Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26

Thread: Reduced the Negative Camber on my Rear Wheels - Very Pleased!

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,382
    My Cars
    BMW

    Reduced the Negative Camber on my Rear Wheels - Very Pleased!

    After I put the Vogtland lowering springs in the rear last October, I measured the camber of the rear wheels, they came out at:

    Left Rear -2.0 degrees
    Right Rear -2.7 degrees

    The factory spec. for my car -2.0 degrees

    In my modded vehicle I have much anti-roll stiffness because:


    • The rear Eibach sway is 3.7 times stiffer than stock
    • The front Eibach sway is 2.1 times stiffer than stock
    • Both sway bars have polyurethane bushings
    • The Vogtlands springs have lowered the center of gravity


    Well, I reasoned, with all this anti-roll stiffness in my car, why do I need all this negative camber? I decided to shoot for -1.0 degrees (conservative, I know, but baby steps.....)

    So, yesterday I reduced the camber and measured:

    Left Rear -1.0 degrees
    Right Rear -1.1 degrees

    Took her out for a spin. The rear of the car is much quieter now (wasn't expecting that, prolly due to NOT hearing so much tire squish). The car corners like a dream! Highly recommended (if you have the gear)!




  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    PuertoRico
    Posts
    51
    My Cars
    M3
    nah i have FULL NEGATIVE CAMBER.. and the looks is Awesome..

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Martinsville VA
    Posts
    2,476
    My Cars
    2003-525i BMW
    Like what you did, I did the same and my tires are lasting a lot longer and I like the ride better also.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Omaha, NE
    Posts
    3,881
    My Cars
    1998 528i 5-spd 102K
    Do you have the step-by-step instructions onw how to reduce camber from factory 2 degrees to 1 degree for those who want to do it?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,556
    My Cars
    2003 525i
    Quote Originally Posted by cnn View Post
    Do you have the step-by-step instructions onw how to reduce camber from factory 2 degrees to 1 degree for those who want to do it?
    It's the big eccentric bolt. Numbers 15, 15 and 17:

    http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...19&hg=33&fg=30

    It'd help a massive amount to have the car on a Hunter Alignment rack...simple twist of the bolt and nut.

    Aside, be cautious in that I SNAPPED one of the bolts years ago doing my own alignment! I ordered two new ones and replaced them. Me? Next time you guys do an alignment....replace 15, 16 and 17. It's totally overkill, but smart.

    The bolt/nut in question...it's the one you see when you're parked behind your e39; they are very visible and easily accessible...like Britney on crack.

    You could snag one of these:

    http://www.advantagewheelalignment.c...ber_gauge.html

    And there are cheapo diy methods, but during your next 4 wheel alignment, just tell the Tech to adjust the rear camber to your desired specs. Graham, an aggressive camber is one of the elements used to make the car twistalicious...but you are happier with a more neutral, less aggressive. Perhaps the effect you gained was also due to the fact that one of your wheels was nearly off by nearly a full degree as compared to the other? Regardless, you're happy, so enjoy.
    Last edited by bimmerfiver; 01-04-2010 at 10:55 AM.
    "I'd smash that (Jennifer Connelly) like a failed coup in sub-Saharan Africa."
    ~Macktheknife in my epic Jennifer Connelly OT Thread

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,382
    My Cars
    BMW
    Quote Originally Posted by Poolman View Post
    Like what you did, I did the same and my tires are lasting a lot longer and I like the ride better also.
    I'm glad you told me. I'm a little skittish about messing with the alignment, but when you look at professionals doing it, it looks complicated. Its not, they use lasers and everything because they want to do it FAST. I don't care if it takes me an hour and a half.

    Quote Originally Posted by cnn View Post
    Do you have the step-by-step instructions onw how to reduce camber from factory 2 degrees to 1 degree for those who want to do it?
    See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by bimmerfiver View Post

    The bolt/nut in question...it's the one you see when you're parked behind your e39; they are very visible and easily accessible...like Britney on crack.
    Keith, that tongue-in-cheek Irish sense of humor. I love it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bimmerfiver View Post

    Graham, an aggressive camber is one of the elements used to make the car twistalicious...but you are happier with a more neutral, less aggressive. Perhaps the effect you gained was also due to the fact that one of your wheels was nearly off by nearly a full degree as compared to the other? Regardless, you're happy, so enjoy.
    Well, on a car with NO roll, the camber angle should be about -0.5 degrees, it is related to the way a normal tire distorts as it compresses (zero roll track cars use a camber angle at about that magnitude). So -0.5 degrees is the 'promised land'. I'll never get there with an e39.....

