Question/advice from BBK owners who track

[benaj]

Procrastination has gotten the best of me.

I knew that I had to rebuild the right front caliper for the better part of this track season. I kept ignoring it, putting it off. I even swore I wouldn't wait another weekend earlier this summer when I slightly cross-threaded a caliper pin bolt trying to force the caliper back into place at the track because I couldn't get the piston in all the way for a new set of extra thick track pads to get over the rotor.

But procrastination got the best of me. And now it is the end of the track season, I have a right front caliper that is trashed and yesterday I stripped that caliper pin bolt in the caliper carrier, the same one that was injured earlier this summer. The front caliper cannot be rebuilt.

The total price for a new right front caliper (discount sub $200), right front caliper carrier bracket ($185-ouch) plus a caliper pin bolt--> approx $400 total.

Here is my dilemma.

I have a friend who rolled a Porsche 993 earlier this summer at Nelson-- those of you from the midwest are all nodding your heads in full understanding. He is parting out the car right now, and I have crack at his brakes for about $1k.

He has standard 993 Porsche S4 calipers up front (4 pot, 44/36 pistons, same dimensions as the Big Reds, not sure if they are the same caliper though) with a 304x32 rotor (vs 322x32 for Big Red set up)

The rear set up is the Basic Porsche rear caliper (4 pot, 30/34 pistons vs Big Red S4 rear caliper at 36/30) with 299x24 rotors vs 322x28 for Big Red setup.

I don't *need* the extra stopping power-- this set up is obviously less than the Big Red set up, but hear me out. Switching to a full Porsche set up just might be worth it in my situation. I already need to sink some cash into my current brakes before next track season. So the additional outlay of $ for this set up may not be all that great in the grand scheme of things.

This summer I spent 16 days at the track. I dislike the way we have to change our pads vs the Porsche set up or my wife's Audi S4 set up. It would be a dream to just release a pin and slide in my track pads 7AM on Sat morning at the track, instead of wrestling with wrenching off the caliper. Obviously by my stripped bolt, I am putting a decent amount of wear and tear on the system changing my pads this often. And I don't know about you guys, but even with air ducting the brakes, I am still cooking rotors and the rubber seals on my calipers. Maybe changing to a brake system that was more race designed is worth the $.

So here is the plea for advice from those of you that have gone to BBKs on the track or those of you with extensive track wisdom.
(1) Do you think a conversion like this is worth it just for the maintenance and ease of a Porsche/Brembo set up?
(2) Any pitfalls of going to a full Porsche set up in terms of master cylinder, parking brake, etc compatibility?
(3) Anyone know of a vendor that sells brackets for Porsche-BMW conversions other than the Big Red set up (caliper bracket size would have to be different because the rotor differences)? Any guesses as to how much the rotor hat/caliper brackets will add to the conversion for front/rear?

Any other thoughts/advice? I am asking for the collective wisdom of the board to help we weigh the risk/benefits here.

Thanks,

ben
(BTW thanks for reading my version of War and Peace, at least I threw in a picture or two to keep you from falling asleep.)

[stjobs]

Porsche brakes can't hurt, IMO. However, for $1k you may look into a used Big Red setup - not sure how much those run.

[benaj]

Little difficult to find a used front BBK set up for that price that hasn't been abused--

My situation would include both front and rear brakes, well cared for-- I know (knew) the car well.


ben

[Cannon]

The only real downside that I can think of is the cost of getting a set of caliper brackets made. The brackets on my Mov'it kit are works of art, and there is no way I would have ever been able to make them on my own. You might talk to Sean at ECIS, or anyone else that sells Porsche-based BBK's - they may be able to steer you in the right direction for the caliper brackets.

As you mentioned, parking brake compatability may be an issue, but I honestly have no idea.

As far as the brakes themselves, I absolutely love them. Using both an infared pyro and a rotor pyrometer, my fronts run ~200 degrees cooler than my stock rears. They run so cool that I still run plain ole' stock Porshe pads (made by Textar, I think). The rears are Carbotech Panther Plus's, and the brake bias is great.

