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Thread: M3 3.0 .. Internal tuning questions..

  1. #1
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    M3 3.0 .. Internal tuning questions..

    Hi there. Im new the the M3 world, i have vast knowlage on displacement ect. but what the m3 can take and what its made from is not on my knowlage list.

    Basicly. Im not into FI, i'd rather keep the normal asperiation of the straight 6 3.0l and just work on its displacement.

    Im just here to ask a few simple questions.

    1 which would you recommend in forged pistson compression 11;5.1 or 12;5.1 which can cope better on a daily runner.
    2a would a 3.2 euro m3 crank effect the lift of a 11;5 or 12;5 piston to cause it to impact off the valves/head
    2b or would a 3.0l crank be suitable enough to cope with compression ratios 11;5 or 12;5

    any other tuning information would be great.

    Cheers in advance.

  2. #2
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    What are your goals? Max power and max life don't exactly go hand-in-hand.

    I would be extremely wary of raising the compression any more on a daily-driven Euro S50. It is already at about 11:1, if memory serves, and the only reason that works is because of the knock sensors. There isn't much point in going higher if the knock sensors kick in all the time and pull the timing, killing your power.

    There are a few manufacturers that make stroker/bore kits for the engine, including a 3.4L crank.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by xatlas0 View Post
    What are your goals? Max power and max life don't exactly go hand-in-hand.

    I would be extremely wary of raising the compression any more on a daily-driven Euro S50. It is already at about 11:1, if memory serves, and the only reason that works is because of the knock sensors. There isn't much point in going higher if the knock sensors kick in all the time and pull the timing, killing your power.

    There are a few manufacturers that make stroker/bore kits for the engine, including a 3.4L crank.



    Care to point me in some directions for that 3.4L? That will require some chip tuning too?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmbjesus3333 View Post
    That will require some chip tuning too?
    Yes.
    -Roland

    COLORADO BMW FACEBOOK GROUP: https://www.facebook.com/groups/650360354994341/

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by REHaas View Post
    Yes.
    Who sell the 3.4L kit?

  6. #6
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    RE: 3.0 internals

    If you WANT to rebuild the bottom end of the 3.0 engine, you could put in a 3.2 crank, its harmonic balancer, rods and pistons, and you'd be fine putting your cylinder head back on... that is my understanding, but you'd have to bore out to the bore of the 3.2 pistons.

    The most desireable parts of your engine now, compared to a 3.2 is the following:

    Largest con rod bearings in any BMW to date. 50mm (AFAIK)
    Trick insulating parts between cylinder head and TB assembly
    Looks cohesively designed (heheheh my opinion)
    Motronic tuning with chips which in most countries allows more accessible tuning options.
    More reliable Svanos
    Forged rods (later 3.2's were sintered)
    You can say you have half a McLaren F1 engine, and its somewhat true.

    On the con side:
    Heavier valvetrain, less safe above 7800 in stock form
    Smaller valves on intake
    200cc
    Single pickup Oilpan
    Headers heavier, thicker, possibly slightly less flow.
    Lower compression

    If I were to build a streetable S50B30 varient from scratch, and wanted to maximize things, I'd do the following:

    Custom 11.5 pistons
    Bottom half of 3.2 cylinder head for valve benefits
    Custom cams, split... perhaps 284 intake, and 27X
    KK headers
    Dual pickup 3.2 oilpan set up
    Retain rods
    CF intake, with AN chip set custom burned or standalone

    I'd never build this, I like to be as close to stock... so my dream Z1 engine will be: 3.2 stock bottom end and valve job to bottom half 3.2 cylinderhead but topped off with the 3.0 single vanos cam set up, and running DTA so I can dyno tune it easily.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by M3 Euro LTW; 03-25-2010 at 05:40 PM. Reason: error
    Alex Lipowich
    xyobgyn on AOL

    For Sale: E36 325 MTechnic with S54 on stock DME TBA

    Trying to make the world a better place with 5 or now 7 extra throttle bodies at a time.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    I recently rebuilt my S50B30 & did the following:

    -S50b32 head (polished, ported, bored intake ports) & tbs (matched bored to head)
    -New stock S50B30 pistons (machined intake valve pockets for added clearance) 11.1 CR
    -Schrick 284s
    -CF Airbox with 4" K&N
    -H&H Alpha N chips
    -Full SS exhaust (headers, X pipe, street exhaust)
    -S54 crank pulley
    -New rod bearings with full ARP hardware
    -3.2 oil pan & S54 dual p/u oil pump

    This build came as result from 24 bent intake valves during 2 failed cam installs. I hope it serves those who are thinking on doing schrick cams on an euro engine. Even though schrick only calls for checking valve to piston clearance on their 296 cams. One should always check just to avoid the pain that I had to go through.

