won't work. looking out for me? hah! at least come up with factual fodder to back your "looking out" stance.

please, if you are going to continue this, post encouraging ideas on the topic. we get it, the E36 platform is old, tired, cheap, etc., etc.. move on and contribute something positive to the thread.

[jvit27]

not only that, but nobody (read: NOBODY) has come up with factual evidence to show that this won't work. looking out for me? hah! at least come up with factual fodder to back your "looking out" stance.

And you haven't come up with any that shows it WILL.

We've shared decades of combined experience in this thread but you just dismiss it because it's not praising this revolutionary breakthrough..

Maybe you missed the comparison I posted a few years ago between the US and Euro ports:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=606139

Stickley stopped a few years ago because 300-310whp was all he could get, and that was with high compression, knife-edged crank, ported heads, etc. This damper will not help an S52 generate the same output as a Euro/S54, which is what you're expecting it to do. Schricks and Sunbelts stop making power around 7100 and thousands of valves have been bent by people misshifting the motor just a few rpm higher.

[jworms]

And you haven't come up with any that shows it WILL.

do you see how little sense that makes considering the thread topic? you have come into a thread that is asking for facts/help on a project and providing completely irrelevant information to *somehow* prove that it won't work. why would anyone do that if not for some wacked out agenda backing such behavior? i'm not the one saying it will definitely work, but it seems like you are using any (read: unrelated, non-factual) argument to prove it definitely won't, or that it's not worth it to proceed. how is that at all helpful?

at this point, what i'm asking for is the benefit of the doubt concerning this. your arguments are tired, repeated, and irrelevant; they do NOTHING to move this thread along. if that is all you have to offer then kindly stop posting. the next stop will be assistance from a mod. this was fun at first, but now it's just annoying.

We've shared decades of combined experience in this thread but you just dismiss it because it's not praising this revolutionary breakthrough..

Maybe you missed the comparison I posted a few years ago between the US and Euro ports:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=606139

Stickley stopped a few years ago because 300-310whp was all he could get, and that was with high compression, knife-edged crank, ported heads, etc. This damper will not help an S52 generate the same output as a Euro/S54, which is what you're expecting it to do. Schricks and Sunbelts stop making power around 7100 and thousands of valves have been bent by people misshifting the motor just a few rpm higher.

sorry man, more power than a stock euro or S54 motor has already been done on an S52. maybe you haven't heard, but there are a few S52 motors in the 280+rwhp range. also, how many valves have been bent revving to 7400RPM?

and not only is that not what this thread is about, but it has ZERO bearing on what is being [should be] discussed in this thread. stop trying to push this agenda of yours (that is surprisingly very similar to what Serious likes to push).

[Balthazarr]

OK, jworms, you or your friend do it and get back to us bc this thread is going nowhere, imho.
Interesting discussion, but that's about it.

[TC535i]

do you see how little sense that makes considering the thread topic? you have come into a thread that is asking for facts/help on a project and providing completely irrelevant information to *somehow* prove that it won't work.

because the "help" he's trying to provide, is helping you avoid the time/money/hassle on a project that isn't worth it. Help doesn't only come in numbers and weights.

why would anyone do that if not for some wacked out agenda backing such behavior?

Why would he do it? For the same reason anyone else wants to help somebody else. Maybe he's thought it thru already and is willing to save you the trouble?

[Serious]

Whatever dude dig your own grave personally I don't freaking care.

The funny thing is your so ADAMANT it will work yet you don't have the balls to try it on your own motor. IMO quit looking for someone else to be the guinea pig.

and not only is that not what this thread is about, but it has ZERO bearing on what is being [should be] discussed in this thread. stop trying to push this agenda of yours (that is surprisingly very similar to what Serious likes to push).

Are you kidding... an "AGENDA" LOL, yeah dog it's actually a conspiracy theory you've uncovered vitolo and myself are planning to combine our forces and collective completely STAGNATE the e36 "community" by offering a combination of sound engineering and throwing in a dash of simple common sense!!!!! What a devious act... good job nuetralizing the threat... cracking the code... and uncovering the truth. YOU"RE THE MAN!

[jworms]

OK, jworms, you or your friend do it and get back to us bc this thread is going nowhere, imho.
Interesting discussion, but that's about it.

for sure, man! if i get the chance to do it myself, or my friend does it, i will be sure to report the findings.

because the "help" he's trying to provide, is helping you avoid the time/money/hassle on a project that isn't worth it. Help doesn't only come in numbers and weights.



Why would he do it? For the same reason anyone else wants to help somebody else. Maybe he's thought it thru already and is willing to save you the trouble?

did people say the same thing when ICS shot for 1000rwhp? how about when people were (are still) shooting for 12s N/A?

it's like when people say they want suggestions on an N/A mod path and people suggest FI. at first, it's fine, but eventually you learn that FI isn't the goal with the car and you give up that stance. i'm just waiting for the rest to give up.

like i mentioned before, it's better to go into this thread assuming somebody will do this. for that person (could be me) it IS worthwhile to go through with it and it's incredbily counter-productive to say there are better ways or it's a waste of time/money.

Whatever dude dig your own grave personally I don't freaking care.

The funny thing is your so ADAMANT it will work yet you don't have the balls to try it on your own motor. Quit looking for someone else to be your guinea pig.

i'm adamant that it COULD work. something you cannot prove otherwise and seem to fear.

[Serious]

for sure, man! if i get the chance to do it myself, or my friend does it, i will be sure to report the findings.


did people say the same thing when ICS shot for 1000rwhp? how about when people were (are still) shooting for 12s N/A?

it's like when people say they want suggestions on an N/A mod path and people suggest FI. at first, it's fine, but eventually you learn that FI isn't the goal with the car and you give up that stance. i'm just waiting for the rest to give up.

like i mentioned before, it's better to go into this thread assuming somebody will do this. for that person (could be me) it IS worthwhile to go through with it and it's incredbily counter-productive to say there are better ways or it's a waste of time/money.


i'm adamant that it COULD work. something you cannot prove otherwise and seem to fear.

