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Thread: Cooling System Bleeding

  1. #26
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    I just showed my thread above (#24) to my BMW guru (who has fixed BMWs for 25 years from the bavarian, 2002 antique to the current E60). All the points I made above are correct per the BMW guru. Actually, I learned all these pointers from the BMW guru.

    FYI, "Air Lock" occurs in 2 separate fashions:
    a- when air is trapped behind the thermostat, inside the engine block ---> can be difficult to get rid off.
    b- when air is trapped in the tstat housing ---> very easy to get rid off.

    This "air lock" happens while filling coolant after work has been performed in the cooling system (because coolant is drained and air enters the system when one works in the cooling system). If air lock ever occurs, it occurs right here in the space that houses the thermostat in the engine block (the round hole in the pic below):



    There is something called Google. And one can always Google "BMW thermostat air lock" and see how many Google hits one gets.

    I don't criticize this thread at all, I actually support this thread for newbies to help them understand the cooling system bleeding.
    Actually this is a good thread.

    All I say is there is "more than one way to skin a cat", i.e., there is more than one way to bleed the cooling system in any car.

    PS: When you said
    "NNY528i...This in not correct, they are not at the same level
    in reference to:
    "cnn...thermostat housing bleed screw (#1) is located at the same level as the reservoir neck",
    Have you checked your car with a carpenter level, specifically the the 2 areas marked on my Yellow Arrow that says "same level"?
    At least I verified it with a carpenter level before I wrote that sentence. LMAO!

    Quote Originally Posted by NNY528I View Post
    ...You still are not understanding the design of this cooling system.
    LMAO...leave this part for the rest of the world to judge. On the other hand, you can keep trying to prove that anything I wrote is wrong.
    Last edited by cnn; 04-21-2010 at 02:50 PM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnn View Post
    Have you checked your car with a carpenter level, specifically the the 2 areas marked on my Yellow Arrow that says "same level"?
    At least I verified it with a carpenter level before I wrote that sentence. LMAO!

    LMAO...leave this part for the rest of the world to judge. On the other hand, you can keep trying to prove that anything I wrote is wrong.
    So you measured it with a level you say, and they were exactly the same, would you like to verify that before I post the photos i just took or do you want to stand on your statement above?

    Quote Originally Posted by cnn View Post
    FYI, "Air Lock" occurs in 2 separate fashions:
    a- when air is trapped behind the thermostat, inside the engine block ---> can be difficult to get rid off.
    b- when air is trapped in the tstat housing ---> very easy to get rid off.

    This "air lock" happens while filling coolant after work has been performed in the cooling system (because coolant is drained and air enters the system when one works in the cooling system). If air lock ever occurs, it occurs right here in the space that houses the thermostat in the engine block (the round hole in the pic below):



    There is something called Google. And one can always Google "BMW thermostat air lock" and see how many Google hits one gets.
    look at your picture above. do you see the hole to the left where the thermostat goes? alright what you are not understanding is that that small hole in the middle of that hole opens into the passage that ends to the right of your finger tips or the upper radiator hose port. they are connected to each other and even in your photo which is off angle you can see that the upper radiator port is higher than the thermostat opening. Do you see this?

    Now look in that thermostat port and see the area on the right lower quadrant where there is a slot in the floor of the opening? that is the intake for the water pump. so can you please show me on that picture, how air can become trapped and airlock the thermostat. i can not see how that can occur so please draw for me the area that can become filled with air that prevents the thermostat from functioning properly and that does not allow the air to move out into the upper radiator hose.

    what you seem to be implying in all your points is that they are not connected as i say. so here is a simple questions. yes or no, can i put a piece of rope in the upper radiator hose port and pull it out through the thermostat cavity without entering the main part of the block(ie in and right back out)?


    If I can then the air will travel to the higher level.



