The Definitive Suspension Guide for your E36 M3

[PrinceE30]

also, its not clear for newbies (like me) what options to pick for the camber plates

Vorshlag. End of story.

TRM's entry level shocks come with them if you are looking for a good all-in-one package and are planning to add shocks, springs, coil-overs, etc.

[phamine]

I'm pretty much in agreement with the first post. I've setup several STU M3's (including the one that trophied at Nats this year.) The spring rates mentioned are right in the ballpark.

My favorite setup on my car (and the one that I think was the fastest all around) was:

AST 4200's
625F/700R Rates
H&R 28mm F/21mm R Swaybars (Front on soft, rear on stiff)
-3.6 F and -2.1 R Camber
-0.30 Deg Toe F and 0.40 Deg Toe R (Total Toe)
18x9 ET45 F&R w/ 265/35-18 Dunlops
15mm spacer Front / 5mm Spacer Rear
12.8" Front / 12.2" Rear Ride Height

I really liked how the car worked with this setup. The gearing favored a slightly higher speed course design with the 265s. The 17x9/255 setup is much cheaper and IMO a better bang for the buck, but in a fast and sweeper intensive course the 265s will be faster.

I never had good luck trying to run my car with no rear swaybar for autocrossing, but I never worked very hard to tune for it either... I liked the way the car drove with the stock 20mm rear bar and the H&R 21mm (non-M) bar the best. The 21mm bar on the soft setting is only maybe 15% stiffer than the stock bar, so it was a very easy tuning tool to use for changing the rear grip/rotation on the fly.

Isn't your sway bar setup tuned for more understeer? The front should be stiff and the rear soft for oversteer

[YAOGinanM3]

Isn't your sway bar setup tuned for more understeer? The front should be stiff and the rear soft for oversteer

You have it backward.

[PrinceE30]

You have it backward.

Truth.

[BleedsBlue]

No, for this car he has it correct. I know it's different than most cars and even logic, but on this car a stiffer front sway makes it more neutral.

[RacerX]

There are other factors besides just "this bar with these settings." The dampers are playing a large role in this set up and how the sways are set.

Cheers.

[YAOGinanM3]

No, for this car he has it correct. I know it's different than most cars and even logic, but on this car a stiffer front sway makes it more neutral.

To which post is this directed?

[BleedsBlue]

To which post is this directed?

Disregard, I didn't catch the soft front/stiff rear settings you guys were talking about.

Although, that guy does okay at auto-x so the set-up must be good (understatement)

[PrinceE30]

That's one way of putting it...

[CGS12]

This tread is great! Thanks joenationwide. I have been tracking my 99 M3 for 1.5 years now and I think I have reached the limit of the cars abilities. Its bone stock 97000 some od miles. The only mods I've done are PFC-06 pads front and rear, tires are dunlope dirreza star spec's, and sinthetic oils and fluids.

I've been researching suspension packages, I'm just looking for more I guess as the car will only do so much as is. I attended the NJBMWCCA club racing school this year at summit piont main and I was driving the car at its max I think. I was passing e30 M3's with suspension mods and R-comp tires. Managed to keep up with an e46 328i with TCKline SA's and sticky tires. I swear I was hitting the bump stops in the suspension on turn four going in to the shoot.

A friend of mine has recommended the TCKline SA suspension, but after being able to stick with that 328 I'm not so sure its the best package out there. Any suggestions? AST 4100 is cheap and looks great, but uses non- sinthetic hydhralic fluid in those dampers. Moton SA's look like the best, but are quite pricey probubly the best though. That friend of mine that recommended the TCKline suspension, swears by it for the price range, and tracks an e36 M3 with that set up, though the twin tube Koni TCKline package looks out dated technology wise as AST, Moton, and JRZ use mono tube designes.

Any recommendations on suspension packages? Oh and has anyone run the Turner Groupe N Speed world challenge suspension? I assume its stiff as hell!

Thanks,

[YAOGinanM3]

This tread is great! Thanks joenationwide. I have been tracking my 99 M3 for 1.5 years now and I think I have reached the limit of the cars abilities. Its bone stock 97000 some od miles. The only mods I've done are PFC-06 pads front and rear, tires are dunlope dirreza star spec's, and sinthetic oils and fluids.

I've been researching suspension packages, I'm just looking for more I guess as the car will only do so much as is. I attended the NJBMWCCA club racing school this year at summit piont main and I was driving the car at its max I think. I was passing e30 M3's with suspension mods and R-comp tires. Managed to keep up with an e46 328i with TCKline SA's and sticky tires. I swear I was hitting the bump stops in the suspension on turn four going in to the shoot.