    With all due respect to Crossfire M3 (above), I personally don't like that 'Triumph TR6' cambered look. And I want, when I have the money, to get some modern tires. The newer low profile tires need smaller camber to operate properly IMO.

    Cnn, this is how I adjusted camber:

    Measure the present camber with the car on a flat surface (like a concrete garage floor). I did it using a short piece of angled aluminum from Home Depot (about 5 dollars) held against the wheel edge. The angle was measured with a Wixey WR300 digital angle gauge (40 dollars from Amazon). See the photo below:



    If your wheels have machined flats then it is even easier. If your wheels are wider than the tires then you can buy a digital level and its easier still.

    IMPORTANT: You will need to zero the Wixey gauge by placing it on the ground next to the tire and press the 'ZERO' button (the gauge has arrows to indicate positive and negative camber).

    Adjust the camber by putting the rear of the car on ramps. Loosen the nut on the inner part of the swing arm (see the photo on the bottom of page 330-14 in Bentley). Using an 18mm wrench rotate the bolt to get a new camber angle. Next, holding the bolt stationary with a wrench, tighten the nut. Do the other side. Lower the car to the ground. Drive the car a short distance to settle the suspension and then return to the garage and remeasure. If you judged it right, you are almost done. Put the rear of the car up on ramps again. Now, mark the position of the bolt on the sub-frame, remove the nut and replace it with a BRAND NEW one and tighten it with the bolt lined up on your mark (and finish with the torque wrench). You have finished your rear camber adjustment, however the toe will need adjusting (my car had very visible toe-in after this procedure).
    Last edited by Graham E39 528i; 01-05-2010 at 02:29 PM.




  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    5,643
    My Cars
    540i/6, 02 Excursion Pow
    I also have my cars aligned this same way. Much more balanced feel and longer tire life.

    Don't do it at home though, have it done at a shop with the proper equipment.
    "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough. - Mario Andretti"

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Jackson, MS
    Posts
    903
    My Cars
    2002 525i Sport/5
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham E39 528i View Post
    After I put the Vogtland lowering springs in the rear last October, I measured the camber of the rear wheels, they came out at:

    Left Rear -2.0 degrees
    Right Rear -2.7 degrees

    The factory spec. for my car -2.0 degrees

    In my modded vehicle I have much anti-roll stiffness because:


    • The rear Eibach sway is 3.7 times stiffer than stock
    • The front Eibach sway is 2.1 times stiffer than stock
    • Both sway bars have polyurethane bushings
    • The Vogtlands springs have lowered the center of gravity


    Well, I reasoned, with all this anti-roll stiffness in my car, why do I need all this negative camber? I decided to shoot for -1.0 degrees (conservative, I know, but baby steps.....)

    So, yesterday I reduced the camber and measured:

    Left Rear -1.0 degrees
    Right Rear -1.1 degrees

    Took her out for a spin. The rear of the car is much quieter now (wasn't expecting that, prolly due to NOT hearing so much tire squish). The car corners like a dream! Highly recommended (if you have the gear)!
    Good job Graham! Once I roll out the rear fenders the right way, I will use your method to adjust the rear camber in order to accommodate the extra protein in the rear.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Arida Zona
    Posts
    23,903
    My Cars
    z3
    Interesting. You are out of factory spec now iirc but you will definitely experience less tire wear and quieter noise. However I will note that if you ever really pushed the car, this will negatively impact handling. Around town it probably feels better, more natural, but at its limits it will perform worse. Either way, as long as you enjoy it is all that matters