Goddamnit. I have no interest in proving it won't work, your the one for asked for advice & opinions and you've gotten nothing but on topic valid info... yet you still adamantly regect all of it out of blind faith in a product based on 1 account of which you know none of the variables.

If you want to charge off into the desert looking for milk and honey then feel free, but don't begrudge us for trying to help.

[jworms]

Goddamnit. I have no interest in proving it won't work, your the one for asked for advice & opinions and you've gotten nothing but on topic valid info... yet you still adamantly regect all of it out of blind faith in a product based on 1 account of which you know none of the variables.

If you want to charge off into the desert looking for milk and honey then feel free, but don't begrudge us for trying to help.

no, the "on topic valid info" has been comprised of:

• people saying it's not worth it with a 15 year old car
• people saying it's not worth the expense and/or exaggerating the expense
• people saying the S52 is a lost cause
• people saying that if stickley couldn't do it easily, nobody can
• people assuming the engine will blow up and that no precautions will be setup to mitigate such risk.
• people assuming that, even if it is found that revving much higher isn't possible with this, other potential benefits don't exist
• people reporting unrelated facts that neither prove, nor disprove anything about this (straw man)
• people blindly assuming this won't work

did i get everything? show me the other stuff and i'll add it to the list

[GotBHP?]

It's just the fact that there is no way to analyze harmonic vibrations or frequency's for the average joe, it's not like burning a chip and checking the timing and a/f ratio on the local dyno... there is no way to verify the effects without a huge investment either in testing (blown motors) or computer simulated crank harmonic analysis (which I and im guessing 99% of owners on here don't know how to do).

Someone get me an exact CAD model of the crank in question and I can do this. Not very difficult with the right software.

Actually common sense and conventional wisdom say this WILL work. Maybe you should Google search these ATI crank Dampers, and know that they are used on 8000rpm OHV Nascar motors, and make parts for a wide array of cars/engines. I have seen nothing but positive reviews about these. Second coming? No...but could it be a big piece of the puzzle? I'd like to think so.

Nascar motors are not overhead cam engines AFAIK. Add in the fact that its a V8, which is entirely different resonant frequency wise than an I6 and uhhhhh...

I believe ATI makes a damper pulley for NSX's, and it has shown small increases on dynos. In no way is it stated that it is now safe to rev to over 9k rpm.

[jworms]

Someone get me an exact CAD model of the crank in question and I can do this. Not very difficult with the right software.



Nascar motors are not overhead cam engines AFAIK. Add in the fact that its a V8, which is entirely different resonant frequency wise than an I6 and uhhhhh...

I believe ATI makes a damper pulley for NSX's, and it has shown small increases on dynos. In no way is it stated that it is now safe to rev to over 9k rpm.

YES!

Thank you for contributing something of value to this thread!

even if it turns out that this damper doesn't allow for higher revving, it could definitely provide other benefits.

as far as CAD models of the crank go, i know PEI330 did some serious R&D on his motor/crank. it almost wouldn't surprise me if he had a CAD drawing of it.

more edits:
here's a few links of the stuff he did.
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=711732 ( M54 Dissection )
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=730757 ( M54B30 Specs and Measurments )
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=445340 ( Naturally Aspirated M54B30 Engine Build )
pretty cool stuff!

[The Letter M]

Trying to keep on an even keel here, but frankly, some of us have considerable engine building, racing, engineering and general knowledge about the pros and cons of making changes to the design of an engine component.

I only encourage you to try this to satisfy your curiosity, but I truly believe that unless you are willing to build the engine to maximize power in the upper rpm range where the hp curve is well into it's drop off, then all you will get out of bolting this thing on is the possibility of harmonic dissonance that can pound on bearings and wear them prematurely.

Could I be wrong? Sure, but I know first hand what happens when you buzz an engine up to the limits of it's rpm range regularly with even a slightly mismatched balancer and that is one possible risk of this whole exercise.

That experience and many others has taught me many a lesson and I'm happy to share. Once you've got the first hand experience on this topic or even something close to it, I'm sure everyone would welcome this.

If you are absolutely right about this, then I'll be the first to congratulate you on your discovery.

[mspiegle]

Someone get me an exact CAD model of the crank in question and I can do this. Not very difficult with the right software.

I don't have a CAD model, but I have an S52 crank sitting on my workbench. I can probably come up with measurements that are at least .001" if not .0001" in some areas. I don't have a precision scale though, so I can't really provide any weights. Not sure if it helps at all, but that's what I got available.

[Iceman00]

Someone get me an exact CAD model of the crank in question and I can do this. Not very difficult with the right software.



Nascar motors are not overhead cam engines AFAIK. Add in the fact that its a V8, which is entirely different resonant frequency wise than an I6 and uhhhhh...

I believe ATI makes a damper pulley for NSX's, and it has shown small increases on dynos. In no way is it stated that it is now safe to rev to over 9k rpm.

Actually, I'm well aware, which is why I stated they are OHV (over head valve) which is common terminology for a pushrod/cam in block motor. Pushrod motors are not know for their high rpm capability dude in part to the valvetrain, and the larger 'stroker' cranks that are often used.

[GotBHP?]

Actually, I'm well aware, which is why I stated they are OHV (over head valve) which is common terminology for a pushrod/cam in block motor. Pushrod motors are not know for their high rpm capability dude in part to the valvetrain, and the larger 'stroker' cranks that are often used.

My mistake, I read it as OHC, not OHV originally.