A friend of mine has recommended the TCKline SA suspension, but after being able to stick with that 328 I'm not so sure its the best package out there. Any suggestions? AST 4100 is cheap and looks great, but uses non- sinthetic hydhralic fluid in those dampers. Moton SA's look like the best, but are quite pricey probubly the best though. That friend of mine that recommended the TCKline suspension, swears by it for the price range, and tracks an e36 M3 with that set up, though the twin tube Koni TCKline package looks out dated technology wise as AST, Moton, and JRZ use mono tube designes.

Any recommendations on suspension packages? Oh and has anyone run the Turner Groupe N Speed world challenge suspension? I assume its stiff as hell!

Thanks,

LOL! You didn't beat the other cars on the track you beat the other car's drivers and their setup on that track on that day. The lap time differences between all three of these chassis if comparably prepared is completely dependent on driver skill and the type of track they are on. This of course assumes a competent driver is at the helm for comparison. Trust me your bone stock chassis with a 100K on the suspension would not fair well against a well prepared (fresh bushings, alignment and dampers) stock E36 M3 chassis. If the other cars were as poorly prepared as yours you didn't beat them they beat themselves.

[PrinceE30]

I was woefully underwhelmed with the TCK stuff when compared to my current Motons and my old ASTs (don't worry about the fluids...they perform near-as-makes-no-difference to the Motons and are just as comfortable on the street). I'm also a fan of a local group, TRM, who makes a super all-in-one solution that come with camber plates, are adjustable and are valved very well for both the track and street. They are on par in price with ASTs and have been designed for street and track use (limited autocross history, though).

[CGS12]

I was woefully underwhelmed with the TCK stuff when compared to my current Motons and my old ASTs (don't worry about the fluids...they perform near-as-makes-no-difference to the Motons and are just as comfortable on the street). I'm also a fan of a local group, TRM, who makes a super all-in-one solution that come with camber plates, are adjustable and are valved very well for both the track and street. They are on par in price with ASTs and have been designed for street and track use (limited autocross history, though).

Just looked at the TRM web site. That does look like a nicely put together kit! I'm not familiar with TRM though and have not seen anyone using this suspension. I would like to know what damper they sourced, and the brand of springs. Every thing looks like it has good build quality and seems quite custom. I don't think I've ever seen adjustable sway bar attach points on a coilover like this. Great looking stuff, but who has ever tracked this suspension to know if its reliable?

[propcar]

Just looked at the TRM web site. That does look like a nicely put together kit! I'm not familiar with TRM though and have not seen anyone using this suspension. I would like to know what damper they sourced, and the brand of springs. Every thing looks like it has good build quality and seems quite custom. I don't think I've ever seen adjustable sway bar attach points on a coilover like this. Great looking stuff, but who has ever tracked this suspension to know if its reliable?

Prince recommended me the TRM's as well... I got a ride in Rafa (TRM group) E36 and the ride felt very good, a bit firm for my daily driver, but seemed to be more tuned for the track. I'm going to hopefully get a ride in a couple more e36's with the same suspension but set up a bit different less preload etc. to see how they ride.

Here's a thread with some feedback from a guy who tracks his E36 and a bit of information as well.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1459287

[CGS12]

(don't worry about the fluids...they perform near-as-makes-no-difference to the Motons and are just as comfortable on the street).

So I guess you are saying that the Moton's are not that much better than the AST'S?

The AST 4100 look very tempting. If I could afford Moton I would, but the price is to high. I'm trying to build a suspension for a track car that is for DE and hopefully lots of autocross next year. The car will not be street driven much and I grew up driving trucks so a stiff suspension won't bother me. I bought a performance car not a caddy, and I'm not going to coilovers for the "slammed Look". I've been bit by the track bug and will be going over and rebuilding the entire suspension this winter. I just want a suspension setup that I wont have to replace with something better in a year because I've exceeded it limits. A suspension that is quality in design, reliable over the long run, and wont break the bank. I don't think I need double adjustable dampers as I'm not tracking the car for lap times or racing it, though autocross is a different story.

I can see that you have been autocrossing for some time, so would the AST 4100 be the right choice? I'm just trying to get the most for my money which is a 2500 dollar limit, and that includes camber plates. Why did you switch to Moton any way?

[RJ's325ITS]

I have a couple of videos around Road Atlanta with the TRM coilovers, just click my the video link in my sig..

[joenationwide]

(don't worry about the fluids...they perform near-as-makes-no-difference to the Motons and are just as comfortable on the street).

So I guess you are saying that the Moton's are not that much better than the AST'S?

The AST 4100 look very tempting. If I could afford Moton I would, but the price is to high. I'm trying to build a suspension for a track car that is for DE and hopefully lots of autocross next year. The car will not be street driven much and I grew up driving trucks so a stiff suspension won't bother me. I bought a performance car not a caddy, and I'm not going to coilovers for the "slammed Look". I've been bit by the track bug and will be going over and rebuilding the entire suspension this winter. I just want a suspension setup that I wont have to replace with something better in a year because I've exceeded it limits. A suspension that is quality in design, reliable over the long run, and wont break the bank. I don't think I need double adjustable dampers as I'm not tracking the car for lap times or racing it, though autocross is a different story.

I can see that you have been autocrossing for some time, so would the AST 4100 be the right choice? I'm just trying to get the most for my money which is a 2500 dollar limit, and that includes camber plates. Why did you switch to Moton any way?

I have heard that the ASTs are even better than the new entry level Motons. I can't back that up, so take it FWIW, but I understand the entry level Motons do not share many (if any) of the components of their higher end stuff, where AST 4100s are almost the same as 4200s minus the compression adjustability.

A lot of top autoxers are winning on ASTs, the top FStock guys seem to be moving towards them, and now Continental Tire World Challenge is using AST as the spec shock.

I think AST is really the best bang for the buck out now for the E36 M3. I just ordered some, but for a Civic I just bought to run in SMF. My M3 has been on custom spring rate PSS9s, and I have no complaints so no need to switch to AST just yet. But when I drove a buddy's M3 with AST4100s, I was really impressed. I'm no expert, but I feel like the less I notice the suspension, the better it is, and his car just did everything I asked, no drama, no sloppynes, just instant response. If you have the budget, I'd get AST 4100s, Vorshlag camber plates, larger front sway bar, and youre done (assuming all bushings are good).

[PrinceE30]

(don't worry about the fluids...they perform near-as-makes-no-difference to the Motons and are just as comfortable on the street).

So I guess you are saying that the Moton's are not that much better than the AST'S?

The AST 4100 look very tempting. If I could afford Moton I would, but the price is to high. I'm trying to build a suspension for a track car that is for DE and hopefully lots of autocross next year. The car will not be street driven much and I grew up driving trucks so a stiff suspension won't bother me. I bought a performance car not a caddy, and I'm not going to coilovers for the "slammed Look". I've been bit by the track bug and will be going over and rebuilding the entire suspension this winter. I just want a suspension setup that I wont have to replace with something better in a year because I've exceeded it limits. A suspension that is quality in design, reliable over the long run, and wont break the bank. I don't think I need double adjustable dampers as I'm not tracking the car for lap times or racing it, though autocross is a different story.

I can see that you have been autocrossing for some time, so would the AST 4100 be the right choice? I'm just trying to get the most for my money which is a 2500 dollar limit, and that includes camber plates. Why did you switch to Moton any way?

Moton Clubsport -> AST 4000 series -> Moton Race -> AST 5000 series

The difference between the last two has more to do with the inverted design and thus, less weight on the hub side of the equation (and thus less mass to move around when the suspension bounds and rebounds). 99.999% of people are not going to recognize the difference between the top two. The 4100s are MORE than enough for most autocrossers and will do by you right. I used 4100s on my M3 for HPDEs and a season of hardcore autocrossing (over 25 events) and they were a dream. Note: You're going to have to be sure to have some quality 255 Street Touring tires or R-Comps to effectively use them to their ability.

I know a few people who have over 40,000 miles on the ASTs and they are still doing VERY well and feel just a taught as when they bought them. Additionally, all the internals are of similar design to JRZ/Penske/Moton/etc. and can be rebuilt by any reputable shop.

I switched to Moton because I sold my M3 and bought an STX 328is with Moton Race coil-overs on the car already. No need to spend a lot of time and money to get AST 5000 series to have no noticeable gains. Note also that most of the above mentioned companies were all started by the same group of people who originally worked for one of the big shock companies (Koni or JRZ, iirc). All of these shocks are VERY similar when you get to the high end stuff (AST, Moton and Koni are all Dutch - for example - and the founders had worked together at one time - at least this gathered piece-meal is from my limited research on the history of the companies).

Here's something to think about as well...with adjustability comes the potential for making your handling worse. It's pretty easy to set the rebound damping to full soft and NEVER touch it and just work on the driver. When you start to learn more about vehicle dynamics and think you can make the car better with some tinkering, single adjustables will help. The likes of Moton and AST will further help you by having VERY distinctive changes in rebound (and / or compression) damping for each "click" of their shock. There are many shocks (most notably Koni SAs) which are very vague and non-linear with their adjustment. Being able to adjust your shocks but not being able to feel a difference is a waste of money. Your price points allows you some really awesome shocks (AST) with camber plates (get the Vorshlag plates, they are worth the price) that will last you from novice through expert. The 4100s may even be upgradable to 4200s at some point, but you'll have to check with AST to be sure of that.

Before you ask, stick with 550/650 when you start out. It's a stiff enough rate that will allow you to really feel confident whether you're autocrossing or HPDE-ing, but soft enough to not overwhelm the tires (should you use extreme performance street tires like Dunlop Direzza / Yoko AD08 / etc).

If you have the budget, I'd get AST 4100s, Vorshlag camber plates, larger front sway bar, and youre done (assuming all bushings are good).

Make the bar the H&R 28mm and be sure to use their super awesome bushings. They rock and there's minimal need to worry about binding. I think I've only seen one or two really competitive autocross cars that use something larger (and at least one of them was an E46).

[CGS12]

LOL! You didn't beat the other cars on the track you beat the other car's drivers and their setup on that track on that day. The lap time differences between all three of these chassis if comparably prepared is completely dependent on driver skill and the type of track they are on. This of course assumes a competent driver is at the helm for comparison. Trust me your bone stock chassis with a 100K on the suspension would not fair well against a well prepared (fresh bushings, alignment and dampers) stock E36 M3 chassis. If the other cars were as poorly prepared as yours you didn't beat them they beat themselves.

I wouldn't say the other cars at the event were poorly preppared as most of the drivers at the race school were BMWCCA instructors, advanced DE students, or ex NASA racers looking to get back in the game after taking a few years off from racing. I wouldn't say my car is poorly setup either considering my tire choice, PFC-06 break pads that are matched to there rotors, Total Quartz synthetic motor oil(its real synthetic too I checked its MSDS), RE RSM, motorsport race brace, and an over hualed cooling system. Shure the cars suspension is old I know that, I've inspected the whole suspension myself. I left the car stock except for things that commonly break because I wanted to learn on a stock M3 which is so capable the way it came. I also didn't want to spend money I didn't have on a hobby I might not like. Too bad for my wallet I love HPDE. Your absolutly right though, I didn't beat anyone's car its all about the driver. Thats why I havn't modified my car as I was told "step one: modify the driver". I had to drive my M3 consistently and at 10/10ths to pass any of those pesky E30's

Thanks PrinceE30! Awsome advice! I think that the AST 4100s are probubly my best option. Your absolutly right about not needing more than a sinlge adjustible damper. The more capability for adjustment the bigger a chance a novice like me to suspension design could make a car handle bad. This car will never be a race car as its in great condition, it was very well take car of by the previous owners. The spring rates you quoted are about the same other knowledgeable people have told me. As far as tires I'm currently running 235 Dunlop Dirreza star specs all around, its a great tire!

Your right about the history of the various designers of Moton,AST,JRZ,Koni ect. They all seem to have worked together or started out at Koni at some piont. You would think Koni would design a better damper for our cars instead of marketing such an old design.

Oh, I looked into the TRM coilovers. They look really nice, but after just a little research I found that they are modified B&G coilovers. They look exactly the same. Valving could be different though. Makes me wonder where B&G gets there dampers.

Thanks again for the great info!

[RacerX]

For the money, the AST 4100's are certainly a better set up than Clubsports. Clubsports cost a significant amount more and are limited in that they cannot be revalved. So if you want/need to change spring rates you must play with gas pressure to accomodate rates that may fall outside the ideal range. AST's can be custom/revalved to whatever you need. Yes, the clubsports utilize an external canister which is nice as well as being double adjustable but if you're going to spend that much coin why not go to 5200's which is definitely a better set up?

I don't really consider the 4100's a direct comparison in that you're comparing single vs double and then external canister. But if the clubsports say lost the canister and became singles the 4100's would be worlds better. That's at best hypothetical though so it doesn't matter. Value for your money though I don't even see where the clubsports fit in.

One of the huge benefits that AST's have is the ability to have them customized to whatever you need. Few do this of course but it's possible. There is no other damper that offers the same performance, ability to customize, and options that AST does and that's before factoring in price.

The other options out there are not shit but the performance/value is not equal.

Cheers.

[techno550]

Oh, I looked into the TRM coilovers. They look really nice, but after just a little research I found that they are modified B&G coilovers. They look exactly the same. Valving could be different though. Makes me wonder where B&G gets there dampers.