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,556
    My Cars
    2003 525i
    Quote Originally Posted by blackxs View Post
    Interesting. You are out of factory spec now iirc but you will definitely experience less tire wear and quieter noise. However I will note that if you ever really pushed the car, this will negatively impact handling. Around town it probably feels better, more natural, but at its limits it will perform worse. Either way, as long as you enjoy it is all that matters
    I'm always looking to outrun Imperial starships. Not the local bulk cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships, now. I take camber so seriously, I break eccentric bolts in half. Then again, Chewie prolly started the damage and left the bolt behind for me to align. What do you expect from an animal that only knows one consonant, the letter 'R':

    http://www.thuvien-it.net/home/ngoai...tExamplesA.jpg
    Last edited by bimmerfiver; 01-04-2010 at 05:38 PM.
    "I'd smash that (Jennifer Connelly) like a failed coup in sub-Saharan Africa."
    ~Macktheknife in my epic Jennifer Connelly OT Thread

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Martinsville VA
    Posts
    2,476
    My Cars
    2003-525i BMW
    Mine is set up the same way and drives just great. Tire wear is far better and I have pushed mine as far as I really want to and she handles better than before--now getting to how far I want to or anyone else wants to push the living hell out of it-I won't be racing on the roads any more at my age---but I damn sure like the way she goes through the curves up and down these Moantains here in Southern Virginia.
    I gets the giggles everytime some smart ase trys to get on my bumper in the turns around here, they don't stay there long.
    My car was done on the wrack and the ecentric on the drivers side wouldn't let the camber off as much as the pasengers side. I don't know if there are bolts with different cams built into them, but would like to know so as to make both sides the same.
    Last edited by Poolman; 01-04-2010 at 05:39 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    5,643
    My Cars
    540i/6, 02 Excursion Pow
    The -2 degrees on these cars is more than they'll ever need. I didn't run that much negative on some of my SCCA cars. I'm right around a -1 and can push my car just as far as I could before if not even further. The car is more balance now and feels more stable at high speed. I like it.
    "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough. - Mario Andretti"

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Martinsville VA
    Posts
    2,476
    My Cars
    2003-525i BMW
    I'm like .74 on passenger side rear and like 1.04 on driverside--would like for them to be the same--the elderly gent that did the job said the driverside wouldn't go any further with out a change of cam or a different bolt with more lobe on it. Wouldn't take much--but I likes whats I gots--Jared those new struts and shocks are the ticket--just hope they don't get me one--cars is nice and smooth with the new Bilstein's---

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burlington, Canada
    Posts
    272
    My Cars
    1998 540i
    This has been added to my project list.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    5,643
    My Cars
    540i/6, 02 Excursion Pow
    Quote Originally Posted by Poolman View Post
    I'm like .74 on passenger side rear and like 1.04 on driverside--would like for them to be the same--the elderly gent that did the job said the driverside wouldn't go any further with out a change of cam or a different bolt with more lobe on it. Wouldn't take much--but I likes whats I gots--Jared those new struts and shocks are the ticket--just hope they don't get me one--cars is nice and smooth with the new Bilstein's---
    Glad to hear they are doing well.

    There is a limit to the cam bolts. You also have to watch how the toe and camber affect each other.
    "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough. - Mario Andretti"

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Saint Louis, MO
    Posts
    116
    My Cars
    01 M5
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham E39 528i View Post
    I'm glad you told me. I'm a little skittish about messing with the alignment, but when you look at professionals doing it, it looks complicated. Its not, they use lasers and everything because they want to do it FAST. I don't care if it takes me an hour and a half.



    See below.



    Keith, that tongue-in-cheek Irish sense of humor. I love it.



    Well, on a car with NO roll, the camber angle should be about -0.5 degrees, it is related to the way a normal tire distorts as it compresses (zero roll track cars use a camber angle at about that magnitude). So -0.5 degrees is the 'promised land'. I'll never get there with an e39.....

    With all due respect to Crossfire M3 (above), I personally don't like that 'Triumph TR6' cambered look. And I want, when I have the money, to get some modern tires. The newer low profile tires need smaller camber to operate properly IMO.