But by far the best benefit is that the brakes feel the same at the end of the day as they did on the first lap. There is zero change in pedal height or firmness - I mean zero. That is hugely confidence inspiring. I honestly don't think that I'm getting much in terms of lap times due to the braking power alone, but I made substantial improvements simply because I know that the brakes will be there at the end of the straight.

I'm not sure how different the 304mm rotor will be in terms of operating temperature, but if it's anything like my experience, you'd easily get away with stock Porsche street pads on all but the most punishing tracks - and even then you'd probably be okay (though my car is a few hundred lbs lighter than yours). That makes your track mornings even nicer. They do dust like stock M3 pads, though.

Chris

[benaj]

Thanks for the thoughts Cannon--

Unfortunately, the bracket issue might be the real catch here. I will have to do some poking around and see what I can find.

In terms of heat, I don't think it will be much of a concern. I will still retain my bimmerworld brake cooling duct set up with this conversion. The 993 Carrera is a similar spec car to ours (a little more power, a *touch* less weight), so this set up can easily handle the heat of my driving this porky sedan.

The calipers will come loaded with Pagid orange compound in all four corners, so initial brake pad selection is already made for me. But regardless, after going to full race compounds on the track with my current brakes, going back to a stock pad would not give me the bite characteristics and torque curve that I crave on the track. And dust is really a non-issue for me, the track wheels always get washed Monday morning before getting put away.

Thanks for the imput.

ben

[qwickm3]

If you can work out the bracket issue I say go for it. 1k for front and rear Porsche brakes is a bargain. And I feel you on the pad changing issue. I haven't gone to a big brake kit on my race car yet because I honestly feel like my stock brakes with HT 10 pads stop like crazy but changing pads is a real bitch. I'm really considering spending 2k on front brakes just for the ease of changing pads. Sick huh?

[benaj]

Originally posted by qwickm3
but changing pads is a real bitch. I'm really considering spending 2k on front brakes just for the ease of changing pads. Sick huh?

I seen folks spend a whole lot more money to avoid lesser hassles . . . .

ben

[Def]

It seems that since the front rotors are the same thickness and the calipers the same dimensions that you could use a Big Red caliper bracket and a set of Big Red rotors then be good to go. That is assuming the calipers mount up the same way(seems like they should).

The rears might be a little hairy, but I think some rear BBK setups use the Boxster S calipers and rotors, so maybe that will give you some hope.


Otherwise I say go for it. You'll kick yourself later if you drop all that money into replacing ONE corner of your factory setup and didn't fix the inherent problems while you had the chance.


BTW - a 993 Big Red front setup just sold on the FS forum here for $650 with only a few thousand miles on it.

[benaj]

Thanks for the input Def--

I have already explored the option of upgrading to 993TT rotors and calling it a day with standard caliper adaptors. The only problem is that now I am asking more of the porsche calipers than they where designed for. Especially with the rears, this Frankenstein approach might be more than I want to bargin for. Approaching the 90 degree turn at corner 7 of Mid Ohio doing 130mph downhill is not the time to ponder this.

My goal with this set up is rock solid braking with ease of maintenance, so deviating far from Porsche factory set up is not the direction I want to venture far. . . With that said, it appears as though the Big Red 993TT front caliper has similar specs (piston number/sizes) than the 993 carrera S4 caliper. The rear calipers differ in terms of specs. I haven't found the caliper specs on the Boxster S yet, don't know how they would fall vs the 993TT and the 993 carrera. This would help me decide if to go up to 993TT rotors.

Yes, I did see the 993TT front kit for $650. Amazing deal, assuming you don't have to rebuild both calipers, worry about stripped bleeder bolts, etc. that would worry me about such a good deal (sorry I am a pessimist by profession).

For those of us who track our cars more than just occasionally, we know that every component of the braking system is a disposible one. It is nice and reassuring to personally know the car/owner of the brake parts that you will be buying second hand. If your engine blows up b/c of a used part, you are stuck on the side of the road. On the other hand, if your brakes blow up b/c of a used part, you are also on the side of the road-- but potentially in a *very different* state of health . . . .

ben

[aceves]

Yes, I did see the 993TT front kit for $650. Amazing deal, assuming you don't have to rebuild both calipers, worry about stripped bleeder bolts, etc. that would worry me about such a good deal (sorry I am a pessimist by profession).