    I would recommend running the 3.2 tbs if you're swaping the head with a 3.2. Even though Alex mentioned the trick ceramic spacers on the 3.0 tbs, the ports are smaller & not matched to the 3.2 head so flow will suffer a bit. Everybody knows that the 3.2 head has bigger intake valves & a lighter valvetrain, but the valvetrain is weaker than what's in the 3.0 head! That's why schrick only calls to upgrade the 3.2 head valvetrain when installing 296 or bigger cams.

    In addition, those of you who think that off the shelf alpha n chips will work fine with schrick cams are mistaken. My car runs horribly at idle to around 3k, but after that it's a monster. I've put around 3k miles since the rebuild, but the lower rpms haven't improved much. I'm currently in the process of having Mark D'Sylva custom tune my car so I'll post before & after dynos soon to see the difference.
    Last edited by ajfox; 03-29-2010 at 01:04 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajfox
    I hope it serves those who are thinking on doing schrick cams on an euro engine. Even though schrick only calls for checking valve to piston clearance on their 296 cams.
    I've no experience putting in cams from Shrick beyond 284. It was my general understanding that this was the widest duration cam they recommended before locking cams became a requirement, along with upgrading springs, tappets and retainers because it was assumed you'd be spinning beyond stock redline, and using much higher compression pistons so that real world compression was maintained. You can't move the cam much when its that wide with vanos or you'll start having overlap and bending valves... at least that is my understanding.

    I would recommend running the 3.2 tbs if you're swaping the head with a 3.2. Even though Alex mentioned the trick ceramic spacers on the 3.0 tbs, the ports are smaller & not matched to the 3.2 head so flow will suffer a bit.
    Yes, this is a no-brainer, the ceramic spacers are only meant to be used with the 3.0 tb set up and its bottom tray, the 3.0 TB are not matched to the 3.2 head, so I assume people would know to transfer over the TBs at the same time as the bottom of the cylinderhead. While insulation is an advantage, that is only in context to the 3.2 set up lacking that feature... no intent was made to imply the 3.0 TB flowed better or was worth trying to retain for the larger displacement engine etc...... I don't think the spacers/insulators leaked the way the items on the S14 did...so I don't think there was any drawback to the concept, other than $$.

    In addition, those of you who think that off the shelf alpha n chips will work fine with schrick cams are mistaken. My car runs horribly at idle to around 3k, but after that it's a monster. I've put around 3k miles since the rebuild, but the lower rpms haven't improved much. I'm currently in the process of having Mark D'Sylva custom tune my car so I'll post before & after dynos soon to see the difference.
    YES!!!! YES YES and YES... I've been trying to make that point in different forums... if Mark can do your chip for you that is perfect, he's excellent, has experience with that, and he really knows his stuff. Another option is standalone of course, and I hope to make that easy for us real soon...

    http://abloriginalparts.com/pb/wp_e8..._e87080d7.html

    Its even easier for the 3.0 due to grounding the solenoids, not trying to activate them with (+12) signals... I'll see if I can post My DM customer's dyno chart... stock cams, 12.5 pistons, SEM from me.

    Can't really compare chip tuning to SEM, they both have their advantages and disadvantages....you almost can't even compare cost because the pro/con are so different for each....

    Chip tuning allows perfect and complete factory diagnostics, and that is huge to be sure.

    SEM give you some independence as well as additional options not available from the factory.... but it costs more to be sure.

    (nice build AJ...well thought out!)
    Alex Lipowich
    xyobgyn on AOL

    For Sale: E36 325 MTechnic with S54 on stock DME TBA

    Trying to make the world a better place with 5 or now 7 extra throttle bodies at a time.