    Cnn, this is how I adjusted camber:

    Measure the present camber with the car on a flat surface (like a concrete garage floor). I did it using a short piece of angled aluminum from Home Depot (about 5 dollars) held against the wheel edge. The angle was measured with a Wixey WR300 digital angle gauge (40 dollars from Amazon). See the photo below:







    If your wheels have machined flats then it is even easier. If your wheels are wider than the tires then you can buy a digital level and its easier still.



    IMPORTANT: You will need to zero the Wixey gauge by placing it on the ground next to the tire and press the 'ZERO' button (the gauge has arrows to indicate positive and negative camber).



    Adjust the camber by putting the rear of the car on ramps. Loosen the nut on the inner part of the swing arm (see the photo on the bottom of page 330-14 in Bentley). Using an 18mm wrench rotate the bolt to get a new camber angle. Next, holding the bolt stationary with a wrench, tighten the nut. Do the other side. Lower the car to the ground. Drive the car a short distance to settle the suspension and then return to the garage and remeasure. If you judged it right, you are almost done. Put the rear of the car up on ramps again. Now, mark the position of the bolt on the sub-frame, remove the nut and replace it with a new one and tighten it with the bolt lined up on your mark. You are DONE!

    for all of u attempting to do this on ur driveway, DON'T. theres a lil more to alignments than sticking a peice of metal and an angle gauge on a wheel. first, whenever u adjust camber or caster on any car u change toe(thats what tears through tires). second, when u change toe in the rear, unless u keep the thrust angle unchanged(which u will have no idea) u will cause a crooked stering wheel postion

    oh and most equipment now uses infared and it has nothing to do with being quik. it allows us to get the mesurments as close as .01 of a degree
    Last edited by arkangel2487; 01-05-2010 at 02:10 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    Never drive faster than ur gaurdian angel can fly

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,556
    My Cars
    2003 525i
    Quote Originally Posted by arkangel2487 View Post
    for all of u attempting to do this on ur driveway, DON'T. theres a lil more to alignments than sticking a peice of metal and an angle gauge on a wheel. first, whenever u adjust camber or caster on any car u change toe(thats what tears through tires). second, when u change toe in the rear, unless u keep the thrust angle unchanged(which u will have no idea) u will cause a crooked stering wheel postion

    oh and most equipment now uses infared and it has nothing to do with being quik. it allows us to get the mesurments as close as .01 of a degree
    Word up. I do my own alignments now. The rear takes time.
    "I'd smash that (Jennifer Connelly) like a failed coup in sub-Saharan Africa."
    ~Macktheknife in my epic Jennifer Connelly OT Thread

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,382
    My Cars
    BMW
    Quote Originally Posted by mmm635 View Post
    Good job Graham! Once I roll out the rear fenders the right way, I will use your method to adjust the rear camber in order to accommodate the extra protein in the rear.
    I'm very pleased. I was starting to worry that your e39 wasn't getting as much luvvin' (with all that talk about Porsches).

    Quote Originally Posted by bimmerfiver View Post
    I'm always looking to outrun Imperial starships. Not the local bulk cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships, now. I take camber so seriously, I break eccentric bolts in half. Then again, Chewie prolly started the damage and left the bolt behind for me to align. What do you expect from an animal that only knows one consonant, the letter 'R'.
    INDEED!

    Quote Originally Posted by Poolman View Post
    Mine is set up the same way and drives just great. Tire wear is far better and I have pushed mine as far as I really want to and she handles better than before--now getting to how far I want to or anyone else wants to push the living hell out of it-I won't be racing on the roads any more at my age---but I damn sure like the way she goes through the curves up and down these Moantains here in Southern Virginia.
    I gets the giggles everytime some smart ase trys to get on my bumper in the turns around here, they don't stay there long.
    My car was done on the wrack and the ecentric on the drivers side wouldn't let the camber off as much as the pasengers side. I don't know if there are bolts with different cams built into them, but would like to know so as to make both sides the same.
    Ahhh. Virginia.....