    Lastly while there are more than afew BMWs that may be prone to air lock as you understand it, the e39 is not one of them. Please provide some specific information, diagrams measurements photographs whatever to support your point that somehow air can become trapped around the thermostat in this engine.
    Last edited by NNY528I; 04-21-2010 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  3. #28
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    What is the reasoning behind turning the heat up and fan to low with the engine off?
    Last edited by Highgear; 04-22-2010 at 05:38 PM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highgear View Post
    What is the reasoning behind turning the heat up and fan to low with the engine off?
    Many of these cars have a circulating pump that feeds the heater core so the steps you are questioning ensure that heat is called for by the HVAC system which turns on this pump and flushes any air out of the heater core.
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by NNY528I View Post
    Many of these cars have a circulating pump that feeds the heater core so the steps you are questioning ensure that heat is called for by the HVAC system which turns on this pump and flushes any air out of the heater core.
    Thanks, now I understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by NNY528I View Post
    Many of these cars have a circulating pump that feeds the heater core so the steps you are questioning ensure that heat is called for by the HVAC system which turns on this pump and flushes any air out of the heater core.
    Is it important to flush the system with straight water and let it run for ten minutes before adding new coolant. Also, I would think that I should do the same bleeding proses for the water flush, or is that going overboard.
    Last edited by Highgear; 04-22-2010 at 08:23 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highgear View Post
    Thanks, now I understand.



    Is it important to flush the system with straight water and let it run for ten minutes before adding new coolant. Also, I would think that I should do the same bleeding proses for the water flush, or is that going overboard.

    I personally dont see any benefit to running with water unless you had some sort of contamination in the system that needed to be removed i would simply drain and refill with fresh mixed coolant.
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  7. #32
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by NNY528I View Post
    I personally dont see any benefit to running with water unless you had some sort of contamination in the system that needed to be removed i would simply drain and refill with fresh mixed coolant.
    That makes sense. I decided to change out the coolant due to a coolant leak at the bleeder screw on the upper hose. I must have bumped it while changing the cam position sensor, because two days after changing it I had steem comming out of it. Once I washed away the coolant mess, the screw top was gone. I have a new upper hose to install along with fresh coolant. The car is a 99 with 95K on her. For all I know, the hose is original. NNY5281, thanks for taking the time to explain the proper method.

  8. #33
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    My three penneth worth on bleeding cars with M52TU and M54 engines.

    The M52TU engine is more like the M54 than the single vanos M52. Its not just a twin vanos head on the M52 block. The cooling system is quite different, the block is different, the engine management system is different etc. In many ways it is like a prototype M54.

    In NNY528i's step by step procedure there is a bit missing between steps 5&6.
    This is the "cold bleed" procedure which is part of the BMW TIS procedure. (not sure what is in the Bently manual as I dont have one for my E39, E36 yes, E39 no) The missing step is all about bleeding the heater cores which is the main reason why bleeding the system appears to be so difficult.

    Basically what this does is use the waterpump to force all coolant flow through the heater cores and hoses BEFORE the thermostat has started to open. This forces any air in the cores and hoses out to the expansion tank.

    Bleeding the engine does NOT bleed the heater hence the extra steps. If this is not done the trapped air can move to the engine at a most inopportune time, get trapped in the cylinder head, (the head is higher than the radiator on 6 cylinder cars), and cause overheating or worse.

    So the process is between steps 5&6 is this:
    This must be done with the engine COLD and the previous steps of max temp setting and low fan speed.
    Start engine and within 30 seconds rev engine 3 or 4 times to 3000 to 4000 RPM.

    A few more things.

    M52TU/M54 engines run at up to approx 110 degC on light load and low engine speeds. This is controlled by the engine ECU which monitors engine speed and load, water inlet temp to engine, water outlet temp to radiator and adjusts the electronic thermostat opening as required. Its all to do with emissions.

    On E39 cars the heater is the highest point in the system but the heater hoses are routed down below the cylinder head beside the engine. (its a real can of worms) This allows air to become trapped in the heater and requires the cold bleed process to remove trapped air.
    Bleeding the engine with the 2 bleed screws (only 1 for V8s) does NOT bleed the heater so the additional step is necessary.
    The bleed screw on the expansion tank initially bleeds air from the radiator hot tank.
    Once the engine is running there is a continuous bleed from the radiator hot tank to the expansion tank. This is the small hose that runs from the radiator to the expansion tank under the shroud.
    There is no direct connection between the expansion tank and the radiator, apart from the small bleed hose. Its connected via the heater hose system.

    Don't confuse the REST/MAX heater function with the Latent Heat system. The Latent Heat system has an insulated storage tank that stays warm for days. The REST/MAX function only works until engine water temp gets low. Don't know if the Latent Heat system has its own separate pump or uses the electric auxiallary pump.

    The electric auxilliary water pump is on the heater valve assembly on V8s and at the bottom of the radiator, in front of the power steering pump on M52TU/M54 engines. Not all cars have an auxialliary water pump.

    If your heater output drops off the faster you go there is a good chance you still have air in the system. As speed increases the thermostat opens further and less hot water is sent to the heater. If there is air in the cores then there isn't enough volume of hot water in the cores to maintain the set temperature. The auxilliary water pump can make up some extra flow but not enough to maintain the temperature.

    The cooling system can and does operate at up to 200Kpa (approx 30 psi) and 110 degC. Under no circumstances open the radiator cap when the engine is hot. Apart from the risk of scalding from 110+ deg C coolant you will almost certainly get air into the system. How do I know???. You then have to bleed the system again.

    Hope this helps

    RonR
    99 528iT M52TU
    Downunder

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie528iT View Post
    (the head is higher than the radiator on 6 cylinder cars),
    I agree with just about everything you have said except this part here. The overall cylinder head is in fact taller than the radiator however if you look at the cooling system jacket/water passages you will find that the high point of those passages is in fact the upper radiator port on the thermostat cover. The passages only rise as high as the area just above the cylinder domes which is in the lower 1/4 of the cyclinder head most of which is taken up buy the valve train and the intake/exhaust ports.
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  10. #35
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    NNY528i
    You are right. I was trying to make the point that the highest point of the engine is higher than the radiator. Thats why the top hose has a bleed valve and has a bend as it drops down to connect to the radiator. This ensures that any air trapped in the system finds its way to the cylinder head and isn't bled out by the continous radiator bleed.

    I'm not trying to upset anybody just provide useful information. There is so much misunderstanding about these cars and how they work.

    Regards
    RonR
    99 528iT M52TU
    Downunder

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie528iT View Post


    So the process is between steps 5&6 is this:
    This must be done with the engine COLD and the previous steps of max temp setting and low fan speed.
    Start engine and within 30 seconds rev engine 3 or 4 times to 3000 to 4000 RPM.
    First NNY528I, you rule! You made an often discussed and often overly complicated procedure, simply child's play. The video really helps too. I'm tackling a replacement of belts, waterpump, and expansion tank tomorrow (yes, other cooling related item already replaced). I expect to lose a ton of coolant, but will be using your procedure verbatim to get the system back to proper coolant levels and bled.

    So to clarify the missing step above should be done once the cold engine bleeding DIY is complete. Then, start the car, rev it a few times, then drive it around. Check it all again when engine is cool, then all done?

    Correct?
    2003 BMW M3 - Alpine White - 6 speed
    2002 BMW 330i - Gray - 5 speed

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by aa240sx View Post
    First NNY528I, you rule! You made an often discussed and often overly complicated procedure, simply child's play. The video really helps too. I'm tackling a replacement of belts, waterpump, and expansion tank tomorrow (yes, other cooling related item already replaced). I expect to lose a ton of coolant, but will be using your procedure verbatim to get the system back to proper coolant levels and bled.

    So to clarify the missing step above should be done once the cold engine bleeding DIY is complete. Then, start the car, rev it a few times, then drive it around. Check it all again when engine is cool, then all done?

    Correct?
    No missing step, when done bleeding per the instructions, simply take the car for a drive long enough to bring the car to normal operating temperature(not cross country, short 5 min drive will do) then once car is cooled completely check the level in the tank and level up as needed.
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by NNY528I View Post
    No missing step, when done bleeding per the instructions, simply take the car for a drive long enough to bring the car to normal operating temperature(not cross country, short 5 min drive will do) then once car is cooled completely check the level in the tank and level up as needed.
    Perfect, followed your steps to a T for bleeding and everything went as expected. Timewise, the first bleed screw on the thermostat took about 5 minutes to bleed initially. The bleed screw on the expansion tank took about three minutes. Car was on jack stands to help move things along. As of now, car has taken about 1.5 gallons which is what I was expecting. Over the next couple weeks, I'll closely monitor the temp and level of the coolant and top off/bleed as necessary. I doubt that I will need to add too much more coolant at this point.

    Here's my experience on replacing an expansion tank and water pump on an M54, 2003 525I manual.

    1 - The expansion tank removal is not easy. In fact, for me, it was very cumbersome. The most challenging part was removing the lower hoses as they were really stuck on. Then the upper hose was a pain because it was sitting under the fan shroud, so removing it from the old expansion tank required deftly working your way around the shroud. Installing the expansion was also very difficult for me. Again, most of the difficulty is getting the lower hoses on.

    2 - Waterpump - This was relatively easy. Remove the cover held on by 4 bolts, then remove the 4 nuts that hold the WP. Light tap with a rubber mallet and watch out! On the third hit, BOOM! Coolant everywhere! Next time, I may just try to force it off by hand if at all possible. Installation reverse of removal. I did put a little lithium grease on the oring to ease her in better.

    This experience has definitely built my confidence up in DIY. In fact, as I was removing the lower engine cover to begin the work, I noticed the beginnings of what appear to be a power steering fluid leak as evidenced by a small amount of the ATF sitting on the inside cover. This will definitely be my next task.

    Thanks for the write-up.
    2003 BMW M3 - Alpine White - 6 speed
    2002 BMW 330i - Gray - 5 speed

  14. #39
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    Nope just drive the car normally, check the coolant level regularly over next few days and add coolant to the reservoir only if the level falls below the cold full level. soon the level should stabilize and you should be set. If the level continues to fall over time then you need to start poking around for a leak which can take a few days or even weeks to become really obvious.
    Last edited by shogun; 04-07-2019 at 10:23 AM.
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  15. #40
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    Turkey baster

    Not sure if this was a good idea or not, but when I was bleeding the system on my 03 540, I found that a standard cheapo turkey baster fit exactly in the bleed hole next to the radiator cap. If I took the bulb off, fit the baster tube in the bleeder hole, I would fill it with about 2 inches or so of coolant. Then I would squeeze the upper radiator hose producing bubbles up through the baster tube and when I let go it would suck coolant back in to replace the air. Kind of like bleeding the brakes with a piece of tubing submerged in brake fluid so as not to let air back in the system. I had to refill the 2 inches or so of coolant a few times but this seems to have bled out all the air (after doing the initial cold fill with the heater turned on) This seems to have done the trick....

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by m33m View Post
    Not sure if this was a good idea or not, but when I was bleeding the system on my 03 540, I found that a standard cheapo turkey baster fit exactly in the bleed hole next to the radiator cap. If I took the bulb off, fit the baster tube in the bleeder hole, I would fill it with about 2 inches or so of coolant. Then I would squeeze the upper radiator hose producing bubbles up through the baster tube and when I let go it would suck coolant back in to replace the air. Kind of like bleeding the brakes with a piece of tubing submerged in brake fluid so as not to let air back in the system. I had to refill the 2 inches or so of coolant a few times but this seems to have bled out all the air (after doing the initial cold fill with the heater turned on) This seems to have done the trick....
    interesting idea but not really needed as that hole is the high point in the system, all the air will eventually find its way to that spot, you don't really need to worry about any air going back into the system as it will just come right back out as coolant works its way in to take up the space.