That was my kit that was for sale, and in all honesty the parts are basically new. I must say that I take some offense to your assumptions. If any one would have had an issue with them I would take the parts back and issue a refund.
Note my issue with the kit was the way it is designed (shims to align the calipers, etc.) It seems to me there is a better way to mount a brake system and as such I took it off my car. If the buyer ends up not liking the way the kit is designed either, well for that I will not refund the money as that is why I sold the kit in the first place and made it clear as such!
I hate to say it but you missed a good deal if shims are not an issue to you.
By the way I also found out that almost ALL BBK's based on the 993TT are fitted in this manner.

[m3bs]

I was contemplating a BBK, and decided to just install rebuilt calipers for now. You can get rebuilt front calipers for around $41 bucks plus $50 core, and the rears are $86. The carrier bracket does not come with, but I would think you could find one at a junkyard for a lot less than $185.

[benaj]

Originally posted by aceves
That was my kit that was for sale, and in all honesty the parts are basically new. I must say that I take some offense to your assumptions. If any one would have had an issue with them I would take the parts back and issue a refund.

After I submitted my last post, I had a feeling this would come up. I in no way was implying that you were selling a defective or abused kit, or that you were trying to dump this on someone here in this forum. I was just trying to say that it is much nicer to know the person/car that is donating the parts to your car, so that you are reassured that the parts you are getting are in the condition that you expect them to be in for the price.

There are some of us that are a bit mistrusting in buying parts that are offered "basically new" but for 1/3 their original value. That is a character flaw in those of us; it is not meant as a hit on you, Pedro. I am sure that the buyer of your kit is reassured in your genuine honesty and fair return policy.

Apology accepted?

[benaj]

Originally posted by m3bs
I was contemplating a BBK, and decided to just install rebuilt calipers for now. You can get rebuilt front calipers for around $41 bucks plus $50 core, and the rears are $86.

I looked into this, but I cannot get any of the cheepie internet vendors to guarantee that they will take my core (see photo first page). And the best deal I could find for a ///M front caliper was about $60 for the rebuild and $60 core = $120, too close to $160 best price for a new front caliper.

The carrier bracket does not come with, but I would think you could find one at a junkyard for a lot less than $185.

This is an option, but we don't have too many M3's sitting around Ohio in junkyards and the last mail order "BMW recycler" I dealt with sent me a very tired product. Any recommendations?

ben

[m3bs]

Even if they don't take your core, it's only another $50. I'm boxing mine up to return to rockauto.com. We shall see.

[benaj]

M3bs--

Did you receive your rockauto.com caliper yet? What was the quality of the rebuild? I assume it was a genuine ///M caliper, did it match your other caliper exactly?
I have seen some other remanufactured ///M calipers that were painted a dark grey/black color on the outside. So it didn't match the other OE calipers on the car . . . .

ben

[m3bs]

They are Ate calipers, but only the rears have the "M" insignia. They were not painted, but have some type of coating on them, probably a rust preventative of some sort. They did not have a new piston, which I was a bit disappointed with, since the face of the piston obviously had some corrosion on it prior to the rebuild. It looks like they cleaned up the OD of the piston, and hopefully the cylinder bore, and installed new seals, bleed screws and pin bushings. I had to yank out the bushings to reinstall my solid bushings from the old calipers.

Paint wouldn't last on my car anyway......

[alexd]

Ben,

Whats up man? Hope all is well.

My dad has a 1997 993 (calipers were black) and he went to the Euro GT2 brakes so he had all 4 of his old brakes in the garage. We tried like hell to find someone that made brackets to fit those wheels. Finally I went with the StopTech BBK, luckily we were able to find someone who wanted those brakes so we were able to sell them and put that $$ towards the StopTechs.

Unless something has changed in the last year, there is noone mass producing brackets for the black calipers. So to get someone to fabricate one will cost big $$.

Hope that helps.