Not sure where you got that information, but its incorrect. Having seen both in person I can also tell you they don't look the same either.

[CGS12]

For the money, the AST 4100's are certainly a better set up than Clubsports. Clubsports cost a significant amount more and are limited in that they cannot be revalved. So if you want/need to change spring rates you must play with gas pressure to accomodate rates that may fall outside the ideal range. AST's can be custom/revalved to whatever you need. Yes, the clubsports utilize an external canister which is nice as well as being double adjustable but if you're going to spend that much coin why not go to 5200's which is definitely a better set up?

I don't really consider the 4100's a direct comparison in that you're comparing single vs double and then external canister. But if the clubsports say lost the canister and became singles the 4100's would be worlds better. That's at best hypothetical though so it doesn't matter. Value for your money though I don't even see where the clubsports fit in.

One of the huge benefits that AST's have is the ability to have them customized to whatever you need. Few do this of course but it's possible. There is no other damper that offers the same performance, ability to customize, and options that AST does and that's before factoring in price.

The other options out there are not shit but the performance/value is not equal.

Cheers.

I was comparing the AST 4100s to the new Moton street sports that Bimmerword tested and are now selling. I think I have settled on the ASTs as the Motons are way to expensive!

Hear is the link to Bimmerworl: http://store.bimmerworld.com/bimmerw...age-p1448.aspx

Not sure where you got that information, but its incorrect. Having seen both in person I can also tell you they don't look the same either.

Are you shure these dampers look almost identical. Both are monotube 18 way rebound/compression ajustable, both have independant adjustment of the coil spring and
damper body. Even the attach pionts for the swaybars are identical except that they are painted a different color.

B&G coilovers:http://www.b-gsuspension.com/coilovers.php

TRM coilovers:http://www.racersmarket.net/index.ph...mart&Itemid=93

You camber plates also look identical to the ones on these D2 coilovers: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1270540

[techno550]

Are you shure these dampers look almost identical. Both are monotube 18 way rebound/compression ajustable, both have independant adjustment of the coil spring and
damper body. Even the attach pionts for the swaybars are identical except that they are painted a different color.

I'm quite sure. We also need to update the pictures on the TRM site. We revised the camber plates as well as lengthened the tube that attaches to the upright and added the swaybar tab to it.

In all cases (old and new camber plate design), the camber plates are different from any of the ones posted. The dampers also aren't "18 way adjustable", no where near that many clicks... Completely different internals and adjusters.
They do both have adjustable ride height independent of the spring height, and the TRM coilovers don't use those sway bar attachment points anymore. The lower tube now has an attachment point that we also don't use.

So other than having a similar feature, they are completely different things.

"looks similar" in this case means "is completely different but if you squint hard enough you might have a hard time telling them apart not having driven on either or seen them up close."

Comparing suspensions on "things that look similar" can be a bit misleading. A koni and a bilstein are nothing alike, but both can look very similar, and in many cases both are yellow. I would recommend comparing suspensions based on functionality instead of "similar colors or shapes".

[PrinceE30]

Your right about the history of the various designers of Moton,AST,JRZ,Koni ect. They all seem to have worked together or started out at Koni at some piont. You would think Koni would design a better damper for our cars instead of marketing such an old design.

Look at Koni 2800 series. Aluminumn body, monotube dampers. Most are made to order and are on par with anything done by Moton or the likes. $$$. Old doesn't mean bad. If it does what you want, who cares how the valving is done? Plenty of World Challenge Corvettes use Konis (as well as others) and they consistently do well place high.

[CGS12]

Look at Koni 2800 series. Aluminumn body, monotube dampers. Most are made to order and are on par with anything done by Moton or the likes. $$$. Old doesn't mean bad. If it does what you want, who cares how the valving is done? Plenty of World Challenge Corvettes use Konis (as well as others) and they consistently do well place high.

I'm not saying Koni is junk far from it! I rode in a E36 M3 with TCKline SA kit last friday and the car felt amazing. It made me realize how worn my old OEM suspension is, and thats why I've been doing research on a good replacement/upgrade. I'm just kind of dissapionted that koni doesn't have a track ready coilover suspension for the E36. Their online cataloge only shows them selling the yellow strut insurts for the M3. They do have a 2800 series coilover package for the E46, so why not are cars? I guess maybe they don't see a market? It seems that besides TCKline's stuff there realy isn't much for the e36 M3 Koni wise. The TCKline stuff just seems like an old design, not as nice as other companies.

Hey what bushings for suspension would you recomend?