    The only issue I see is that this may not allow you to push all the air out as the level of that opening is now higher than the rim of the expansion tank thus you can not use the static level in the tank to force flow out through that upper bleeder hole.

    However a turkey baster IS an outstanding tool to have, it is very useful for setting the final level if it is too high as well as for changing out brake fluid etc.

    Thanks for the input.
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  17. #42
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    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  18. #43
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    Thanks for your procedure!

    2003 E39 530i, about 81K miles.

    I just did a cooling system overhaul, and conventional bleeder valve method did not work.

    After using NNY528I's method, I got tons of bubbles out from the coolant reservoir bottle bleeder valve and the car seems to hold around 96C better.

    I did another cold bleed this morning and again there are bubbles from the reservoir bleeder valve, but only half as much as yesterday.

    I'll do it again today, should I expect that as long as there are bubbles, I need to keep doing this procedure?

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by NNY528I View Post
    Nope just drive the car normally, check the coolant level regularly over next few days and add coolant to the reservoir only if the level falls below the cold full level. soon the level should stabilize and you should be set. If the level continues to fall over time then you need to start poking around for a leak which can take a few days or even weeks to become really obvious.
    Thanks!

    I've done it three times, and there were always bubbles coming out from the radiator overflow bleeder valve. So I don't need to do cold bleed anymore?

    The other question is, now I have more coolant in the system than the system requires. The float sticks all the way to the top, should I leave it like that and observe the level over the next few days? If the level keeps high, should I use a syringe to suck some out?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fei View Post
    Thanks!

    I've done it three times, and there were always bubbles coming out from the radiator overflow bleeder valve. So I don't need to do cold bleed anymore?

    The other question is, now I have more coolant in the system than the system requires. The float sticks all the way to the top, should I leave it like that and observe the level over the next few days? If the level keeps high, should I use a syringe to suck some out?
    Once the level is consisitent and stable then you can remove excess to a little above the cold level.
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  21. #46
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    This message is for everyone looking for the proper way to bleed their E36 Coolant System. I own a 1996 328is and I watched the video posted above and even e-mailed him and ask a couple of questions to be sure I was not missing a step. I then filled the expansion tank to the top until I saw bubbles start and stop coming out the bleed hole. I then started the car and set the temp controls to full hot and also pushed the circulation button (the button below the A/C button) to make sure heat was coming through the vents. As the needle began to rise, I begin to feel heat. When the temp needle was almost to the mid/half way mark, I replaced the radiator cap and bleed screw and took the car for a test drive. The heat was unbearable and most important is that the onboard computer stop giving the Low Coolant message and the Check Engine went out without me having to reset it. I let the car sit for a few hours and rechecked the coolant level and it had dropped but not to the cold/kelt line and that could be because the engine was still warm to the touch. I will check it again when the engine is completely cold. Just wanted to let you guy know that this proceedure in the video seems to be working.
    Last edited by 5liter; 05-31-2010 at 07:17 PM. Reason: Corrections
    88 5.0 Coupe, 90 5.0 LX, 96 328is

  22. #47
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    Quick question for you guys...

    Coolant squirts up ~10" out of the tstat bleeder screw every 15sec or so.
    Is this normal?
    Could it have something to do with the fact that my ambient air temp sensor is out?

    That being said, how should I proceed?

    Thanks

  23. #48
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    while you are bleeding or with the engine running and the screw open(a no no per my instructions)
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  24. #49
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    I'm following the procedures mentioned in this article.

    Engine off, key to "on" position. HVAC @ 90*, 1bar, main vent only.
    Exp tank cap & both bleed screws removed

    The coolant level drops to about half way through the t-stat tube for ~15 seconds, then shoots up in the air and repeats.

    FYI: I just bought this car, trying to diagnose overheating issues.
    First thing that I noticed was the expansion tank bleeder screw was broken in half and leaking.
    Bought a new screw, went to fill system and bleed (that's where I stand now).
    Last edited by Euclid; 06-09-2010 at 07:21 PM.

  25. #50
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    what year, model etc is your car?
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



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