  9. #9
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    Dyno chart S50B30 12.5 pistons and ABL DTA setup

    Hopefully this comes through... not experienced with the attachements...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Alex Lipowich
    xyobgyn on AOL

    For Sale: E36 325 MTechnic with S54 on stock DME TBA

    Trying to make the world a better place with 5 or now 7 extra throttle bodies at a time.

  10. #10
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    Those are some very nice numbers Alex. Just 12.5 pistons? Everything else stock 3.2?
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobuffs View Post
    Those are some very nice numbers Alex. Just 12.5 pistons? Everything else stock 3.2?
    Sorry not more clear.. While the image on my website is a conversion P&P for a 3.2, the dyno is from a 3.0 with similar kit, but two plugs would be used to the factory harness as there is a vanos computer separate for those engines.

    The above dyno graph is from a modified DM BMW CR engine, a S50B30 (!)

    Destroked to 2989 or whatever was needed for DM spec, Single cam only being tuned of course with vanos active on DTA, 12.5 pistons, stock exhaust, stock 3.0 cams, and stock intake manifold with HFM delete.

    If they threw in some cams and a CF intake, they could really make some power on that engine.. its just begging for better cams now with the bumped compression... Couldn't talk him into it at the time... He did all his own work in his garage in terms of assembly, pistons from Tony at VAC, destroke of crank handled locally, the trick is to use the last set of con rod bearings from the factory, and offset bore the crank. If you move the wrist pin the small amount needed, you can use factory rods and save money. This is an incredibly affordable DM motor that is wickedly powerful and reliable.
    Last edited by M3 Euro LTW; 03-30-2010 at 02:01 PM.
    Alex Lipowich
    xyobgyn on AOL

    For Sale: E36 325 MTechnic with S54 on stock DME TBA

    Trying to make the world a better place with 5 or now 7 extra throttle bodies at a time.

  12. #12
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    I know the motor you speak of. Would be nice to be able to add pistons, cams and a DTA to my motor and see 325 at the wheels.
    It's not speed that kills, it's the speed difference that does. Obviously you aren't going fast enough.

    Turning Benjamins into noise since 1997

    I read a list of the 100 things you MUST do before you die. Funny, "Yelling 'HELP'" didn't make the list!

  13. #13
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    1993 E36 M3 Coupe Euro
    Quote Originally Posted by MILLSSTA View Post
    Hi there. Im new the the M3 world, i have vast knowlage on displacement ect. but what the m3 can take and what its made from is not on my knowlage list.

    Basicly. Im not into FI, i'd rather keep the normal asperiation of the straight 6 3.0l and just work on its displacement.

    Im just here to ask a few simple questions.

    1 which would you recommend in forged pistson compression 11;5.1 or 12;5.1 which can cope better on a daily runner.
    2a would a 3.2 euro m3 crank effect the lift of a 11;5 or 12;5 piston to cause it to impact off the valves/head
    2b or would a 3.0l crank be suitable enough to cope with compression ratios 11;5 or 12;5

    any other tuning information would be great.

    Cheers in advance.

    Hello, I am new here. I am from Taiwan. I have built a S50B32 engine with Single Vanos Schrick 284 cams, Single Vanos Cam Carrier/JE 87.0mm piston(CR:11.5), Bosch 315ml/min. fuel injector(STD 250ml/min.), Customed Chip Program on the standard 1993 3.0L wiring loom and ECU, BMW 4.0L V8 MAF sensor on my 1993 BMW M3. This track car is for local club race event. One of the fastst classic M3 here(We don't have many e36 M3 euro version tuner here in Taiwan.

    I'd like to build another S50B32 engine with the following parts:
    1. Schrick 296 Cams w Duo-Vanos spec.
    2. VANOS elimination kit w. cam position trigger from VAC motorsports
    3. JE 86.5mm piston(CR:12.5) (JE recommend to run race fuel, which one is recommended? VP 109 or others?)
    4. Forged con-rods
    5. COMETIC gasket (0.070" thickness)
    6. Supertech enlarged(+1mm) Inlet/Exhasut valves
    7. Supertech upgraded valve sprintgs and titanium retainer
    8. Carbon Intake Air Box
    9. Standalone ECU (Haltech)

    Is there any one can provide the experiences, tips or caring points to build this race engine? Such as fuel injector specs.,...etc.?

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