    Quote Originally Posted by jnyost View Post
    The -2 degrees on these cars is more than they'll ever need. I didn't run that much negative on some of my SCCA cars. I'm right around a -1 and can push my car just as far as I could before if not even further. The car is more balance now and feels more stable at high speed. I like it.
    I'm so glad to hear this, I thought I was the only one breaking that commandment: "Thou shalt not do one's own alignment"

    Quote Originally Posted by jnyost View Post
    There is a limit to the cam bolts. You also have to watch how the toe and camber affect each other.
    That's true. -1.0 degrees is about as much as I can do with the present cam amplitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkangel2487 View Post
    for all of u attempting to do this on ur driveway, DON'T. theres a lil more to alignments than sticking a peice of metal and an angle gauge on a wheel. first, whenever u adjust camber or caster on any car u change toe(thats what tears through tires). second, when u change toe in the rear, unless u keep the thrust angle unchanged(which u will have no idea) u will cause a crooked stering wheel postion

    oh and most equipment now uses infared and it has nothing to do with being quik. it allows us to get the mesurments as close as .01 of a degree
    Yes, I have very visible toe-in on the rear of my car now. When I have some time this weekend, I will adjust the toe (to factory spec.).

    0.01 degrees! That's nuts. Tires are imperfectly round, they have bumps and lumps. BMW calls for setting the rear camber on our cars to an accuracy of plus or minus 5 minutes of arc, which is plus or minus 0.08 degrees.

    TWO FURTHER COMMENTS:


    • I would recommend replacing the aluminum angle bar with one made of steel (the aluminum has a little flex in it).
    • Reducing camber will cause the top of the tire to move outwards towards the fender arch ~7mm, those with extra wide tires need to be mindful of this.

    -Graham




  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Amsterdam, NY
    Posts
    5,632
    My Cars
    97 528i 87 528e 65/74MG
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham E39 528i View Post

    TWO FURTHER COMMENTS:


    • I would recommend replacing the aluminum angle bar with one made of steel (the aluminum has a little flex in it).

    -Graham
    No aluminum is a significantly stiffer material than steel is, thus size for size the aluminum angle will be stiffer and more resistant to flexing than its steel counterpart.
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Long Beach, California,USA
    Posts
    510
    My Cars
    1998 BMW 528i, 1941 Ford
    +1 on getting a pro with the correct equipment to do this!

    I had my camber set to those specs also.

    I like it. \/\/\/\/\/

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    379
    My Cars
    2001 540i; 2001 750iL
    I too wanted less negative camber in the rear after putting in Eibachs, and told my local BMW dealer to dial it down closer to -1. I took it in yesterday, and the tech said he couldn't do it as it would throw out the other dimensions. I didn't think it would have been a problem, but I didn't want to question him since he showed me what he was doing. He put the car in the normal specs, but I still have to wonder if he was right or not?

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    5,643
    My Cars
    540i/6, 02 Excursion Pow
    Quote Originally Posted by atakordie View Post
    I too wanted less negative camber in the rear after putting in Eibachs, and told my local BMW dealer to dial it down closer to -1. I took it in yesterday, and the tech said he couldn't do it as it would throw out the other dimensions. I didn't think it would have been a problem, but I didn't want to question him since he showed me what he was doing. He put the car in the normal specs, but I still have to wonder if he was right or not?
    Toe and camber affect each other in the rear. Trying to take one too far can throw the other one off. He still should have been able to get down to 1.5 or better though (I am).
    "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough. - Mario Andretti"

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    379
    My Cars
    2001 540i; 2001 750iL
    Quote Originally Posted by jnyost View Post
    Toe and camber affect each other in the rear. Trying to take one too far can throw the other one off. He still should have been able to get down to 1.5 or better though (I am).
    I had the feeling he didn't want to mess with the resulting rear toe change. Perhaps I could take it back to the dealer today and ask for a redo on the rear, or just live with it...it will work fine like it is for now.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    5,643
    My Cars
    540i/6, 02 Excursion Pow
    Find a nice local shop that will work with you. Most dealers won't vary from spec.
    "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough. - Mario Andretti"

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,382
    My Cars
    BMW
    Quote Originally Posted by jnyost View Post
    Find a nice local shop that will work with you. Most dealers won't vary from spec.
    Or you could do it yourself. I'm currently running -1.1 degrees on all four wheels. Adjust the rear camber before you adjust the rear toe.




Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •